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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Feedback needed   Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:28 pm

Hi everybody,

I believe, at least some of you already have started a game with CE 1.5 by now.
I'd like to know what you think about taking out the books, and instead only having the college.
And what do you think about the college rules as I have set them up?

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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:19 pm

Malkav, could you sticky it please? This way the topic wouldn't sink in the depths of the forum.
I will post feedback as soon as I'm finished with my current TFN walktrough. Baali are so sweet Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:21 pm

Aww, man... Think about our reputation on the forum. Animals are seen as cute, Infernalists not necessarily so.
What if the Baron Malkav calls Blood Hunt on us? Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:21 pm

Then i'll have more meat for my experiments. Everyone is happy alien
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:46 pm

I don't have any problems with animals or demons. But this bloody wizard just tried to sell me off as some kind of ersatz ventrue... affraid

When I catch up with her, I might cut off your bloodcookie supply Evil or Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:58 pm

Nooo Sad
We would have to start hunting again. Hunting mortals is fun, there is so many of them that one or three less doesn't make any difference... But bloodcookies are better.

*thinks hard*

But wait, where does all that blood for bloodcookies come from?

On second thought, our resident Tzimisce would be happy to see a Bloodhunt on Tremere. But we would defend our benefactress with Voraxith, so whoever wants to feel Feral Claws...


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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:59 pm

... Very Happy

*jumps around* now you love me now you love me <_<


Edit : : Feedback !


Okay, Malkav, I think you saw on my playthrough that I poked around the grab/throwing items. Third person is AWESOME !
The lack of books : frankly I didn't even remember there were books. I like the online college, a lot !
It runs very smoothly, even with res patch, even in window mod, and (!) love the logo at the beginning (I had not noticed since in non window mod, I don't get to see nothing until the main screen <<)

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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:14 pm

For the grab/trow, by now I have found out that you can also implement it with selectable 1st/3rd person view.
Good to hear that you like the college. Hope I can find good titles and texts for the still missing ones before the release of the next version. Any ideas?
The logo is actually Zer0's work for TFN. But since we have a common forum, I thought we should also start our mods with the same logos.

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PostSubject: Feedback   Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:53 pm

Finished a play though as a Tremere, had no problems at.
I like the way camera view is now user defined.
I am not sure if I like the books taken out yet.
Will have to have another play though as a Malk next time, and make my mind up.
I liked the new Akeem quests. Nice to see him there, and every thing worked a treat. Each editon gets better and better, and I have tried them all.

Great work.


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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:19 am

Thanks for the info.
For the camera you have to thank Wesp. The change came with his latest version of the patch.
And without taking out the books, there probably would not be an Akeem quest. There is only a limited number of possible items in the game. And I needed two or three items for the akeem quest...
What do you think about grabbing, throwing items in 3rd person view?

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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:09 am

So I don't have to search for errors in the college files Laughing
Good to know that. Thanks for the reply.

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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:51 am

Childe of Malkav wrote:

What do you think about grabbing, throwing items in 3rd person view?

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I rather like it it makes life or should I say unlife easier.
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:44 pm

I've played it through two times now, without any major problems.

The mail college is much improved, with all the new texts and the more forgiving bloodcosts. I never managed to get near the money needed to finish all courses though. One thing: I don't know how new this is 'cause I seldom buy auspex, but the haven computer shuts off all disciplins, and that makes the "Intelligence +3" completly useless. I really liked how I could choose reward in Bertrams treasure hunt quest. Lovely!

Didn't noticed anything new about views, other than that the num pad keys were unbound.

The first playthrough was with a nosferatu (potence and obfusacte). First nossie for me, so I can't really say if anything was new or out of place. Found an enigma machine at Giovanni's. Weird.

Second was a toreador (auspex and celerity). No CE related problems, but I got a near fatal "*ENGINE ERROR* ED_Alloc: no free edicts". Found a solution in this post:
http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/vampire-tm-bloodlines-47/engine-error-ed_alloc-no-free-edicts-57808.html#post970147

The firearms-5 book at Leopold's was replaced by Bertrams cd-rom in both playthroughs.

Great job all in all! Most bug free patch I've tried so far.
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:19 am

Finished a playthrough (and a few partials). I did find one book in Fu Syndicate.

The college works pretty well. I'll have to play with it again to see if I can milk a few extra points out of it by how I spend my XP. The bloodcost was enough to make want to go out and restock after taking a course (sometimes squeezing in two), but not so much I was afeared for my unlife when taking one. Nice balance. You may want to pick a different word other than "courses" though - "credits" would be better I think: 9 skills/talents/knowledge*5 dots each =45, so if each dot is a course, which it's not, then you should be able to learn them all with enough money. "Credits" make it more obvious that some courses will use up more of your "college XP" than others.

I definitely prefer the college system over books - books "forced" you down the "path of most XP" if you wanted to be really effective endgame. College lets you focus on what you what, when you want. I'd consider expanding the idea a bit and taking away Nines brawl/melee and Romero's firearms bonuses (and upping the course number to balance it out). Maybe that's going a bit too far though. Still it would get out of the "I don't want to put another point in X now, or I'll waste <insert name>'s reward later on" mindset.

Did dropped items always stay on the maps? I never payed any attention before, because money was kind of pointless. I made quite a bit running back and forth between the Lotus blossom/Glaze and Tseng's selling one gun at a time.

I still think dexterity penalties to armor are pointless (and it's such a trivial change to make) - the only use for dexterity is lockpicking, which you can't do in combat anyway. It just makes you have to put on/take off your armor when picking locks. A dodge penalty would make sense, but then you're just robbing Peter to pay Paul, and defense comes out a wash. Maybe a penalty to perception/melee or some other combat related skill/feat? I may play around with that a bit and let you know how it goes.

More potential blood dolls in clubs is a good thing, and I liked having to look around for people wondering who I could feed from this time. The Jezebel Locke look-alike was a surprise, in a good way. Once you get to Chinatown you get more blood dolls than you know what to do with in the Lotus Parlor (the place stays a combat zone - intended?), but at that point in the game you're pretty much rushing to the end, at least I usually am.

I don't know if this is fixable (I think I repeated it to make sure) - the cameras from Imalias and Mitnick's Nocturne quest stack, and the game doesn't seem to know how to handle that well. After placing the one in the Nocturne my haven went all wonky - lego skeleton people walking around, that sort of thing. Actually the whole Skyeline map got messed up, but I've had that happen before too (I think it was paintings showing up everywhere that time), so maybe that map is just unstable.

What is it exactly that makes the disciplines not work on the mousewheels? If it's the names, I'd rather you kept the names the same and changed the effects. I know you can do the hotkeys workaround, but I'm a mouse/gamepad kind of guy.

The custom music folder is great - nice and streamlined, only one place to put the music, and works pretty well - the only problems I had were on my end with the music files (I converted with ProTools, and a few of them the stereo tracks didn't quite line up at the start, so it would throw the tempo way up or down - reload fixed anyway). This time I also changed some of the ambience/combat files just because - killing Romero's zombies to "Zombie Jamboree" is just too cool geek

Another note - during the bloodhunt, the vampires at the end of your little haven alley don't see through obfuscate anymore, which makes doing that run about as hard as jogging around the parking garage for Fat Larry, except it's even shorter.

The "save Heather" option is nice, but it would be even better with a couple dialogues later on to show that the story has progressed - even if it's only your lines that change (ie - off the "Master?" branch, using story state as the check). Really cool would be putting her in the final cutscene and walking off with you, but I don't know how editable those are.

All in all a good playthrough though Smile No game-breaking bugs that I saw, and the ones I did see were from me mucking around with stuff (as I am wont to do - checked to see what would happen if I got both the Skyeline and Tremere haven. Both seemed to work ok, but Heather and the trunk move back and forth between the two - I know if I were a Kindred, I want more than one Haven, including one no one else knew about).

Was there a use for the "Guy Magazine" starring Imalia? If there was I never found it. If there isn't, that would be an obvious object for you to change to one of the new ones, rather than working with the middle of the book list.
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:11 am

Childe of Malkav wrote:
The logo is actually Zer0's work for TFN. But since we have a common forum, I thought we should also start our mods with the same logos.

I'm glad you used it, I forgot to say something after I made it. Smile

By the way, what's this about a new camera system? Are you guys doing something different from the number keys to rotate the camera view?
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:28 am

Zer0Morph wrote:


By the way, what's this about a new camera system? Are you guys doing something different from the number keys to rotate the camera view?

No, actually, when you take an object (cans, woods and whatnot), it doesn't switch to first person anymore, and you can throw the object or move it without it being 1st person.
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:22 pm

Oh ok cool, what a fun little idea! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:22 pm

Thanks for all the replies. I have found the time to comment on them today. So here goes:

@ Ringo:
The discipline shutdown at the haven computer is there at least since version 1.4. Of course you're right that now, since there are no more books, the int boost is obsolete. But I'm thinking of minor changes in the disciplines for later versions anyway.
If you or someone else should come up with ideas for titles and texts for the college courses that still don't have individual entries, you're welcome.

For the camera angles, you should be able to set them in the keyboard options menue now. At least the 4 major directions in the current version.

For finding stuff in the places where originally the books have been: I left the items on the maps to make the merging with new version of Wesps patch easier. But for some reason, the hiding seems to work erratically.

Sorry, can't tell you anything at all about your engine error.

@ mouser:
As stated above, the hiding of the items seems to work erratically. That will be cleared up for the next version.

I agree, the name "courses" for everything concerning the study options isn't the best choice. I had intended to make the description easier to comprehend since I first came up with the idea of the college. For the next version I have decided to use the terms "subject", "course", and "lesson". So the subject of firearms is devided into the courses firearms 1 to firearms 5. Firearms 1 and 2 consist of one lesson each. Firearms 3 is two lessons... So a lesson is worth 3xp and costs 250$.
I hope with this distiction, it will be easier to understand...
For comparison with the books: You can squeeze 44 lessons out of them, if you use the "sell/rebuy twice" option for all low and medium grade books. The college has 45 lessons.
And about the npc teachers. Well I think the same way. I don't want to cap their abilities at one or two. Especially for the ones later in the game, like Romero, or Bertram for finding his cd in the warrens. But on the other hand, handing out a reward worth 9 or 12 xp for a simple "bring an item" quest is way over the top. I'm still thinking of a good idea to solve this dilemma. Suggestions are welcome.

Dropped items stay where you dropped them. It was always so. Just remember that you can't return to every map. So if e.g. you want to sell all weapons from the beachhouse, you have to bring them out to the beach and drop them there before you pick up the astrolite. And guns you own are auto pickup until your ammo for the weapon is full.

The armor? My thoughts exactly. But I haven't come up with a good idea yet.

I haven't done anything with the Lotus Blossom map. But even if it were masquerade area after the fight with the tong (That's easily done), there still are good chances to find a girl alone in a room...

For the discipline/mousewheel problem. Afaik, it is related to the bloodcost, not the name. But the major discipline changes were done before I got on the team, and I haven't tried anything on that matter myself yet.

Well the Heather dialog is on my "to do" list. But the priority is so low that it has always been kicked off by something more important or interesting.

For the guy magazine, talk to Imalia again, after you got your reward for the Tawni quest...

@ Zer0 and Claudia:
The camera angle for 3rd person view is now a keyboard option, just the same as any other. Not fixed in autoexec.cfg any more. And you're no more forced in 1st person view when you pick up an item for throwing.

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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Childe of Malkav wrote:

For comparison with the books: You can squeeze 44 lessons out of them, if you use the "sell/rebuy twice" option for all low and medium grade books. The college has 45 lessons.
And about the npc teachers. Well I think the same way. I don't want to cap their abilities at one or two. Especially for the ones later in the game, like Romero, or Bertram for finding his cd in the warrens. But on the other hand, handing out a reward worth 9 or 12 xp for a simple "bring an item" quest is way over the top. I'm still thinking of a good idea to solve this dilemma. Suggestions are welcome.

The simplest way would be to have them reward you by adding a "course" to your college count. I think you have Bertram do that in the beginning of the game somewhere IIRC.


Childe of Malkav wrote:
The armor? My thoughts exactly. But I haven't come up with a good idea yet.

Perception/melee - the "obvious" combat stats. -1/-2 to both for the heavy leather and body armor.

Stamina - wouldn't make sense except that stamina also affects bloodloss - so you could up the armor's defense to make up for the stamina loss (so the actual armor value stays at what it was), but your bloodloss timer would click 30sec or 1 min faster.

Oh, and since you've conquered the camera when picking up and throwing things, here's an idea for your next 'challenge':

Have dialog NOT unequip you. I hate starting every boss fight by having to reclick my disciplines and then look for whatever weapon I was holding a second ago. The discipline thing I understand, the weapons... not so much.

Oh, and not auto-attacking when you use the taxi would be nice too. Wouldn't be too bad except you face away from the cab where that cop likes to hang out when you zone to Santa Monica. Nothing like coming out of the loading screen to find you're already being beat on with a stick. Then take a bit to wonder whether it would be easier to run and hide or reload. Or just kill the cop and dance your humanity back
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:30 am

mouser9169 wrote:
The simplest way would be to have them reward you by adding a "course" to your college count. I think you have Bertram do that in the beginning of the game somewhere IIRC.
I have used that option in 1.4. Now you can select which stats (worth 6xp) you want to learn from him directly.
For people like Romero, I don't think adding lessons to the college is a good idea. I just can't see a zombie killing ghoul having enough hacking skills to do something like that. That's more of Bertrams or Mitnicks cup of tea.


mouser9169 wrote:
Childe of Malkav wrote:
The armor? My thoughts exactly. But I haven't come up with a good idea yet.

Perception/melee - the "obvious" combat stats. -1/-2 to both for the heavy leather and body armor.

Stamina - wouldn't make sense except that stamina also affects bloodloss - so you could up the armor's defense to make up for the stamina loss (so the actual armor value stays at what it was), but your bloodloss timer would click 30sec or 1 min faster.
I can't do anything about the armor's actual armor rating. That's how the game engine recognizes it.
Lowering attack stats? I don't think so. Especially not the ranged ones. Even the body armor is not that cumbersome. A small penalty on defense would probably be ok. And perhaps a larger one on social feats. Preferably along with some restriction as to where you can change clothes. Though, doing it on stage in a club might get you a tip, based on your appearence attribute Laughing Perhaps not if you happen to be a Nossie affraid

mouser9169 wrote:
Oh, and since you've conquered the camera when picking up and throwing things, here's an idea for your next 'challenge':

Have dialog NOT unequip you. I hate starting every boss fight by having to reclick my disciplines and then look for whatever weapon I was holding a second ago. The discipline thing I understand, the weapons... not so much.
Sorry. that's a completely different thing. I don't even have an idea where to start looking for that.

mouser9169 wrote:
Oh, and not auto-attacking when you use the taxi would be nice too. Wouldn't be too bad except you face away from the cab where that cop likes to hang out when you zone to Santa Monica. Nothing like coming out of the loading screen to find you're already being beat on with a stick. Then take a bit to wonder whether it would be easier to run and hide or reload. Or just kill the cop and dance your humanity back
The only times I have ever encountered a problem like that was when I was killed in a fight while attacking at the same time. Then it seems, you can't get out of attack mode. The solution for that one is: save your game, go back to the desktop, start the game again.

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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:37 pm

Voraxith wrote:

(By the way, we SO need a fanged smiley emoticon...)

... named Edward. lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:57 pm

Feral wrote:
Voraxith wrote:

(By the way, we SO need a fanged smiley emoticon...)

... named Edward. lol!
Then I'll have to dementate you in believing you're a cute little girl... queen

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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:10 pm

Voraxith wrote:
Feral: How DARE you speak that horrid name in these hallowed halls?!?!

Malkav: Dude, I so have a Nefandi npc who does that to ornery players in my table top games. Smile

What, just proposing?
*looks up and tries to look like an adorable ball of fur
Not too convincingly...*
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:51 pm

Childe of Malkav wrote:
I can't do anything about the armor's actual armor rating. That's how the game engine recognizes it.

I just checked and was able to change armor ratings just fine... but there does seem to be a hard-coded cap of +5.
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PostSubject: Re: Feedback needed   Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:59 pm

Voraxith wrote:
Personally, I think that the Dex adjustments for the heavy leather and the body armore are perfect just the way they are. Hell, they're realistic AND pretty close to how the actual p&p game tackle the issue. But that's just my $.02 worth. Very Happy

(By the way, we SO need a fanged smiley emoticon...)

In the P&P game, can you say, "I run around the corner, take off my armor, pick the lock, put my armor back on, and slip through the door in the 10 seconds before the guard walks down the hallway"?

The problem is you're using a non-combat penalty to try and balance a combat bonus. This doesn't work because if you're not in combat, you have no need for the armor and can simply take it off. When you head back to a combat area, you can put the armor back on (you can even wait until combat starts if you want).
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