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 Baali Haven!

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Mokie
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:09 pm

Voraxith wrote:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lol!
Well not nixing it too much of the story revolves around it... adding more to it such as if the PC is Baali the fleshpit and the intro to the clan would be added Twisted Evil For the other clans the explanations of their disciplines and an individual scene as opposed to jumping straight from the opening scene to the trial scene which would reduce the need for npcs to teach the skills.

*never knew I grew a red sweat gland... must groom*
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:59 pm

It all depends on the level of professionality you want to achieve.
I could easily script the bare bones stuff for a discipline teacher. Just put a new vamp on a map, along with a few animations. Then write a dialog file, and perhaps a python function or two...
And then we want to flesh it all out, so we need a photoshopper for a new skin on the model, someone with a good voice and decent recording equipment for the voiceovers. And someone to do the lip files. And of course we need more than one teacher. So we need quite a lot of unused places.

It seems, we could make new maps with tha new SDK everybody is so exited about, over on PV. But that would really be a pain in the ass. For a real new map, you don't only have to build the walls, and put in some furniture. You have to manually add every single light source...

So basically, making a teacher for the disciplines is easy. Making it look good is the hard part of it.

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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:01 pm

... Maybe the PC can google her own clan. I'm sure he could stumble upon a wiki page...

Lyle Kersten has a facebook, and we did put up a Tremere Network online so Tremere characters could learn about their clan, their rituals and each other's activities... !
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:33 pm

Claudia wrote:
... Maybe the PC can google her own clan. I'm sure he could stumble upon a wiki page...
That's easiest for Malks. They have the apropriate site right in thei heads... Laughing

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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:34 pm

That's not googling, that's a motherfucking python script <_<

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:15 pm

Claudia wrote:
... Maybe the PC can google her own clan. I'm sure he could stumble upon a wiki page...


Wiki page with Society of Leopold helpline links: So, you think you are a vampire... Let me help you... Twisted Evil
Not to mention what Archons would make of authors of such wiki in WoD. Or not... What better method of convincing the masses that something is fiction than publishing it as such. Or making a computer game about it Laughing
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Mokie
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:18 pm

Feral wrote:
Claudia wrote:
... Maybe the PC can google her own clan. I'm sure he could stumble upon a wiki page...


Wiki page with Society of Leopold helpline links: So, you think you are a vampire... Let me help you... Twisted Evil

come visit and take our free supernatural test completely free "how much do you really know" Very Happy you will be stunned (if not killed) by the results Twisted Evil .


Last edited by Mokie on Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:21 pm

I'm, uh, I'm not even touching this one.

*Slowly backs away, then runs screaming from the blatant Masquerade violation*

LaCroix, I swear I had nuthin' to do with it! I don't WANT a haircut!
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:27 am

*dingles a blood cookie*

Quiet ! Freeze ! Good boy ?
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:48 am

Claudia wrote:
... Maybe the PC can google her own clan. I'm sure he could stumble upon a wiki page...

And of course the Camarilla would never think of checking visitors to certain sites there... Laughing

Feral wrote:
Wiki page with Society of Leopold helpline links: So, you think you are a vampire... Let me help you... Twisted Evil

Mokie wrote:
Come visit and take our free supernatural test completely free "how much do you really know" Very Happy you will be stunned (if not killed) by the results Twisted Evil .
See, we have this nice piece of wood here. It is a vampire detector. If we push it in your heart and you're paralyzed, you are a vampire, and we have a nice warm pyre for you. If you're merely dead, well, then you were human. But it's ok. The Lord will take your soul. This is the way the inquisition always worked. And in any case, we can be certain to work error free. The Lord would never allow suspicion to fall on innocents...

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:53 am

Feral wrote:
Not to mention what Archons would make of authors of such wiki in WoD. Or not... What better method of convincing the masses that something is fiction than publishing it as such. Or making a computer game about it Laughing
Ever asked Mercurio about Troika?

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:06 am

Childe of Malkav wrote:
Feral wrote:
Not to mention what Archons would make of authors of such wiki in WoD. Or not... What better method of convincing the masses that something is fiction than publishing it as such. Or making a computer game about it Laughing
Ever asked Mercurio about Troika?

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Yeah. lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:19 am

Alright, maybe this idea has a little more merit. Expanding the intro. Not more of a cut-scene, but having the player wake up, and have a little time before we get Avon calling, to sell a pair of stakes. In this time, the player has a little 'chat' with his/her sire.

Now, I can already tell the problems that this idea could create:

-The changes: I don't know if it will be possible to make such a change to the intro, even if it is known that new dialogues can be made. As for making it a scene involving dialogue, I can't be sure.

-The reasoning: It is obvious the one question that would hang in the air like a putrid odor, is one that many a newly embraced Vampire has found it pertinent to ask. However, that isn't the real problem. Did the Sire choose to embrace you for a good reason? Did he/she do it merely on a whim? Did they see you in a club, and do whatever to get to alone, intending to use you for it's meal? Or did they merely want your blood, and get a little sentimental when they went too far?

-Voices: The writing would likely take time, but even worse is the needed actors. Having each sire sound different is an option, as is doing what Troika did, having a single voice for the male and female Sires, used for each of the clans.

-Jack's Irrelevancy: If the Sire is to tell the player anything, namely that he/she is a Vampire, then some of the reason for the Jack's role in the tutorial is nearly erased. Maybe it might be possible to simply tell Jack "I get most of this, just let me do it on my own". To which point Jack would oblige, and only speak with you during parts that you might still need his help. Or of course, one could still skip the tutorial.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:10 pm

I don't think it's a good idea to make the whole dialogs for every clan. After having seen the princes monolog for about a million times, most people skip the intro anyway. So I think, it should just be a simple addition, to make it clear that sire and childe had a bit of time for a chat. Or that the staking happens one or a few nights later.
If this is possible, the only actual dialog change would be cutting the word "shortly" out of the Jester's speech...

For the tutorial, skipping parts of Jacks dialog shouldn't be a big issue. For the new CE version, I have made it possible to do the tutorial mostly as a normal level. Tell Jack, you don't need his tutoring, and then instead of saying goodbye, you can ask him, where you can get a bit of blood, and he will send you to the guy around the corner. Feeding from him hides Jack, and triggers the Sabbat assault...
Now that I think of it, I should probably make the same option, if you ask him to tell you only the bare boned stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:07 pm

Maybe we could do this Redemption style.
Do you remember the clock hanging in the room where the Embrace takes place? I see a short sequence of scenes:
- after Embrace everything goes as always up to the scene where you see the clock
- then you see the clock in daylight
-then the clock again, at night.

Maybe with scenes of sunup/sundown.
That would neatly imply that the Sire had at least one night to explain things, without the need to edit dialouge other than to cut out "shortly" from Jesters speech.
I have no idea if it is possible, but I think it would be the least bothersome and quite elegant way.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:56 pm

Feral, despite beign an animal you're quite a genius. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:59 pm

ThePhilosopher wrote:
Feral, despite beign an animal you're quite a genius. cheers
Well that would solve about every single problem that is caused with the Baali and the whole disipline issue.... It's Brilliant. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:00 am

Mokie wrote:
ThePhilosopher wrote:
Feral, despite beign an animal you're quite a genius. cheers
Well that would solve about every single problem that is caused with the Baali and the whole disipline issue.... It's Brilliant. cheers

Thank you. My self-esteem could do with a compliment. Laughing

*wags*
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:08 am

Feral wrote:
Maybe we could do this Redemption style.
Do you remember the clock hanging in the room where the Embrace takes place? I see a short sequence of scenes:
- after Embrace everything goes as always up to the scene where you see the clock
- then you see the clock in daylight
-then the clock again, at night.

Maybe with scenes of sunup/sundown.
That would neatly imply that the Sire had at least one night to explain things
Now I just wonder how to create this? Are there files of the games cut scenes stored somewhere? Or are they mixed in with the game engine? scratch
study Malk or Zero should know.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:08 pm

The cutscenes. As far as I understand it, there are files in the \vdata folder with info on the camera settings. But that subfolder isn't unpacked for the patch. The animated scene, and the info which camera settings are to be used is stored on the map files, with python scripts for things that need to be set at runtime, like which model to use for sire, childe, and the stakers. The spoken text is in the dialog files for the npcs involved. and the sound and lip files in the apropriate subdirectories of the \sounds folder.
There is even a kind of logic in the stucture. But you either need a machiavellian mind to understand it, or a malkavian one Shocked

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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:15 pm

Ah yes, the delightfully twisted Malkavian mind of Machiavelli. Such sweet music the children of the night do make...
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:34 pm

I just got done reading this entire thread, all 7 pages... PHEW that was a lot of reading! study

Some of the ideas were really good while others are just not up my alley in terms of the technical difficulty. As far as making new cut scenes, the only one I know of who has successfully pulled this off has been Burgermeister and even he said it was very difficult. So making a new cut scene in any way is out of the question for now.

After everything I read, I came up with a mock draft of what I’d like to do with this question. First off, I do agree that we should include the Tremere haven as a possible new haven. I hate leaving that perfectly awesome room empty like it is now. Secondly, the idea of it only being a possibility to a Baali masquerading as a Tremere is both possible and realistic. But, this poses the question “How did the player know that Baali are hunted and know to masquerade as a Tremere in the first place”? The cut scene clearly shows the player and the sire did not have time to sit down and chat about it.

Well the best idea I’ve heard so far came from Mokie in the early pages when he suggested a book or email be sent to the player from an anonymous person explaining how this works, then let the player handle it in the best way from that point. So what I’m suggesting is this.

1. We make this an optional side quest for Baali only. This would be an opportunity for the Baali PC to earn some xtra XP that the other clans cannot. Kind’ve like how the Salubri do when they use their healing.

2. I like the idea that some mysterious person quietly slips a lore book in the mailbox, on the history of the Baali stressing that they survive the final nights by masquerading as a different clan, the Tremere, and that it is critical to their survival that they do so.

3. I think upon picking up the book from the mailbox, that would start the beginning of the quest letting the player know that when they get to LA, they should attempt to infiltrate the home of the local Regent. I think it would be best to start the game with the book in the mailbox so the player has time to plan accordingly. Plus it would go well with the letter from Strauss sitting on the players desk.

4. Once the player goes and meets Strauss, they will have additional dialogue with him to attempt to win his trust. Of course these lines only appear if the player actually read the book in his mailbox. If the player has a high enough ??????? then he can win Strauss’s approval and move into the chantry as well as get additional XP for completing the quest.

Several questions…
1. What does the player need in order to infiltrate the chantry and gain his trust? Persuasion seems logical, but would Seduction or Intimidation work? Money? Power? Maybe even base it on a combination of Subterfuge and something else?

2. In TFN, the player can blackmail Strauss to give him/her money to keep quiet about the gargoyle. How would we handle that? Would Strauss kick the player out of the chantry or do we simply remove the option of blackmailing if the player has moved in? Removing the dialogue option would be the easiest from a technical standpoint and then we could also limit the player (who already got extra XP for the quest) from getting the extra money for blackmailing him.

3. Who sent the book to the player explaining how this works? I personally think it should be a Baali elder looking out for the player. We don’t necessarily have to design this elder and can easily remain in the shadows, but I don’t’ think it should be the cabbie or “the friend”, it should be a new character altogether, even if we never meet them.

Let’s discuss….
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:03 pm

Sounds very good Zer0, and here's my own opinions. As far as how to get the room, Persuasion makes a hell of a lot more sense than Intimidation (really? who's gonna realistically intimidate Strauss?) and Seduction could be a possibility, but makes a little less sense than Persuasion. Personally, I like the idea of either Intelligence or Wits + Subterfuge. As far as the book in the mailbox, great idea. But I don't think there's enough to justify making a new unseen NPC. I really like the idea of either "A friend" or the cabbie, or possibly Jack, but he seems the least likely. Being that the Baali is my favorite clan to play in TFN, I really look forward to this being implemented in the next version (whenever I decide I've hunted enough dragons to go back to Bloodlines, that is Smile ).
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:49 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:
I just got done reading this entire thread, all 7 pages... PHEW that was a lot of reading! study


Several questions…
1. What does the player need in order to infiltrate the chantry and gain his trust? Persuasion seems logical, but would Seduction or Intimidation work? Money? Power? Maybe even base it on a combination of Subterfuge and something else?

Persuasion, maybe coupled with Wits/Intelligence + Subtrefuge. Seduction shouldn't go far with Strauss as far as I am concerned. You don't get to be a Reagent by being touchy. The Pyramid is a lot like Gestapo or NKVD, only exponentially meaner and more powerful. Sensitive types got culled in that type of an organisation faster than you say WTF. As for Intimidation, that one should be allowed... And grant the player trying it instant Final Death.

Zer0Morph wrote:

2. In TFN, the player can blackmail Strauss to give him/her money to keep quiet about the gargoyle. How would we handle that? Would Strauss kick the player out of the chantry or do we simply remove the option of blackmailing if the player has moved in? Removing the dialogue option would be the easiest from a technical standpoint and then we could also limit the player (who already got extra XP for the quest) from getting the extra money for blackmailing him.

Definitely remove the dialouge for blacmail. PC who got enough sense to weasel his way into Strauss' favor should have more sense than to waste this for a few bucks.
But if allowed, make Strauss kick the player out of the Chantry. And possibly make attempt or two to get the lowly, ungrateful Apprentice "sent to Vienna". Maybe a sidequest to avoid that fate (difficult)?

Zer0Morph wrote:

3. Who sent the book to the player explaining how this works? I personally think it should be a Baali elder looking out for the player. We don’t necessarily have to design this elder and can easily remain in the shadows, but I don’t’ think it should be the cabbie or “the friend”, it should be a new character altogether, even if we never meet them.

Let’s discuss….

Not through LaCroix controlled email for sure. A book would be nice. Or a letter in the mailbox? Jack doesn't sound Baali to me at all. A "friend"? New NPC might be desireable. And kept as vague and mysterious as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:06 pm

Thanks for the feedback Voraxith and Feral. The reason I brought up Subterfuge and maybe something else instead of point blank Persuasion is because Persuasion is over used in Bloodlines, in my opinion. It seems like everything good is dependent on it, and I'd like to get away from that. However if Persuasion is the logical choice then we should probably end up going with that. We could always make it a blend of Subterfuge and Charisma or something like that. But you have to look at it from a players perspective. If I were a player and didn't know the mechanics of the quest, I would naturally assume Persuasion is what is needed to convince Strauss to trust me as Tremere.

I agree w/ Feral in that we should just make the blackmailing option disappear from dialogue if the Baali has moved in. Getting kicked out of the Chantry would be a pain in the technical ass for me and then writing additional code so Strauss hunts the player later, blah it sounds like a mess. Removing the option seems like a solid approach.

I agree that we shouldn't create a new NPC as the book sender, just for this. I think an extremely vague individual, maybe just a name at most should suffice, and certainly someone you never meet. I would think the Baali (after finding out what happened to your sire and know you're wandering the world alone, confused, and with their blood) would try to either A.) Have you destroyed so you don't accidently reveal their existence or B.) Teach you as quickly and quietly as they can about who you are and how you are to survive by blending in as a Tremere. Obviously they took option "B" thankfully, by sending you the book to read (and not using LaCroix's intranet by email).
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PostSubject: Re: Baali Haven!   Today at 5:32 am

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