My impression about TFN mod

Well , i'm a wannabe if compared to the work that all you guys made with this mod ; i'm really impressed .

I've never expect to find new disciplines , all the various modes finded around the web include some extra clan , some reskin , but all that you do , new quest , new NPC ecc , i can't believe it.

Ok after the good , now the bad

I found this mod , difficult for me to play and the combination of the powers put me in the condition to always must use a Firearm ( with a Setis for example).
As i wrote in another post , i'm not a fan of the Blood Loss , it can be a good idea but in some quest i think can be too much problematic.
Obeah , the first power is equal to Auspex ... and the others (follow) ...

some powers , give +1 till +3 modifiers , frenzy check bonus ( if to be true i never had much problem with frenzy cause i try to never be without blood , and i'm i take damage it mean that i'm dead ) but if compared with the original powers make me a little sad cause are a little bit weakers

Just as question , is not possible include all the basic clans plus all the new ?
Now i'm going to play the Clan quest mod , let's see what waiting me

Welcome to our forum, young blood! We are always thirsty
Bloodloss was introduced to make player feel like a Kindred. So blood is not sort of mana for powering spells/healing. Blood is now actualy used to keep your undead body together. So you have to plan, keep feeding in mind. Be cautious. That adds to the immersion factor, at least for me. Don't like it? Disable it, it's your game after all. But first give it a try.

everett wrote:

Just as question , is not possible include all the basic clans plus all the new ?

Game engine limitations. Sorry.

Your statements show how much different ways there are to play this game. I have played my setite mostly using a knife for the fights. For some opponents like bishop Vick or the large tzimisce creations, I prefer the glock. More firepower is only needed later in the game, for some of the bosses.

For the bloodtimer, I wouldn't want to miss it.

The only thing about TFN I don't like is the importance of haggling. Though I managed to get a Bali through the game without rising manipulation or finance, except for the free point from Larry. But I probably only manaed due to the int and xp bonus. And I was not able to afford better armor. Well Obfuscate and Presence is a killer combination if you want to play a stealthy character.

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I'm glad to read your comments and your point of view ; yeah people play in different way , i'm not a fan of stealth and ninja path so i like more the powerplayer , is funny for me to remember that at the end is a game . Yes i'm not a fan of reality.

The most that i liked in this mod , first the new displiplines and graphics , second the NPC ! i really enjoy to speak with them , to find extra dialogue not necessary linked with quest or game.

Yesterday i installed the clan-quest-mod-v2.1 but except for the clans , i prefer the Final Night for all the rest.
There's only one things that i don't understand , why the shop sell the weapons but not the bullets ?! is a bug ? (like the uzi in Santa monica)

I wish to have the knowledge for make my mod ; this my wish list :

The Final Night with the traditional clans , or choose in the installation if play the old or new clans
a HOW TO document for insert new NPC with extra dialogue
a standard for the installation , Main directory or vampire folder . Can be insert a control over the registry that find by himself where to put the files ?!
Put the order of patch , addons installation in the install procedure ; before the "next" ... something like , this mod is compatible with : ...list . The order is this... ---- I know u wrote everywhere this , but in this way the gamers is forced to read it.

just a note : all you guys make a fantastic work , my ideas is just to talk , if there's something you don't like it , just ignore.

If it were so easy, or even possible at all, to add the new clans while keepingthe old ones, we surely would have done. But bloodlines is a bitch to mod, because there are no plugins, and no level editors. That's also why you can't simply use two mods at the same time.
Of course we can force players to read, or at least state they have read, the installation guide before continuing. But be honest, if you download something, and are asked to acknoledge that you have read the EULA or the installation howto, you just click the continue button.

Actually there is a manual for modders. You can find it in the tools subdirectory, as it is part of wesps patch, and therefore included in the mods too.
On first reading it, you probably won't understand half of what Dheu writes there, but if you get started and know your way around a bit it will come handy as a reference guide. Then there are the modding tips on our forum.

If you really are interested in learning how to mod this game, I'd suggest you start slowly with just editing player parts of the dialog until you are a bit more familiar with the directory structure and the commands. Then go along to simple things you can do with Python. Like making Muriettas key available right from the start of the game, changing the bloodstock in the fridge, things like that.
Luckily, most of the important files are unpacked into simple textfiles when you use wesps patch or one of the mods.

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Modding this game reminds a lot of modding Diablo 2: a lot of the data is stored in text files that are read at runtime. That made sense back in the days when D2 was released...

Python isn't a terribly difficult language to learn, but being an "old school" developer (I've still got my 1st edition K&R that I learned from), I can't recommend it as a first computer language - you'll pick up too many bad habits. If you do edit the .py files, be sure to delete the corresponding .pyc so the game is forced to recompile.

Oh, and once a level is compiled and loaded, that's it. So if you're working on a mod for the Hallowbrook Hotel, you need to save a game outside, before you ever enter the place, and always start there to test your changes. Once you enter, bradbury is set, and it won't matter what you do to the files.

I never saw the original post until now...

Thoughts on Obeah... I love it! If you can max it out it is very useful! Adds soak, strength, safety factor if you use up a lot of blood, etc. Plus the effects rock.

Feral wrote:

Welcome to our forum, young blood! We are always thirsty
Bloodloss was introduced to make player feel like a Kindred. So blood is not sort of mana for powering spells/healing. Blood is now actualy used to keep your undead body together.

This custom rule of bloodloss is interesting, but in my mind it's even exaggerated. Rules of the Masquerade roleplaying game say a vampire lost 1 blood point every night... So, in TFN, 1 blood point every 4/5 minutes seem to me a bit too much. If i take a look in the game events, every location (Santa Monica, Downtown, Hollywood and Chinatown) must take at least two nights for full completion (example: in the introduction, the Embrace scene take a full night. The embrace start at 00:37, watch the clock in the room, and the new vampire wake up at 03:46 i think. The Prince CANNOT call all Los Angeles kindred in few hours, so the trial in the Theatre must start in the following night). So, i should prefer a longer bloodloss, and this is a more true "feeling like kindred". I'm wrong?

The main story happens in one week of time, as you can read in the kuei Jin logs.

Claudia wrote:

The main story happens in one week of time, as you can read in the kuei Jin logs.

If you think to the reports of the Kuei-Jin in SM, i must disagree. Only the last two reports have as object the Player Character (and for a period of two consecutive days), as even signed the arrival of the PC in Santa Monica.

Anthony wrote:

Feral wrote:

Welcome to our forum, young blood! We are always thirsty
Bloodloss was introduced to make player feel like a Kindred. So blood is not sort of mana for powering spells/healing. Blood is now actualy used to keep your undead body together.

This custom rule of bloodloss is interesting, but in my mind it's even exaggerated. Rules of the Masquerade roleplaying game say a vampire lost 1 blood point every night... So, in TFN, 1 blood point every 4/5 minutes seem to me a bit too much. If i take a look in the game events, every location (Santa Monica, Downtown, Hollywood and Chinatown) must take at least two nights for full completion (example: in the introduction, the Embrace scene take a full night. The embrace start at 00:37, watch the clock in the room, and the new vampire wake up at 03:46 i think. The Prince CANNOT call all Los Angeles kindred in few hours, so the trial in the Theatre must start in the following night). So, i should prefer a longer bloodloss, and this is a more true "feeling like kindred". I'm wrong?

This is one of those spots where computer gameplay and pen and paper gameplay clash. The Prince can indeed call all the Los Angeles Vampires in a few hours - remember they all talk telepathically with each other: Nines has a line about half of Los Angeles yapping in his ear, and The Camarilla ending of the Vanilla game has Max talking with his "Lord".

In any case, the pace you're talking about would only have the player losing maybe 14 units of blood over the whole game: hardly enough to even notice, certainly not enough to affect gameplay. Things happen at a faster pace in a CRPG than in P&P (whether Vampire, D&D, or any other variant thereof). Even using D&D miniatures rules, DM'ing (storytelling, whatever) the Hell at the Hallowbrook would be a bitch to keep track of everything. But in a computer game, you just keep on gunning and chugging along.

The news of a "telepathy" sound strange for me, sorry. Perhaps it's my mistake, but i don't remember nothing of this, although i've finished the game several times... I believe Kindreds still use phone, or email.

Secondly, the rule of 1 point per night is the rule of the roleplaying game, but if you compare this with 4 minutes of gaming in VTMB, i think this last must be slowed a bit (as arrangement). If you feel right with the four-minutes time, peace

A new question: bullet damage, as (pen an paper) rule, must be treated (for Kine) as Bashing, so, after be soaked, the result must be halved. I'm trying to understand how this is running by game engine. Anyone can help me?

Anthony wrote:

The news of a "telepathy" sound strange for me, sorry. Perhaps it's my mistake, but i don't remember nothing of this, although i've finished the game several times... I believe Kindreds still use phone, or email.

Secondly, the rule of 1 point per night is the rule of the roleplaying game, but if you compare this with 4 minutes of gaming in VTMB, i think this last must be slowed a bit (as arrangement). If you feel right with the four-minutes time, peace

A new question: bullet damage, as (pen an paper) rule, must be treated (for Kine) as Bashing, so, after be soaked, the result must be halved. I'm trying to understand how this is running by game engine. Anyone can help me?

Yes, the Tremere Primogen does indeed communicate telepathically to his senior during the game... unless he has an earpiece and a concealed throat microphone.

I think the blood loss at its current pace makes the game much more exciting and playable. I think in general the CE changes were all good ... I remember the FIRST time I played it I was like "NO WAY! THIS STINKS!" but it grows on you rapidly.

Telepathy is Auspex 4 in pen and paper. And Tremere have a bunch of rituals to communicate with their hierarchy.
Bullets deal lethal damage. Kindred treat it as bashing. It's bashing damage (baseball bat, fists..) that get halven, not the lethal-treated-as-bashing.

I'll rant again when I get on my computer.

Tuishimi wrote:

Anthony wrote:

The news of a "telepathy" sound strange for me, sorry. Perhaps it's my mistake, but i don't remember nothing of this, although i've finished the game several times... I believe Kindreds still use phone, or email.

Secondly, the rule of 1 point per night is the rule of the roleplaying game, but if you compare this with 4 minutes of gaming in VTMB, i think this last must be slowed a bit (as arrangement). If you feel right with the four-minutes time, peace

A new question: bullet damage, as (pen an paper) rule, must be treated (for Kine) as Bashing, so, after be soaked, the result must be halved. I'm trying to understand how this is running by game engine. Anyone can help me?

Yes, the Tremere Primogen does indeed communicate telepathically to his senior during the game... unless he has an earpiece and a concealed throat microphone.

I think the blood loss at its current pace makes the game much more exciting and playable. I think in general the CE changes were all good ... I remember the FIRST time I played it I was like "NO WAY! THIS STINKS!" but it grows on you rapidly.

It took a bit to grow on me as well, but now I think I'll put it in even if I go back to a "normal" install. Without it, there is no passage of time: just one long, endless night. Nothing to push you along at all. Want to heal? Stand in a corner, and rest up (get up and make yourself a sandwich and even aggravated damage will be fixed when you sit back down). You never have to worry about getting back to your haven before a sunrise, take as long as you want to complete missions, etc... Bloodloss changes that by creating an external force that keeps pressuring the character (and hence the player) into doing something. Even if it's only to hop down into the sewers every now and then to munch on some ratcakes, you've got to keep half an eye on your bloodbar now.

It would be difficult (and maybe even worthy of a "challenge" guide), but I think it would be possible to play through the vanilla game without ever feeding (once you're out of the tutorial).

Remember that EVERYTHING is sped up in a CRPG as opposed to P&P. Look at the "normal" healing rate as an example. You can be down to no life bar showing of aggravated damage, back into a corner so no new mobs or anything can get you, and in a few minutes you're back to full health (vanilla game - not CE or TFN). That's not just a "Vampire: Bloodlines" thing, but any P&P style game converted to a CRPG - (Now that I say that, I remember super long heal times in Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale - months of game time go by in what should be "a few days" if you don't have a cleric healing you. Still happens almost instantly in "real time" though). A computer game played at the pace of a tabletop game would be mind-numbingly boring. Even the old "gold-box" D&D games sped some things up (and they are probably the most faithful recreations of a tabletop experience ever made).

Claudia wrote:

Telepathy is Auspex 4 in pen and paper.

My mistake, many years have passed since i played with the RPG.

Claudia wrote:

It's bashing damage (baseball bat, fists..) that get halven, not the lethal-treated-as-bashing.

Same sense of my words, only use of OTHER words.

"A new question: bullet damage, as (pen an paper) rule, must be treated (for Kine) as Bashing, so, after be soaked, the result must be halved. I'm trying to understand how this is running by game engine. Anyone can help me?"


Alright, first, Kine = mortals, Kindred = vampires. Don't use vocabulary if you don't know it (English being my third language, I know this one very well ^^).
In pen and paper World of Darkness, there are three types of wounds : bashing (with a / on the little case for the health), lethal (written X on the case), aggravated (written * on the case).

Bashing damage is baseball bats, tire iron, fists, kicks, running into a door. Bashing heals itself don't leave traces. You can rest it out.
Lethal damage is knives, blades, swords (anything that cuts or enters the body), falling from greater highs, breaking bones, bullets. If not treated, lethal wounds.. are lethal. Burns, acid.. that's all lethal.
Aggravated damage is anything surnatural. For a human, that would be werewolf claws, Gangrel claws, kindred bites. Vampires treat fire as aggravated, but they treat all lethal damage as bashing, and bashing are cut in half. That doesn't mean lethal is cut in half ! That's what I wanted to correct.


You can't expect the video game to play exactly the same as pen and paper, as much as I'd want it to happen, I know it's not possible because one can use one's disciplines in a variety of ways so wide that the computer cannot possibly imagine that the Malkavian wants to use Dementation 1, Passion (which either dulls or puts on edge the emotions present in the target) so to cause the target not to care about another's frenzy.

Uh... no, it isn't an error of English language... I had not reread these topic... You're right, i wrote KINE... Gosh...
I want excuse me to you, in the following posts i believed to have write KINDRED. "Ok Anthony, you sucks"!

HOWEVER: i did not saying lethal damage is halved by anyone; i want to explain who bullets and falls , NORMALLY LETHAL, are considered bashing to vampires (naming them kindred, Cainite, whatever...) and, i believe, even by other undeads, because there are no internal organs to damage; differently in other cases (kine or mortals, Lupines...) are lethal.

Anthony wrote:

Uh... no, it isn't an error of English language... I had not reread these topic... You're right, i wrote KINE... Gosh...
I want excuse me to you, in the following posts i believed to have write KINDRED. "Ok Anthony, you sucks"!

HOWEVER: i did not saying lethal damage is halved by anyone; i want to explain who bullets and falls , NORMALLY LETHAL, are considered bashing to vampires (naming them kindred, Cainite, whatever...) and, i believe, even by other undeads, because there are no internal organs to damage; differently in other cases (kine or mortals, Lupines...) are lethal.

The point is damage gets one adjustment for Kindred:

If it starts off lethal (like a bullet), then it turns into bashing. Full stop.
If it starts off bashing (like a bat), then it would get halved.

It doesn't go Lethal -> Bashing -> halved.

And I don't know if the game engine does the halving bit at all. I'd imagine not (I wouldn't code it that way) since you'd have to double the damage of everything bashing to make the end damage what you want it to be. Simpler to have it do the damage and let the soak feats make the adjustments.

As was posted above, a computer game will never be able to faithfully recreate a tabletop experience, and it's fruitless (and not profitable) to try. All you can do is try to take the spirit of the game and then mold it into mechanics that the computer can work eith while keeping the game interesting and challenging for the player.

Here is the description for Bashing Damage in TFN.

Bashing Soak - "Your ability to shrug off damage from bullets and blunt melee weapons. Bashing can be soaked by anyone but Kindred reduce all bashing damage by 50%. Bullets are treated as bashing against Kindred and as lethal against everyone else. Stamina, as well as clothing and body armor contribute to Bashing soak."

I ran tests to see if bullet damage was cut in half for Kindred so here's what I did. I create a Kindred with the same Bashing soak, same stats, as a thug. Using the same Ranged Feat score for both, I fired the same gun at the Kine as I did the Kindred. I shot both of them a good 20 times and calculated the damage range.

The damage range for the Kine was exactly 1/2 of what my damage did to the Kindred. When I shot the Kine I was doing about 18 - 24 damage per bullet while the bullets did 9 - 12 damage to the Kindred.

So yes, bullets are treated as Bashing for your character and only do 1/2 damage that they normally would to anyone else.

I've finished my first TFN playthrough today with an Osebo so here are my impression.

To begin with the style is superb. All the visual changes are well done and the new music fits in wonderfully. Changing music in clubs was another touch I liked.

I also like all the new game systems. I've already experience bloodloss in CE 1.5, but it does so much for immersion I can't stop praising it. You hunt people because you're a predator, not because you've been casting your spells and need to refill your mana.

I din't get much of a feel for the frenzy system, but my character was an enthusiastic dancer who also enjoyed regular meals so I wasn't really in the position to see it.

The masquerade system is cool. The first vioaltion was still just a free snack with no humanity loss, but the second violation was already annoying to deal with. I never went down to three, but if I extrapolate, it must be pretty damn harsh.

My character didn't invest much into Inspection, so I can't really comment much on that, but I can say I experienced a notable difference just raising it from 1 to 4.

When I began playing I was quite concerned about Haggle. The thign that worried me is that Haggle is a "timed" skill. Basically that means that it's not only important how high it is, but also when you increased it. A character who started with 6 Haggle is going to have a lot more money than a character who upgraded Haggle from 1 to 6 in Chinatown. On the contrary combat skills are not timed. If you have Melee 8 you are going to hit equally hard no matter when you increased your skill. However, while thinking it through I realised that all non-combat feats are more or less timed so now I'm okay with it.

I do like that money is more useful though. I burned a pretty penny on books and occult items and in the end I actually didn't have enough money to buy maximum ammo and bloodpacks. I had to satisfy myself with only 2 packs of elder vitae.

Research however seems problematic to me because it's no good on it's own. You need to also develop Haggle and maybe Inspection to really make it a viable investment. For example I developed my Haggle to 5 or 6 in Santa Monica and then to 8 in Downtown, but I still didn't have nearly enough money to take advantage of even the medium grade books. I could get two copies of each of the low grade books and two medium grade books. I could've bought more books if I hadn't spent 2k on occult items, but that's opportunity cost.

Another thing about Research are two legacy issues from vanilla. The first one are the Research values for books. For example the high book for Firearms is the only book that requires 10 Research, but increasing Intelligence from 4 to 5 actually costs 16 XP while increasing Firearms from 4 to 5 costs only 12 XP (and don't forget that you also had to pay at least $750 for the book). So impoving research from 9 to 10 is not worth it.

The other legacy issue is that there are only books for some levels of some abilities, so if you want to use Research you are forced to go down a certain path. This is undesirable, but unless you can add new items the only solution I could think of is very radical and I don't feel like going into detail about it at this point (this post is already long enough as is).

Overall my impressions are highly positive and I am looking forward to more playthroughs.

I'd like to add a few comments to Dragatus' posting:

For the music and visuals, that's a matter of taste. The quality is very good, I do not deny that. But (I think I have reprted tht somewhere else as well) I changed the music to something that is more of my taste before even starting, and I think the diner looks too modern and clean, especially when you take into account what Arthur has to say about it (No stuff changes since Nixon was in office).

Had no problems with frenzy either, but at least for one playthrough, I needed all the dancing spots to keep my humanity at least at 4 or 5.

The hunters, well, I only had one level 2 encounter at the last round. But luckily, I saw the guy with the crossbow crossing the street in time, so I could draw back, and then my Follower was able to sneak in obfuscated and silently take care of them.

Yep, playing without hagggle is a tough one. I have tried it with a Baali. So the xp bonus would make up for the books I couldn't afford.
And I agree that being limited to the existing books is a problem, because it forces you to develope the caracter in a certain way, if you don't want to lose some of the "bonus"xp from the books.
And the need of research 10 really makes the firearms book worthless.

Well, buying bloodpacks or ammo never was a problem for me. I prefer melee, and usually the only bloodpacks I ever need are the three to sell to copper, and perhaps one for Ash at the society.

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It's not that I actually needed all the bloodpacks, this was just the first time ever that I couldn't fill up everything to the max.

Well, what I did with the books is I basically eliminated Research from the game. I changed the books so that there is now 1 low grade book for every ability in the game and they all require 0 Research. This took some creativity with the titles.

And then I also eliminated Stamina, Apperance, and Wits. The stats are still technically there, they just don't appear in the menu (they have an empty name and their default and maxbuy values are 0) and they don't influence anything. The only exception is Stamina, which still improves soak like normal. You just can't increase it anymore.

I based Seduction on Charisma, Defense on Dexterity, and changed Lockpicking to Intelligence. With 6 attributes and 12 abilities now every attribute is neatly linked with two abilities. I've also renamed Academics into Rhetorics and moved it back to it's original spot at the end of the knowledges list.

I based bloodloss on Humanity (the closer you are to the Beast, the hungrier it gets), changed Blood Buff to directly give Bashing soak instead of Stamina, modified Auspex a little, adjusted Presence to penalize Dexterity isntead of Wits, and made Necrosis (Thanatosis 2) drain Dexterity instead of Stamina.

The only problem is that I heard some rumors about how Santa aranged an extended vacation in the northern parts of Tamriel for me so it will probably be a while before I'll return to LA and actually palytest the changes I've made.

These changes you made sound intersting. Might be worth trying out for myself, too. Did you change some of the titles and descriptions for the books? If so, could you post them to me, I'm still looking for some ideas so I can name all the courses in the email college separately.

Hm, Tamriel, I don't know. My first visit to oblivion could catch my attention for about a month. After everybody got so riled up about Skyrim, I reinstalled, but got annoyed as soon as my character reached the first trader...

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I haven't changed any book titles because then I'd havo to change the way the books look.

"The Cowboy's Guide to Cyberspace by Case"
"This detailed guide to online romance is at times so corny that the only thing stopping you from vomiting is that you haven't eaten anything ever since you've been embrace. But it still contains some useful pick-up lines. Raises your Subterfuge talent."

"Bad Monkey No Banana"
"A handbook for training pet monkeys, this book also covers psychological tricks that work on any primate. Raises your Rhetorics knowledge."

"Medieval Combat"
"After reading this book you will have the knowledge necessary to explain exactly how you intend to go medieval on someone's ass! Raises your Intimidation talent."

"GUNS, Who Should Have Them?"
"The controversy continues on the debate of the century: Who should be allowed to carry guns? Also contains tips on how to spot concealed firearms. This book raises your Investigation knowledge."



I estimate I've spent around 1000 hours playing Oblivion during the last 4 years and about 3x as much playing Morrowind between 2004 and 2008. So I'm pretty sure Skyrim will be able to hold my attention for a while.