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 Baali Haven!

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Dragatus
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:25 am

I haven't played TFN yet since I only recently found out about it from this forum. My impression from what I've read is that the game systems have been revamped but the quests and locations are still largely the same. Assuming that is correct, here are my thoughts on the issue of infiltrating the chantry.

It depends on whether the Baali player can only gain access to the Tremere chantry or if the chantry appartement is an alternative to the Skyline appartement. In the first case I am against having any sort of feat requirement in order to gain entry. Persuasion is the only logical choice, but that would force all Baali to pick the same social skill and as noted Persuasion is already overused. Basing it on subterfuge would fix the problem of using an overused stat, but on the other hand it would make it out of line with the rest of the game and it still doesn't fix the problem of forcing all Baali who don't want to stay stuck in one of them crappy places above the pawnshop to develop the same social skill. I think the best thing to do in this case would be to handle the Tremere chantry appartement the same way it was handled in Bloodlines: the player earns Strauss' trust by dealing with the plague bearer and gargoyle issues.


But if the Baali has the option of getting either the chantry appartement or the Skyline appartement (or even both) then I am not opposed to a stat requirement. I think that for the sake of consistency Persuasion would be the best choice even though it already is used so much.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:02 am

A thought just occurred to me, Zer0. A lot of the lower level disciplines from the p&p version of Daimoinon were centered around ascertaining people's weaknesses and exploiting them. Even though Sense the Sin, Fear of the Void Below, and Psychomachia aren't used in TFN, perhaps with a high enough level in Daimoinon, there could be special dialog options that the Baali pc could use against Strauss (and even other npc's) to get what they want. Just a thought.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:47 am

@ Feral: I agree with most of your statements. But having the player "sent to Vienna"? I don't know. I'd say, a regent who can't deal with an unruly apprentice can pack his bags for the same destination.
Well, if anybody found out that Strauss invited a Bali into the pyramid...

For Skyline and chantry haven, imo the player should be able to chose one. So when the prince offers the skyline haven, and the Baali pc has not yet talked to Strauss about the matter, make a line saying: "I want to talk to my regent first." If the pc already has decided to infiltrate the pyramid, don't offer the skyline haven at all. And if the player accepts the prince's offer, there should be no more chance to talk to Strauss about getting into the pyramid.

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:36 am

*wakes up, yawns, makes herself bowl of cereal*

Okay guys, stfu and sit down Very Happy Take a cookie.


Zer0, what you must determine first is that if the Sire was already desguised as a Tremere or not. If he was not, then, Strauss has absolutly no reason to believe the PC is a Tremere (except if the PC is good at bullshitting, "my sire was a Tremere, but he was sent under another Regent's watch to keep an eye on the Anarch for the clan's sake, but he didn't tell you because he doubted you ; but now that he's dead I wish to enter under your watch, because he should have trusted you...".. Subterfuge !).
The problem we are always stumbling upon in Bloodlines is that the PC never gets a chance to speak to his Sire, and hence, he shouldn't KNOW what his clan is unless someone tells him. Oddly, in the game, your PC knows what is his/her Clan (by asking Bertram about the clans, for instance). The Malkies and Nossies are exceptions of course, since Jack tells you you are right at the beginning.


To convince Strauss to let you in, I'd go with a good Research skill (showing that you have learnt the ways of the Tremere), a few well placed questions and answers, and high enough subterfuge NOT to show that you're lying.
Intimidation would work if the PC gets knowledge of the Lord's phone number ("i'm working for the clan but Regent Strauss does not allow me to fulfill the goals of the clan" -> you can intimidate people by being soft spoken, "maybe I should talk to your manager..."), Seduction might work if we are talking about pleasing the Tremere as they like it and not offering them sexual services (speak about occult powers, speak about how you can make people do what you want them to for the sake of the clan by having them in love with your ways, agree and blink to what he says... if he "likes" you, you get in easier). Persuasion is the most efficient way, of course, with proper good arguments.
Of course, you also have to be able to talk Strauss into NOT taking a sample of your blood to test it to be sure that you are, indeed of the Tremere lineage. If you agree to it, two steps further, Strauss will have completed the ritual and he will kill you for "threatening the Tremere House"... Or stake you and keep you for experiments Very Happy
(he just might keep it quiet and have "enemies closer" by letting you use the Apprentice room, until you get rid of the Prince for him, and then, off you go to the ocean like the Kuei Jin ending ; he used you and knew you were lying all along, and he gets all the credit from the pyramid, while not having wet himself to the Camarilla higher instances Very Happy)


Blackmailing Strauss : I think blackmailing and holding your Regent by the balls is actually very Tremerish. It's all about the balance of powers. The Regent must accept until he can get rid of you (by sending you through trading apprentices or by proving you have been breaking Tremere Oath and Camarilla laws). Strauss might, MIGHT even appreciate how promising you are by having the balls to extract stuff out of him. "You'll get far, son of a bitch D:"


I think the book/letter/diary should have been written by the Sire, actually, who would have left it somewhere where you two met before you got embraced (maybe the Asylum ? There is an empty box next to the bar tender...)

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:11 pm

The player is new to Santa Monica.
I would place the letter somewhere in the theater, as if the sire had it with him all along and wanted to pass it to the childe at a proper time but because of being captured well he thought to dump it on the theater floor somewhere at the back from where he was executed, and as I recall the floor scene was quite not empty he could've drop it somewhere between those boxes or what the heck is laying around there.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:48 pm

*Deja vu again!*

Haven't we already had this discussion a few pages back in this very thread? I guess we never came to a consensus, but I thought that we had already established the high likelihood of the Baali player posing as a Tremere, and the fact that a Tremere bloodtest would be ineffective against a Baali due to the fact that they share the same source blood (Salubri). It'd be like a Gangrel and a City Gangrel -- in the blood, what's the difference? As far as I can tell, the only real difference between Baali and Tremere is philosophy -- and the fact that the Baali were "properly" Embraced as to the Tremere's weird blood ritual destroying Salubri. Besides, I don't think there's dialog or script in the game for Strauss to perform a bloodtest on the player, is there? It just makes a lot more sense to me to have the Baali player pose as a Tremere than just be clanless. When Daimoinon starts getting used, who in their right mind is just gonna think "wow, what an interesting discipline choice for a fledgling Caitiff"? It seems to me that a clanless Baali would face more problems than one posing as a Tremere. Just sayin'. Now, back to my dragons...
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:10 pm

Voraxith wrote:
Now, back to my dragons...


NOOOOO take me with you!
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:40 pm

Claudia wrote:
*wakes up, yawns, makes herself bowl of cereal*

Blood cereals!? Those devilish Tremere and their unclean ways!

Claudia wrote:

Of course, you also have to be able to talk Strauss into NOT taking a sample of your blood to test it to be sure that you are, indeed of the Tremere lineage. If you agree to it, two steps further, Strauss will have completed the ritual and he will kill you for "threatening the Tremere House"... Or stake you and keep you for experiments Very Happy

Not necessarily. After diablerie of Saulot Tremere blood is nearly indistinguishible from Salubri. Since by blood Baali are Salubri, same goes for Baali. Noticing any difference requires Taumaturgy 6, if memory serves in regard to MET of Thau paths. And even if Strauss is good enough to see the slight differences, it could be all easily explained away by the Sire being from House Flambeou, for example. So unless he suspects foul play PC should pass.

As for the rest of your comment: sound ideas.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:30 pm

Uncle, I don't think the theatre is the right place for the letter. First the sire and childe are dragged inside staked. So how could the sire drop a letter somewhere without being noticed in the short time the prince needs for his speech?
Then the pc can only get to the theatre after reaching downtown, and has no real reason to go there before the Mitnick quest.
So most probably the pc will have talked to Strauss before having found the letter.
And for the letter being hidden in the Asylum. Why not? If you look out of the window in the embrace cutscene, you can see that the sire's apartment, or wherever the embrace takes place is right across the street from the Asylum.
Furthermore the pc seems to come from somewhere in or near LA. Why else would he meet Santha in Hollywood. And, as a Malk, the response to Isaak sending them for another copy of the tape is something along the lines of: "My former life knew many places. I will revisit them."

I don't know much about the blood, or the blackmailing habits of clan Tremere. But as a means of getting in, perhaps accusing Strauss' current aprentice of being a spy could be an idea. Of course the pc shouldn't mention Baali or Salubri in this case. Instead they should convince the regent that his apprentice is Tremere Antitribu.

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:49 am

The PC was embraced in Santa Monica, in front of the Asylum, which you can see through the window during the Embrace scene. This is why I guessed the [information] could be in the Asylum...

Feral : I agree, however, by tracing the lineage back to lower generations, Strauss may rise an eyebrow as he doesn't know anyone he's seen as being lineage members. Now I don't expect all Regents to know everyone, but by seeing their true names and faces and still have no idea who they all are... Sending in a letter to Vienna asking for who is this [great great great grand sire of the PC] is ? and Vienna telling "not one of us, not in our records"...
Of course this has no effect right now, but on the long term (providing the PC has the cammie ending, because if he turns anarch or independant, Strauss will hunt down the guy before word gets out his chantry is too open)
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:30 pm

Why would Strauss want to know the exact lineage? If the sire was already successfuly masquerading as a Tremere the Regent has no reason to suspect foul play and he should be satisfied with the blood being Tremere-like.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:16 pm

I have to agree with Dragatus on that because the Baali sire was successfully masquerading as Tremere, why would anyone suspect the childe is anything other than Tremere. Who's to say the sire didn't have his own Chantry in another city or nearby?

Fortunately for the player, the sire already convinced everyone that he/she was Tremere so all the player has to do is keep up the act and their good to go. The player doesn't have to convince anyone he/she is Tremere, that was already done for them, they just have to keep the charade going.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:23 pm

Or, equally well, the whole lineage might have posed as Tremere Twisted Evil
By Clanbook Baali, that is what most Baali do. Tremere established Astors, Tremere Gestapo, for a reason...
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:22 pm

Feral wrote:
Or, equally well, the whole lineage might have posed as Tremere Twisted Evil
By Clanbook Baali, that is what most Baali do. Tremere established Astors, Tremere Gestapo, for a reason...

That's what I was thinking too.

On another note, I was thinking the book could be given to the player by an agent of the Baali elders in San Francisco; Don Benedict or Domingo. What do you think of this idea?
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:25 pm

Strauss might want to know if the Sire had diablerized...
Then again, remember, Tremere kindred always doubt and always test, just in case Very Happy There is no place for trust and assumptions in this back stabbing world Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:43 pm

AHA!!! At last I found it! The Baali's "bible" is called "The Delicate Maul of Bright Shadows". I'm going to place some of these pages in the form of a book in the mailbox at the beginning of the game for the Baali character which upon picking up will set the quest in motion.

YAY ME! Go Zer0, it's your birthday! Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:33 pm

Ha! I found that site, too, Zer0, but it's not canon. It's a fanmade thing that they actually "borrowed" from another game. Still pretty damn good, though.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:15 pm

Claudia wrote:
Strauss might want to know if the Sire had diablerized...
Then again, remember, Tremere kindred always doubt and always test, just in case Very Happy There is no place for trust and assumptions in this back stabbing world Smile

Trust has to be earned. Blind trust is Faith, which should be reserved for religion.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:53 am

Voraxith wrote:
Ha! I found that site, too, Zer0, but it's not canon. It's a fanmade thing that they actually "borrowed" from another game. Still pretty damn good, though.

It's not? Boo... well it still sounded convincing so I'd rather use their "made-up" Baali bible than my own. I created the book last night and it reads very well. I think I'm going to reskin the diary model specifically for this book and make the cover black with a large red engraced pentagram on the cover, then make it look dirty and old.

Yay for Photoshop, this will be fun!
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:34 pm

This quest is about 95% complete. I just need to finish the book skins and the icon graphic, as well as setup the lip files for the new lines for LaCroix and Strauss, then I will be done. I'm beta testing it over and over again choosing every possible combination to the haven approach, then fixing bugs that I find. So far all of the events are working very smoothly and I'm quite proud for setting this up, it hasn't been easy.

This will definitely be one of the larger features of TFN 1.1, but a much needed one. Even I want to play as a Baali because of this alternate side quest.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:18 pm

Yummy... I can't wait for 1.1, even I couldnt finish my first playtrough of 1.0 yet (Baali). I'm being opressed by manipulative elder monsters, without even getting X-mas bonus out of it! Laughing My tutor so resembles LaCroix... Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:34 pm

Oh man, if you're playing a Baali in TFN 1.0 then you will definitely want to ditch that game and start over when 1.1 comes out. You'd be missing soooo much!
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