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 Baali Haven!

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Feral
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:01 pm

Baali/Salubri problem could be solved. Assume that everyone, including Warlock and the Jester Laughing thinks they are Tremere. Maybe the Friend could help with a cryptic email? Or some blackmailer? That would have the benefit of allowing possibility for new cuests... Twisted Evil Or PCs of respectible Clans found a diary of their Sire. Well hidden and not too easy to find yet in a location related to the plot, so PC would eventually find them.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:38 pm

Mokie wrote:
The PC has no idea that they're Baali so there would have to be something in the game explaining Clan Baali but without associating the PC with the Baali as that would result in the PC's execution. Possibly a random note appears in the player's mailbox/email explaining the situation, or even better a book.

Feral wrote:
Baali/Salubri problem could be solved. Assume that everyone, including Warlock and the Jester Laughing thinks they are Tremere. Maybe the Friend could help with a cryptic email? Or some blackmailer? That would have the benefit of allowing possibility for new cuests... Twisted Evil Or PCs of respectible Clans found a diary of their Sire. Well hidden and not too easy to find yet in a location related to the plot, so PC would eventually find them.

I can persuade Twisted Evil

Could a series of books be placed in the main quests giving the player more and more information about their actual clan? The books could placed there by other Baali members. I'm sure that some of the other members would've noticed that "the sire" was executed for siring than wouldn't the PC be part of the sire's clan and therefore a Baali. A possible motive for their actions is that the Baali don't want a loose Baali running around because said Baali may be recognized as a Baali implying that the Baali clan is still alive and "the sire" was part of it. So in order to educate this "loose Baali" and hopefully to make the PC more discreet members of the Baali clan placed books in areas for the PC to find. It's fairly sound logic.

Baali perspective "Most people think our clan is 'dead' so we can't have any new members popping up or people would notice the clan is alive and will make connections between the fledgling, the sire, his friends,their friends and finally the neighbor's dog. Therefore we must make sure the fledgling is discreet. Since Lacroix is watching the fledgling we cannot personally interfere but we can place drops around giving the fledgling an education study ."

the above also accounts for the random items 'hidden' around the city.Why else would a brush hook/baseball bat be alone in an alley way waiting for you. Wish that happened to me, my neighbor's dog would be less keen on chasing me around Smile .
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:23 pm

Re: All of the Above--

Some most excellent ideas, but I can tell by reading some of the comments that not all of you are very aware of how the Baali bloodline (or are they a Clan? The books seem to waver on that little technicality...) operates in the modern nights. If you'll allow me, I shall quote.

From the "Storyteller's Handbook, Revised":
 


And then there's this--

From the "Storyteller's Handbook, 2nd ed.":
 

And finally, there is this little nugget.

From "http://vampirerpg.free.fr/Bloodlines/Baali.html" -- a very very very interesting fan site:
 

I do apologize if this seemed to ramble on. I tried to limit myself to what I felt was pertinent to the discussion, but it may have been too much. There is a crapload of canonical lore and information on the Baali, and most of it implies or directy states that the Baali are VERY VERY VERY careful about whom they Embrace and how they do it. There is ALWAYS an agenda... However, the idea that a lone Baali might have gone rogue and sired out of some baser urge is not wholely beyond the realm of possibility, either, so there is that.

(Edit: Oh, and if I get a TL;DR, I'mma frenzy and diablerize some fools... Razz )
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:01 pm

You reminded me of a lot of material I read and then forgotten... But yes. Baali would hide as some other Clan, most likely Tremere. Poor Max Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:06 pm

Voraxith wrote:
Baali are VERY VERY VERY careful about whom they Embrace and how they do it. There is ALWAYS an agenda... However, the idea that a lone Baali might have gone rogue and sired out of some baser urge is not wholely beyond the realm of possibility, either, so there is that.
Well thank you for enlightening me as I am not that familar with W.O.D.
possible situation... and or conspiracy Idea
Could someone higher up be using "the sire" as a scapegoat for something?
Before the "Camarilla war coteries" could finish identifying "the sire" 's public idenity and detain him someone "convinced" "the sire" to sire and therefore get killed, tying up loose ends.This someone could have also accounted for Nines' showdown with Lacroix and plans on using the fledgling to get more information about Lacroix and the Anarchs or cause a power struggle between the groups for some reason. The reason someone had fledgling chosen is that the fledgling is perfectly green and everyone trusts his/her's word because fledgling isn't involved in politics. If the fledgling had any prior knowledge about the masquerade he/she would be instantly suspicious, which is why Baali cannot use a normal member. Now the Baali are giving the fledgling the true story in hopes that the fledgling will join. If the fledgling refuses and goes to Lacroix or Nines. They would blow her/him off because the fledgling has no information about other members of the Baali and just admitted that they are of Baali and would be promptly executed. Using the fledgling as a double agent wouldn't work because the Baali are already wise to the possiblities and didn't have the fledgling meet with any covens.
Win-Win and Baali goes back to work Twisted Evil

or its just a rouge Baali Evil or Very Mad

now how do you incorporate that into the game? Any Ideas?
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:11 pm

Though it is more than likely the choice that others will take, I personally am not a fan of the rogue Baali possibility. I would think that's even weaker and too ham-handed than the "Deus Ex Machina" email idea. But, that's just me. What do I know? Twisted Evil


Last edited by Voraxith on Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:13 pm

Voraxith wrote:
Though it is more than like the choice that others will take, I personally am not a fan of the rogue Baali possibility. I would think that's even weaker and too ham-handed than the "Deus Ex Machina" email idea. But, that's just me. What do I know? Twisted Evil

The rouge idea is just what they want us to think. Twisted Evil
look up or down.

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:51 pm

As a basic statement, due to the embrace circumstances, I still say that the PC -should- be Caitiff.
He could learn about his Sire's clan by some random source (probably Jack if he knew said sire), but it doesn't explain that the character knows his disciplines, his Clan weakness...

Especially on non-"basic innate disciplines" (Fortitude, Potence, Celerity.. and maybe Auspex, Presence and Dominate on a second sight).

Then Bloodlines developers chose to make basic dogma statements as facts (the pc knows his clan, the pc doesn't need to be teached his disciplines by any tutor...). They also went for a "blood potency" approach, rather than a Generation / Age approach.
It's just fine. But it leaves a bunch of unanswered questions. WTF about the sire ? Was he manipulated into doing such embrace ?


I could write a whole essay on this "problem", and we all have different views, since this is all border line shit. And we would be all right Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:04 pm

Claudia wrote:
I could write a whole essay on this "problem", and we all have different views, since this is all border line shit. And we would be all right Smile

True it also wouldn't fix said problem.
In my hypothetical theory someone manipulated or dominated "the sire" into making the embrace as it clearly is not the usual method of "Baali embracing" and a rouge Baali is very very unlikely. So the PC has to be treated as a special case because the situation required a special case.
Mokie wrote:
The reason someone had fledgling chosen is that the fledgling is perfectly green and everyone trusts his/her's word because fledgling isn't involved in politics. If the fledgling had any prior knowledge about the masquerade he/she would be instantly suspicious, which is why Baali cannot use a normal member.
This is the same reason why Lacroix used fledgling to frame Nines.
It would be very difficult to script in all of the other "stuff" (fleshpit/new opening cut-scene) to make the PC a true Baali. This situation keeps the player out of the loop but the PC knows they are Baali which was what I was going for, because of the book drops. While attempting to keep in line with what Voraxith said about the clan.
With effort the pc could learn Daimoninon from books instead of raising them through xp. So no innate abilities that are other than what is to be expected. I dislike this idea though, books can be used for other things like quest items.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:08 pm

I think, there is one strong argument against any explaining email: The pc's email account is via the LaCroix Foundation intranet.
For the idea of dropping books: I'm not sure if that would make sense, concerning the lore. But on a pure technical issue, they would have to be just notes to be found and read in place. There just are not enough free item slots. Zer0 has removed the poster quest from TFN, so two or three items are still unused, but I don't think they should be "wasted" on such a specialized isue.

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:11 pm

Mokie wrote:
...Baali perspective "Most people think our clan is 'dead' so we can't have any new members popping up or people would notice the clan is alive and will make connections between the fledgling, the sire, his friends,their friends and finally the neighbor's dog...
Don't forget the squirrel in the front yard...

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:19 pm

I agree with Malkav on the books (as awesome as it would be to have the Baali lore in the game like that), and I can't believe I didn't think of that with the email--maybe it's encrypted? In thinking more about it, the inclusion of Baali in TFN certainly raises quite an interesting pickle as far as the plot goes. I'm still not a fan of the rogue Baali sire, but there has to be another way to explain things, and to get the Tremere chantry haven for him. Smile Because that is the point of this thread to begin with. I just operate under the assumption that the sire had a chance to explain the most important details before the Embrace. Certainly there were things left out that she didn't get to elaborate on what with the whole "let's-kick-the-door-in-and-throw-one-hell-of-a-stake-at-them" manuever (seriously! What is that guy's Strenth + Athletics ability that he can just whip a stake out and penetrate her breatsbone like that? DAMN!!!), but still it's a little preposterous to have a fledgling baali running around with Daimoinon (and some elder-level powers later on, too) and not knowing what he is, or others figuring it out, too.

Oh, and...

Childe of Malkav wrote:
Don't forget the squirrel in the front yard...

*Suddenly looks off into the trees.*

SQUIRREL?!?!
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:19 am

Voraxith wrote:


SQUIRREL?!?!

*gives chase*

The Daimoinon problem is the most serions one... Obfuscate? Presence? Even a Caitiff could learn them.
But Daimoinon is technically Thaumaturgy learnt from Demons. So it requires a tutor. Unless it was one of the Fallen who taught the PC the rudiments... Unwholsome possibility. Or Cabbie? Cain knows all Disciplines, right? And guessing Cainite's lineage is almost subcoucious effort for him.

Btw, the same problem exists with PC Tremere. Thaumaturgy in untutored, unapprenticed fledgling!? Wunderkid, or what?
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:27 am

Claudia wrote:
As a basic statement, due to the embrace circumstances, I still say that the PC -should- be Caitiff.
He could learn about his Sire's clan by some random source (probably Jack if he knew said sire), but it doesn't explain that the character knows his disciplines, his Clan weakness...

Especially on non-"basic innate disciplines" (Fortitude, Potence, Celerity.. and maybe Auspex, Presence and Dominate on a second sight).

Then Bloodlines developers chose to make basic dogma statements as facts (the pc knows his clan, the pc doesn't need to be teached his disciplines by any tutor...). They also went for a "blood potency" approach, rather than a Generation / Age approach.
It's just fine. But it leaves a bunch of unanswered questions. WTF about the sire ? Was he manipulated into doing such embrace ?


I could write a whole essay on this "problem", and we all have different views, since this is all border line shit. And we would be all right Smile




Hence me talking about basic core physical or sensorial disciplines... I forget obfuscate, it should go with auspex and presence and dominate. They are not core basic, but...
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:44 am

The thing is that in the core VtM book, a Kindred can learn their Clan Disciplines through sheer blood sense -- no tutor required, it's just a little harder (costs more XP and takes more time).
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:23 am

Voraxith wrote:
The thing is that in the core VtM book, a Kindred can learn their Clan Disciplines through sheer blood sense -- no tutor required, it's just a little harder (costs more XP and takes more time).

For all non sorcerous Disciplines it is true. But Blood Companion explicitely states that Thaumaturgy, Koldunic Sorcery, Akhu (and all derivatives of Setite Sorcery) and Daimoinon as magical Dicciplines based on memorising rote/appropriate procedures of bespeaking spirits/Hermetic trappings require tutor. In case of Dark Thaumaturgy tutor may be otherwordly. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:25 am

Feral wrote:
For all non sorcerous Disciplines it is true. But Blood Companion explicitely states that Thaumaturgy, Koldunic Sorcery, Akhu (and all derivatives of Setite Sorcery) and Daimoinon as magical Dicciplines based on memorising rote/appropriate procedures of bespeaking spirits/Hermetic trappings require tutor. In case of Dark Thaumaturgy tutor may be otherwordly. Wink

Ah, this I did not know. I'll have to read that book...
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:54 pm

Voraxith wrote:
Feral wrote:
For all non sorcerous Disciplines it is true. But Blood Companion explicitely states that Thaumaturgy, Koldunic Sorcery, Akhu (and all derivatives of Setite Sorcery) and Daimoinon as magical Dicciplines based on memorising rote/appropriate procedures of bespeaking spirits/Hermetic trappings require tutor. In case of Dark Thaumaturgy tutor may be otherwordly. Wink

Ah, this I did not know. I'll have to read that book...

hmm... so someone would have to make a tutor for each of these 'magic' skills or at least one for each of the skills that are in game because this is the same problem with the other clans. It seems an incredible feat of python coding... It would be simpler if someone dropped notes around about these procedures for the PC to find.

Idea the notes can go into more detail with some history but could the main purpose of them be to raise the Daimoninon skill?
(chant "Dies Irae" to summon a demon while a pentagram is around the target)
(or chant "lux ex tenebris" to use 'Conflagration ' )
It would be much easier to script and isn't as simple as using the email and Lacroix is watching the email.

In other news I was wondering exactly how hard is it to make a completely new npc with dialog and skins (or just the dialog)? Is it even possible?
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:11 pm

Mokie wrote:
In other news I was wondering exactly how hard is it to make a completely new npc with dialog and skins (or just the dialog)? Is it even possible?

Ask Zer0--he made Akeem from nothing for TFN.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:12 pm

Voraxith wrote:
Ask Zer0--he made Akeem from nothing for TFN.
Voices and everything?
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:15 pm

Mokie wrote:
Voraxith wrote:
Ask Zer0--he made Akeem from nothing for TFN.
Voices and everything?

Yup. He got a guy that lurks somewhere on this forum to do the voiceover -- Scarecrow I think his handle is, or something like that, I can't remember now.

Also, I guess Malkav put in a bunch of Society of Leopold hunters in the Skyline Apartments for a quest for Akeem. So it can be done, but it's probably the hardest part of the game to mod.

I'm planning on doing something with it when and if I ever get around to my planned Gangrel mod, but I'm not looking forward to it.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:24 pm

Voraxith wrote:
Mokie wrote:
Voraxith wrote:
Ask Zer0--he made Akeem from nothing for TFN.
Voices and everything?

Yup. He got a guy that lurks somewhere on this forum to do the voiceover -- Scarecrow I think his handle is, or something like that, I can't remember now.

Also, I guess Malkav put in a bunch of Society of Leopold hunters in the Skyline Apartments for a quest for Akeem. So it can be done, but it's probably the hardest part of the game to mod.

Ok so it is possible it just seems that getting rid of the "you know all your displines from your clan" view that Trokia had would be a long term goal but once one of the modders make a npc teacher for one clan it should be less difficult for the other clans. It's probably still very difficult though.... I wish my Python was good.

off topic: I just thought that making a cut-scene would be fairly easy if someone imported characters and objects into 3ds max and moved them manually there. Not sure if the game would support it when it ran.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:41 pm

Mokie wrote:
off topic: I just thought that making a cut-scene would be fairly easy if someone imported characters and objects into 3ds max and moved them manually there. Not sure if the game would support it when it ran.

Yeah, but from what I understand, that's even harder than making new NPCs, so...
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:46 pm

Voraxith wrote:
Mokie wrote:
off topic: I just thought that making a cut-scene would be fairly easy if someone imported characters and objects into 3ds max and moved them manually there. Not sure if the game would support it when it ran.

Yeah, but from what I understand, that's even harder than making new NPCs, so...
I can use 3ds max to that effect though I'm not sure how to import characters from VTMB and if we can make more cutscenes we can add an additional ending for each clan Very Happy and other cut-scenes. Making an opening for each clan would be epic... and get rid of that lacroix scene
still we would have an issue with sound.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:03 pm

I think the only problem would be matching sound to lip movement if what you say is true. And as far as nixxing LaCroix goes....

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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