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Nosferatu's Childe
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PostSubject: Question About Grout   Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:31 pm

So, I always wondered, how come when you find grout tied to his bed he appears to have been killed by a stake?
I thought stakes only paralyse you, yet he's there lying on his own ashes with stake through his ribs, right where his heart was supposed to be.
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PostSubject: Re: Question About Grout   Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:59 pm

You may also note that he is tied to the bed. Staked, too. So I think Ming Xiao had her time with him... Long and painful time, when he was paralyzed and defencless. Otherwise, his Demantation would turn her brain to custard...
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Nosferatu's Childe
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PostSubject: Re: Question About Grout   Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:24 pm

Yeah, I thought that too, but how was she able to tie down THE MALKAVIAN PRIMOGEN?
I mean, he must have been a powerful kindred, right?
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PostSubject: Re: Question About Grout   Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:59 pm

An Elder, for sure... She must have used some quite powerful trick... Or maybe she used his torpid wife as leverage? Who knows...
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Maxus Corvin
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PostSubject: Re: Question About Grout   Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:40 pm

It seems he viewed the powers of his blood as merely symptom of the virus that he believed Vampirism to be. If he was willing to use them, I cannot say. Perhaps, if Ming did speak with him first, she lied to him about the bargain he mentions. It's likely that she would've mentioned a cure, which he would've welcomed. Then she did indeed cure him, but delivering to him his final death(going along with the idea that many species seem to have, that the only way to heal Vampirism is to kill Vampires).

Though this is obviously speculation. It could be a whole other scenario, or simply something that was never written, or never really explained.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Question About Grout   Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:18 pm

Keep Ming's shapechanging ability in mind. We don't know as who or what she appeared to him. And of course we must consider the circumstances of his embrace. Apart from the unavoidable madness of his bloodline, he was probably more a caitif than anything else. So dementation might have come as a sideeffect of the madness, but I'm not too sure about his auspex abilities.
She might even have arranged the remains after his final death.
The Faustian bargain he mentions in the tapes refers to his descision not to show up at the Primogen meetings anymore.

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Nosferatu's Childe
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PostSubject: Re: Question About Grout   Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:21 pm

That all makes sense, I had forgoten about both ming xiao's abilty to shapshift and Grout's desire of a cure.
I guess we'll never really know, maybe she pretended to be one of those weird people he kept around so taht she could get close to him AND after revealing herself convinced that she could cure him.

Whatever the way, Ming Xiao is clearly skilled.

Also: if she could kill him, and you kill her, you could've killed him.Right?
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PGM1961
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PostSubject: Re: Question About Grout   Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:41 pm

Nosferatu's Childe wrote:
Also: if she could kill him, and you kill her, you could've killed him.Right?

You mean like in a fair fight? There is no such thing, except perhaps in boxing matches. In real life, the last thing you want is a fair fight... you want the odds stacked in your favor, especially when you're fighting for your life. Grout might have been able to hold his own with Dementation, or at least escape, whether he fought you or Ming Xiao. But we'll never know.

I think it's quite possible Ming Xiao used her shapeshifting ability to get close to Grout, and stake him. Maybe even as Nines Rodriguez, since we know Ming is familiar with that shape. I also think Grout's death scene was staged, for the benefit of the player. That way you could report back to LaCroix that Grout was killed, and you saw Nines leaving the house.

I doubt Ming tortured Grout though... it was an assassination, pure and simple. Although it's possible she likes to play with her food, she never showed any hints of liking torture. She did have Barabbas tortured, but it was a clinical thing, to determine Kindred weaknesses; and she also had someone else do it. Her threats toward your character at the end are death threats, not torture threats -- although she did express a desire to see you in a certain hell (one of the many Chinese hells).

Spoiler:
 
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Question About Grout   Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:07 pm

Perhaps, as the pc, I could kill Grout. But why would I want to do it? I didn't even know the guy before the jester sent me out there.

And of course the death scene, especially Mings leaving the place looking like Nines, at the time the pc arrived, was staged to frame Nines for the murder.
The additional, and probably really coincidental arrival of Bach, was another bonus for LaCroix. It prevents the primogen looking into the affai themselves before agreeing on the bloodhunt against Nines. I'd even believe in LaCroix dropping a hint about the exact location of Grout's mansion at the right time to the inquisition.

Isn't it a kind of showing you respect from Ming's side, if she deems you worthy of a special hell?

PGM, for your
Spoiler:
 

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Nosferatu's Childe
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PostSubject: Re: Question About Grout   Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:34 pm

Childe of Malkav wrote:
Perhaps, as the pc, I could kill Grout. But why would I want to do it? I didn't even know the guy before the jester sent me out there.

Well, "the jester" has you running around like his errand boy, and I believe he feared Grout.
Maybe if you had killed him you could let him know he's next unless he leaves you alone.
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PostSubject: Re: Question About Grout   Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:54 pm

I don't think it was that difficult, really. I mean, Grout never appeared to have learned disciplines with his Sire, nor he appeared to have been attempting them at the people in his mansion. I think he was pretty weak, combat wise. And ming can digivolve into a Cthulhu's kid, it must have not been that hard.

Lacroix could have sent his sheriff or any of the Ventrue in his tower, but that would cause suspicions and, if someone saw, it would be disastrous to his plan. So he needed ming not because of her Lovecraftian powers, but rather her ability to shapeshift and because she was not a part of the Camarilla.
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PostSubject: Re: Question About Grout   Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:12 pm

I think, when you meet Ming after Hallowbrook, that is the one time when she is honest. Because it fits her own ends...
Lacroix needed her shapeshifting abilities, and the pcs newness, and naiveness, to get rid of two problems at once: The anarch leader and a problematic primogen.

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