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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:54 pm

I always thought the Friend was Caine himself Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:13 pm

Some of the weaknesses are social, and not supernatural in nature... As well as their features. Sure, a thaumaturgical test can trace back the lineage, but then again, having the blood of a clan in you veins doesn't make you part of that clan...
Then again, this was one of the limits we stumble upon in Masquerade, proving again the superiority of Requiem as a system.

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:29 pm

This friend could be one of two people but it is not clear who. It could be jack, or the cabbie. There is also some debate of who the cabbie is. He could be Caine or an antidiviluian. It is never mentioned. So we just don't know. Also chess references are not Jack's style. I also have no idea why Jack would tell the PC that they're part of a demonic clan with the goal of corrupting all society.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:31 am

Voraxith wrote:

And as far as the identity of the cabbie goes, I quote directly from the White Wolf Wiki:
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire:_The_Masquerade_-_Bloodlines wrote:
The game hints towards the end that Jack's friend who drives the taxi is Caine, the father of all vampires. This is made more credible by the fact the characters speech files are kept in a directory titled "Caine" and that a Malkavian character will recognize the taxi driver as the father of all vampires in the prelude to the final battle, leading to a fair amount of hilarity. Driving a taxi is also consistent with being cursed to wander. Additionally, if the player activates the Auspex discipline, he will discover that the driver's aura is purple, indicating that he is a vampire (or, at the very least, not human). Also, Rosa, the clairvoyant thin-blood, cryptically says "Why is he smiling? Is it- is it the father behind him?", referring to one of the games endings where the taxi driver is standing behind Smiling Jack. It must be noted though that some Vampire: The Masquerade supplements mention a Malkavian claiming to be Caine (and may even believe it) who travels around with Jack.

I can't say I am against the possibility, but others keep to the often mentioned fact that Caine NEVER does anything that involves his progeny. Of course, if that fact is stated with the oWoD lore itself, when who said it wasn't Caine himself that started it? If not, well, who cares if he chose to drive someone around in a cab at some point? Or that he hasn't 'helped' others in some way through out history? Like he is 'really' content to live a life of 'absolute' solitude? Maybe he does spend copious amount of time by himself where he can't interfere with humans, or his progeny, but in the same vein, there probably are cases where he does end up somewhere that he does choose to help - even if no Kindred or Kine have any idea who he really is.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:49 pm

Random thought hit me... *auch!* What if the Jester called Blood Hunt on Smiling Jack and by extension on Cabbie for helping Jack? What do you think woul happen? What if LaCroix by some miraculously unfortunate occurance managed to Diablerize Cabbie?

As for the mysterious Friend... Chess references would point to Lasombra. Antitribu? Sabbat official behind Andriei playing a game with dear Sebastian?
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:00 pm

There was one very discrete semi official lulz circulating out there in "teh books" saying that during the Gehenna times, some Malkie cabbie believed himself to be Caine, and spread random insight and fear all around him for the lulz of us, STs.


Tying chess to Lasombra is like tying lawyers to Ventrue. Many Tremere and Ventrue play chess, on a "clan, kindred" basis to work their strategy.


This one "end of the world" thing that I loved actually involved Wraith the Oblivion... With Abel as a fucking ghost Very Happy

The friend is certainly the cabbie, but then, my guess is that the cabbie is not Caine (since his existence is not Canon, Bloodlines never stated that it was true.. After all it was all a fucking plot Very Happy)
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:12 pm

Wraith are ghosts, specters and the restless Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:35 pm

Time of Judgment, Gehenna, dude Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:20 pm

Voraxith wrote:
But back to the original topic of this thread, I think it would be very plausible for the Baali character (female option in future editions I hope...) to pose as a Tremere and reap said rewards/risks.
agreed.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:34 pm

I have a problem with that.
If the sire was posing as tremere, ok. But then the PC should believe hard core he is tremere, hence, develop thaumaturgy and not daimonion... His sire could never tell anything before having the haircut :-(
The PC in bloodlines should be considered caitiff, since he never got "clan training".

There is no knowledge in blood, but a few "innate facilities" to learn clan disciplines..

This is a non ending debate. In the end, the modder has to make a choice, a dogma. "the PC knows he's not a tremere but he plays along"...
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:52 pm

...or we need an altogether different starting point. Another reason, why the pc is in LaCroix' debt. Something like not following one of the other traditions, e.g. hunting in LA, before he had introduced himself...
Then the sire could have given all the knowledge the new character needs, and perhaps even have him accepted in the cam someplace else. And then the newly embraced kindred fucks up on the first journey on his own.

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:03 pm

Voraxith wrote:
Maybe the sire got a chance to explains things a bit before the actual Embrace. We're never shown what happened before the character was turned...

Though having some other opening to the game would be nice, maybe an easier option would be to go with an email?

"Though I cannot say I truly understand how you feel, but if nothing else, know that there is purpose behind that feeling.
By now, you know that I have faced final death for what they call my 'crime'. But I am no fool. My death means very little, but your survival means much more to me than anything. If I am correct, they will act just as I expected - which means you are still able to read this. As such, you must know of what you really are. Not what they've told you, but what they haven't, or haven't cared to.
"

Obviously it could vary in exactly what the e-mail contains, since each Sire would likely have something slightly different, if not vastly different to say. In the case of the Baali, it would likely contain something to the effect of:

"The presence of the Tremere in this city, whether or not you encounter them, could cause a problem. If you must, pose as them. Do whatever is needed to have them accept you, help you.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:13 pm

Yes, yes !

But is the Sire aware of his exceptional Childe ?
I mean, was it all calculated ? Sometimes, most of the time, most Embraces are on whims, mistakes, passion of the moment, or worse, for the lulz. Especially during SEX <_<
The Sire was not "that" important, he was just some random young guy/gal. Maybe he wasn't even aware of anything was just influenced against his/her will (some higher dominate, Jack blackmailing/threatening...). I mean, that embrace was certainly not "planned and prepared", and the Sire and Childe both never knew one would embrace the other before that night..

I don't think the PC was "chosen". He just happens to be talented (in the idea of that you finish the game with each pc you create).
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:09 pm

Voraxith, my idea about another starting point was just that, an idea. I have not (yet) thought about the technical details involved, except of course that I do know, it's a huge amount of work...

Maxus, the email sounds a bit like the "Deus ex Machina" to me. A typical shortcut to include new stuff or info, without having to do all the actual scripting, dialog creating etc.
And additionally, I agree with Claudia. The embrace was never planned. If the sire had intended to embrace someone without asking for permission, he (or she) would probably have done it in a way that didn't involve being caught in the act.
So the sire could neither have prepared an email, nor told the childe things before the actual embrace. I'd say the fact that the childe is completely unaware as to what happens, is shown in the intro cutscene.
On the other hand, the prince states that the sire was a well known Camarilla member, so he should know the pc's clan (or in case of Baali or Salubri what clan the sire pretended to be).

Claudia, I do agree on the fact that the player was not "chosen" in some way. But Andrei says something about "exceptional blood." Whatever that means.

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:01 pm

Baali/Salubri problem could be solved. Assume that everyone, including Warlock and the Jester Laughing thinks they are Tremere. Maybe the Friend could help with a cryptic email? Or some blackmailer? That would have the benefit of allowing possibility for new cuests... Twisted Evil Or PCs of respectible Clans found a diary of their Sire. Well hidden and not too easy to find yet in a location related to the plot, so PC would eventually find them.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:38 pm

Mokie wrote:
The PC has no idea that they're Baali so there would have to be something in the game explaining Clan Baali but without associating the PC with the Baali as that would result in the PC's execution. Possibly a random note appears in the player's mailbox/email explaining the situation, or even better a book.

Feral wrote:
Baali/Salubri problem could be solved. Assume that everyone, including Warlock and the Jester Laughing thinks they are Tremere. Maybe the Friend could help with a cryptic email? Or some blackmailer? That would have the benefit of allowing possibility for new cuests... Twisted Evil Or PCs of respectible Clans found a diary of their Sire. Well hidden and not too easy to find yet in a location related to the plot, so PC would eventually find them.

I can persuade Twisted Evil

Could a series of books be placed in the main quests giving the player more and more information about their actual clan? The books could placed there by other Baali members. I'm sure that some of the other members would've noticed that "the sire" was executed for siring than wouldn't the PC be part of the sire's clan and therefore a Baali. A possible motive for their actions is that the Baali don't want a loose Baali running around because said Baali may be recognized as a Baali implying that the Baali clan is still alive and "the sire" was part of it. So in order to educate this "loose Baali" and hopefully to make the PC more discreet members of the Baali clan placed books in areas for the PC to find. It's fairly sound logic.

Baali perspective "Most people think our clan is 'dead' so we can't have any new members popping up or people would notice the clan is alive and will make connections between the fledgling, the sire, his friends,their friends and finally the neighbor's dog. Therefore we must make sure the fledgling is discreet. Since Lacroix is watching the fledgling we cannot personally interfere but we can place drops around giving the fledgling an education study ."

the above also accounts for the random items 'hidden' around the city.Why else would a brush hook/baseball bat be alone in an alley way waiting for you. Wish that happened to me, my neighbor's dog would be less keen on chasing me around Smile .
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:01 pm

You reminded me of a lot of material I read and then forgotten... But yes. Baali would hide as some other Clan, most likely Tremere. Poor Max Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:06 pm

Voraxith wrote:
Baali are VERY VERY VERY careful about whom they Embrace and how they do it. There is ALWAYS an agenda... However, the idea that a lone Baali might have gone rogue and sired out of some baser urge is not wholely beyond the realm of possibility, either, so there is that.
Well thank you for enlightening me as I am not that familar with W.O.D.
possible situation... and or conspiracy Idea
Could someone higher up be using "the sire" as a scapegoat for something?
Before the "Camarilla war coteries" could finish identifying "the sire" 's public idenity and detain him someone "convinced" "the sire" to sire and therefore get killed, tying up loose ends.This someone could have also accounted for Nines' showdown with Lacroix and plans on using the fledgling to get more information about Lacroix and the Anarchs or cause a power struggle between the groups for some reason. The reason someone had fledgling chosen is that the fledgling is perfectly green and everyone trusts his/her's word because fledgling isn't involved in politics. If the fledgling had any prior knowledge about the masquerade he/she would be instantly suspicious, which is why Baali cannot use a normal member. Now the Baali are giving the fledgling the true story in hopes that the fledgling will join. If the fledgling refuses and goes to Lacroix or Nines. They would blow her/him off because the fledgling has no information about other members of the Baali and just admitted that they are of Baali and would be promptly executed. Using the fledgling as a double agent wouldn't work because the Baali are already wise to the possiblities and didn't have the fledgling meet with any covens.
Win-Win and Baali goes back to work Twisted Evil

or its just a rouge Baali Evil or Very Mad

now how do you incorporate that into the game? Any Ideas?
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:13 pm

Voraxith wrote:
Though it is more than like the choice that others will take, I personally am not a fan of the rogue Baali possibility. I would think that's even weaker and too ham-handed than the "Deus Ex Machina" email idea. But, that's just me. What do I know? Twisted Evil

The rouge idea is just what they want us to think. Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:51 pm

As a basic statement, due to the embrace circumstances, I still say that the PC -should- be Caitiff.
He could learn about his Sire's clan by some random source (probably Jack if he knew said sire), but it doesn't explain that the character knows his disciplines, his Clan weakness...

Especially on non-"basic innate disciplines" (Fortitude, Potence, Celerity.. and maybe Auspex, Presence and Dominate on a second sight).

Then Bloodlines developers chose to make basic dogma statements as facts (the pc knows his clan, the pc doesn't need to be teached his disciplines by any tutor...). They also went for a "blood potency" approach, rather than a Generation / Age approach.
It's just fine. But it leaves a bunch of unanswered questions. WTF about the sire ? Was he manipulated into doing such embrace ?


I could write a whole essay on this "problem", and we all have different views, since this is all border line shit. And we would be all right Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:04 pm

Claudia wrote:
I could write a whole essay on this "problem", and we all have different views, since this is all border line shit. And we would be all right Smile

True it also wouldn't fix said problem.
In my hypothetical theory someone manipulated or dominated "the sire" into making the embrace as it clearly is not the usual method of "Baali embracing" and a rouge Baali is very very unlikely. So the PC has to be treated as a special case because the situation required a special case.
Mokie wrote:
The reason someone had fledgling chosen is that the fledgling is perfectly green and everyone trusts his/her's word because fledgling isn't involved in politics. If the fledgling had any prior knowledge about the masquerade he/she would be instantly suspicious, which is why Baali cannot use a normal member.
This is the same reason why Lacroix used fledgling to frame Nines.
It would be very difficult to script in all of the other "stuff" (fleshpit/new opening cut-scene) to make the PC a true Baali. This situation keeps the player out of the loop but the PC knows they are Baali which was what I was going for, because of the book drops. While attempting to keep in line with what Voraxith said about the clan.
With effort the pc could learn Daimoninon from books instead of raising them through xp. So no innate abilities that are other than what is to be expected. I dislike this idea though, books can be used for other things like quest items.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:08 pm

I think, there is one strong argument against any explaining email: The pc's email account is via the LaCroix Foundation intranet.
For the idea of dropping books: I'm not sure if that would make sense, concerning the lore. But on a pure technical issue, they would have to be just notes to be found and read in place. There just are not enough free item slots. Zer0 has removed the poster quest from TFN, so two or three items are still unused, but I don't think they should be "wasted" on such a specialized isue.

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:11 pm

Mokie wrote:
...Baali perspective "Most people think our clan is 'dead' so we can't have any new members popping up or people would notice the clan is alive and will make connections between the fledgling, the sire, his friends,their friends and finally the neighbor's dog...
Don't forget the squirrel in the front yard...

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:19 am

Voraxith wrote:


SQUIRREL?!?!

*gives chase*

The Daimoinon problem is the most serions one... Obfuscate? Presence? Even a Caitiff could learn them.
But Daimoinon is technically Thaumaturgy learnt from Demons. So it requires a tutor. Unless it was one of the Fallen who taught the PC the rudiments... Unwholsome possibility. Or Cabbie? Cain knows all Disciplines, right? And guessing Cainite's lineage is almost subcoucious effort for him.

Btw, the same problem exists with PC Tremere. Thaumaturgy in untutored, unapprenticed fledgling!? Wunderkid, or what?
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:27 am

Claudia wrote:
As a basic statement, due to the embrace circumstances, I still say that the PC -should- be Caitiff.
He could learn about his Sire's clan by some random source (probably Jack if he knew said sire), but it doesn't explain that the character knows his disciplines, his Clan weakness...

Especially on non-"basic innate disciplines" (Fortitude, Potence, Celerity.. and maybe Auspex, Presence and Dominate on a second sight).

Then Bloodlines developers chose to make basic dogma statements as facts (the pc knows his clan, the pc doesn't need to be teached his disciplines by any tutor...). They also went for a "blood potency" approach, rather than a Generation / Age approach.
It's just fine. But it leaves a bunch of unanswered questions. WTF about the sire ? Was he manipulated into doing such embrace ?


I could write a whole essay on this "problem", and we all have different views, since this is all border line shit. And we would be all right Smile




Hence me talking about basic core physical or sensorial disciplines... I forget obfuscate, it should go with auspex and presence and dominate. They are not core basic, but...
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