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 Baali Haven!

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:57 pm

Mokie wrote:
...so there would have to be something in the game explaining Clan Baali but without associating the PC with the Baali as that would result in the PC's execution. Possibly a random note appears in the player's mailbox/email explaining the situation, or even better a book. I'm sure there are some unused books lying around to be rewritten with some Baali history long out of date Laughing.

What about those anonymous emails from a "friend"??? Just a thought.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:51 pm

Hm, I believe this "friend" is Jack, and how would he know about the pc's clan? Except of course for the more "obvious" ones like Nosferatu or Samedi...

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:54 pm

I always thought the Friend was Caine himself Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:05 pm

From what I've read elsewhere, and seen of the game, I'm pretty damn sure that a) the cabbie is indeed Caine, and b) "friend" from the emails is also Caine. But then, I'm a damn blood-cookie munching, Tremere enslaved, tail chasing doggie from butt-fuck Idaho, so wtf???

(Edit: Oh, and remember that there are Disciplines and other powers than can divulge one's clan...)


Last edited by Voraxith on Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Post-thought...)
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:13 pm

Some of the weaknesses are social, and not supernatural in nature... As well as their features. Sure, a thaumaturgical test can trace back the lineage, but then again, having the blood of a clan in you veins doesn't make you part of that clan...
Then again, this was one of the limits we stumble upon in Masquerade, proving again the superiority of Requiem as a system.

Now that I have launched the subject of trolls, I shall run away and laugh.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:26 pm

Grrr... Requiem gives Animalism to Ventrue. Seriously, WTF?!?!
But they do make Earth Meld level 2, so you get it earlier. It's got its pros and cons.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:29 pm

This friend could be one of two people but it is not clear who. It could be jack, or the cabbie. There is also some debate of who the cabbie is. He could be Caine or an antidiviluian. It is never mentioned. So we just don't know. Also chess references are not Jack's style. I also have no idea why Jack would tell the PC that they're part of a demonic clan with the goal of corrupting all society.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:33 pm

Hey! The Baali aren't trying to corrupt society--they're trying to protect society. Because with all their dark, infernal ritualistic shenanigans, the Baali were keeping Those Who Wait Beyond from awakening--though most of them believe they were actually trying to summon these foul devil-gods. It's inferred in quite a few points of WoD canon that the mass genocide of the Baali was what allowed the rising of the Earth Bound fiends that comprise the game Demon: the Fallen.

And as far as the identity of the cabbie goes, I quote directly from the White Wolf Wiki:
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire:_The_Masquerade_-_Bloodlines wrote:
The game hints towards the end that Jack's friend who drives the taxi is Caine, the father of all vampires. This is made more credible by the fact the characters speech files are kept in a directory titled "Caine" and that a Malkavian character will recognize the taxi driver as the father of all vampires in the prelude to the final battle, leading to a fair amount of hilarity. Driving a taxi is also consistent with being cursed to wander. Additionally, if the player activates the Auspex discipline, he will discover that the driver's aura is purple, indicating that he is a vampire (or, at the very least, not human). Also, Rosa, the clairvoyant thin-blood, cryptically says "Why is he smiling? Is it- is it the father behind him?", referring to one of the games endings where the taxi driver is standing behind Smiling Jack. It must be noted though that some Vampire: The Masquerade supplements mention a Malkavian claiming to be Caine (and may even believe it) who travels around with Jack.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:31 am

Voraxith wrote:

And as far as the identity of the cabbie goes, I quote directly from the White Wolf Wiki:
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire:_The_Masquerade_-_Bloodlines wrote:
The game hints towards the end that Jack's friend who drives the taxi is Caine, the father of all vampires. This is made more credible by the fact the characters speech files are kept in a directory titled "Caine" and that a Malkavian character will recognize the taxi driver as the father of all vampires in the prelude to the final battle, leading to a fair amount of hilarity. Driving a taxi is also consistent with being cursed to wander. Additionally, if the player activates the Auspex discipline, he will discover that the driver's aura is purple, indicating that he is a vampire (or, at the very least, not human). Also, Rosa, the clairvoyant thin-blood, cryptically says "Why is he smiling? Is it- is it the father behind him?", referring to one of the games endings where the taxi driver is standing behind Smiling Jack. It must be noted though that some Vampire: The Masquerade supplements mention a Malkavian claiming to be Caine (and may even believe it) who travels around with Jack.

I can't say I am against the possibility, but others keep to the often mentioned fact that Caine NEVER does anything that involves his progeny. Of course, if that fact is stated with the oWoD lore itself, when who said it wasn't Caine himself that started it? If not, well, who cares if he chose to drive someone around in a cab at some point? Or that he hasn't 'helped' others in some way through out history? Like he is 'really' content to live a life of 'absolute' solitude? Maybe he does spend copious amount of time by himself where he can't interfere with humans, or his progeny, but in the same vein, there probably are cases where he does end up somewhere that he does choose to help - even if no Kindred or Kine have any idea who he really is.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:50 am

All of which makes perfect sense. Years ago (like back in '98 or so) a bunch of friends and I who were playing a large MET game came up with the theory that Caine had to be either a biker or a cabbie--so apparently we weren't too far off the mark. Very Happy Personally, I really like the idea that the cabbie is Caine.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:49 pm

Random thought hit me... *auch!* What if the Jester called Blood Hunt on Smiling Jack and by extension on Cabbie for helping Jack? What do you think woul happen? What if LaCroix by some miraculously unfortunate occurance managed to Diablerize Cabbie?

As for the mysterious Friend... Chess references would point to Lasombra. Antitribu? Sabbat official behind Andriei playing a game with dear Sebastian?
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:00 pm

There was one very discrete semi official lulz circulating out there in "teh books" saying that during the Gehenna times, some Malkie cabbie believed himself to be Caine, and spread random insight and fear all around him for the lulz of us, STs.


Tying chess to Lasombra is like tying lawyers to Ventrue. Many Tremere and Ventrue play chess, on a "clan, kindred" basis to work their strategy.


This one "end of the world" thing that I loved actually involved Wraith the Oblivion... With Abel as a fucking ghost Very Happy

The friend is certainly the cabbie, but then, my guess is that the cabbie is not Caine (since his existence is not Canon, Bloodlines never stated that it was true.. After all it was all a fucking plot Very Happy)
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:52 pm

Friend = Cabbie

Cabbie = Caine

Abel = Wraith???!!!??? What?! Where the frak is that?
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:12 pm

Wraith are ghosts, specters and the restless Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:31 pm

Silly, I know what Wraith the Oblivion is. I mean, where in the canon did it say Abel was one?
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:35 pm

Time of Judgment, Gehenna, dude Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:40 pm

Claudia wrote:
Time of Judgment, Gehenna, dude Smile

*Quickly digging through his book collection...*
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:42 pm

But back to the original topic of this thread, I think it would be very plausible for the Baali character (female option in future editions I hope...) to pose as a Tremere and reap said rewards/risks.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:20 pm

Voraxith wrote:
But back to the original topic of this thread, I think it would be very plausible for the Baali character (female option in future editions I hope...) to pose as a Tremere and reap said rewards/risks.
agreed.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:34 pm

I have a problem with that.
If the sire was posing as tremere, ok. But then the PC should believe hard core he is tremere, hence, develop thaumaturgy and not daimonion... His sire could never tell anything before having the haircut :-(
The PC in bloodlines should be considered caitiff, since he never got "clan training".

There is no knowledge in blood, but a few "innate facilities" to learn clan disciplines..

This is a non ending debate. In the end, the modder has to make a choice, a dogma. "the PC knows he's not a tremere but he plays along"...
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:52 pm

...or we need an altogether different starting point. Another reason, why the pc is in LaCroix' debt. Something like not following one of the other traditions, e.g. hunting in LA, before he had introduced himself...
Then the sire could have given all the knowledge the new character needs, and perhaps even have him accepted in the cam someplace else. And then the newly embraced kindred fucks up on the first journey on his own.

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:33 pm

Maybe the sire got a chance to explains things a bit before the actual Embrace. We're never shown what happened before the character was turned... There is the fact that the Baali are very strict about who and why they Embrace, not to mention their typical "style" of Embracing. Oooh, oooh, oooh, Zer0! Can we have a fleshpit in the game? C'mon, pwetty pwease?!?! Twisted Evil

And as for Malkav's idea, that could work. Is he voluteering to do it, cause I'm sure Zer0 would appreciate the help. *Is learning to appreciate the hard work and level of complexity involved in modding Bloodlines. I ain't frakking touching the cutscenes!*
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:03 pm

Voraxith wrote:
Maybe the sire got a chance to explains things a bit before the actual Embrace. We're never shown what happened before the character was turned...

Though having some other opening to the game would be nice, maybe an easier option would be to go with an email?

"Though I cannot say I truly understand how you feel, but if nothing else, know that there is purpose behind that feeling.
By now, you know that I have faced final death for what they call my 'crime'. But I am no fool. My death means very little, but your survival means much more to me than anything. If I am correct, they will act just as I expected - which means you are still able to read this. As such, you must know of what you really are. Not what they've told you, but what they haven't, or haven't cared to.
"

Obviously it could vary in exactly what the e-mail contains, since each Sire would likely have something slightly different, if not vastly different to say. In the case of the Baali, it would likely contain something to the effect of:

"The presence of the Tremere in this city, whether or not you encounter them, could cause a problem. If you must, pose as them. Do whatever is needed to have them accept you, help you.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:13 pm

Yes, yes !

But is the Sire aware of his exceptional Childe ?
I mean, was it all calculated ? Sometimes, most of the time, most Embraces are on whims, mistakes, passion of the moment, or worse, for the lulz. Especially during SEX <_<
The Sire was not "that" important, he was just some random young guy/gal. Maybe he wasn't even aware of anything was just influenced against his/her will (some higher dominate, Jack blackmailing/threatening...). I mean, that embrace was certainly not "planned and prepared", and the Sire and Childe both never knew one would embrace the other before that night..

I don't think the PC was "chosen". He just happens to be talented (in the idea of that you finish the game with each pc you create).
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:09 pm

Voraxith, my idea about another starting point was just that, an idea. I have not (yet) thought about the technical details involved, except of course that I do know, it's a huge amount of work...

Maxus, the email sounds a bit like the "Deus ex Machina" to me. A typical shortcut to include new stuff or info, without having to do all the actual scripting, dialog creating etc.
And additionally, I agree with Claudia. The embrace was never planned. If the sire had intended to embrace someone without asking for permission, he (or she) would probably have done it in a way that didn't involve being caught in the act.
So the sire could neither have prepared an email, nor told the childe things before the actual embrace. I'd say the fact that the childe is completely unaware as to what happens, is shown in the intro cutscene.
On the other hand, the prince states that the sire was a well known Camarilla member, so he should know the pc's clan (or in case of Baali or Salubri what clan the sire pretended to be).

Claudia, I do agree on the fact that the player was not "chosen" in some way. But Andrei says something about "exceptional blood." Whatever that means.

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Today at 8:49 pm

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