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 Feats affected by...

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TheInvoker
Elder
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PostSubject: Feats affected by...   Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:54 pm

Affected....i think i never used this word...is it right??? i try to wxplain what i mean
First thing i saw is that Intelligence works only on research and costs 4 while scholarship works both on research (ok) and on persuasion (as in the original game) and costs 3
I think that you can move persuasion to intelligence......i must be intelligent to persuade someone,but it's not said that if i am a good student i can persuade Very Happy
To be honest i read this
Wits -> Defense
Intelligence -> Hacking, Research
Manipulation -> Haggle, Intimidate
But it seems to be in a previus version (not 1.5)
Manipulation is still the same but Hacking is on Wits like in the original game.
Since you came bach i suggest this:

Charisma=Intimidation
Manipulation=Haggle & Persuasion (since manipulation and persuasion is almost the same)
Intelligence=Research & Persuasion
Wits=Hacking & Defense

Scholarship=Only Research

This way every ability raise only thing.....schrolarship is too OP now in my opinion,even because Persuasion is more important than Intimidate and Seduction in the game.
Every time we want to raise Persuasion we must spend 4 but both Manipulation and Intelligence raise other Feats,so i think it's balanced.Sedutcion remain the most expensive since both subterfuge and appearance raise only that feat.
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mouser9169
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PostSubject: Re: Feats affected by...   Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:13 pm

1) You've got persuasion being affected by two abilities: manipulation and intelligence.

2) Tying persuasion and haggle together is a VERY strong combination since both of those abilities are very good in CE.
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TheInvoker
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PostSubject: Re: Feats affected by...   Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:17 pm

mouser9169 wrote:
1) You've got persuasion being affected by two abilities: manipulation and intelligence.

2) Tying persuasion and haggle together is a VERY strong combination since both of those abilities are very good in CE.

I rarely used haggle and finance....money are not so important in this game
And even now Persuasion is affected by abilities...and 1 (scholarship) costs 3 and give you research that's very important
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Dragatus
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PostSubject: Re: Feats affected by...   Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:18 am

Money is not important in unmodded Bloodlines. But in Camarilla Edition every $250 is worth 3 XP thanks to the e-mail college.

As for feats, I've already suggested before that Intellgience would count twice for Research and Scholarship would get renamed into Rthorics and stop contributing to Research. Or to put it a bit dfferently instead of Research = Intellgience + Scholarship you would get Research = 2 x Intelligence. But Childe of Malkav was sceptical about having an attribute count twice towards a feat.
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TheInvoker
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PostSubject: Re: Feats affected by...   Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:08 am

The only thing i know is that scholarship has nothing in common with persuasion.....so i wanted to change this but we have to find another ability that affects persuasion

Intelligence affecting hacking and wits only defense was good for me

Charisma = Persuasion
Manipulation = Intimidation Haggle
Appearance = OK

Perception = OK
Intelligence = Hacking Research
Wits = Defense

Brawl = OK
Replacing = Dodge with something that affects Persuasion since we have wits for Defense
Intimidation
Subterfuge

Computer = OK
Finance = OK
Investigation = OK
Scholarship = Research ONLY

In this way both Persuasion and Seduction have 2 single abilities whitle one of Intimidation (less useful then the other 2 mental feats) affects Haggle too.
And We wiil have something that concerns these feats in the same group

Nothing that costs 3 points must raise 2 Feats in my opinion.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Feats affected by...   Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:55 am

Hm, we had this very same discussion every now and again in the last two years. And everybody has their own ideas. I agree that scholarship as it is is overpowered, but I didn't have a good idea about changing it. And as I said before, everybody has their own ideas.
For hacking based on int, I don't think that is a good idea. Since in bloodlines hacking is only used for cracking passwords, I think that is based on intuition as much as on technical knowledge. And the technical knowledge is already covered by the computers ability. So I think, wits is more apropriate than int for hacking.

Sorry got to keep it short now, must leave for work...

- geek

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mouser9169
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PostSubject: Re: Feats affected by...   Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:01 pm

Keep in mind too that hacking, while it sounds nice and hitting ctrl-C and watching the letters spin around is cool, is utterly unnecessary after your first playthrough. Passwords don't change. I can think of a way that might work to randomize passwords, but it would be unwieldy at best. Still, it might be a nice thing to throw in (at least for the ones without dialog and sign clues).

Two guidelines for balancing: Don't balance a mechanical advantage against a roleplay one, or a combat advantage against a non-combat one.

But the same issue exists to an extent with lockpicking. One of my problems with Wesp's mod/patch is allowing bloodbuff in Elysium. Clearly not intended by the developers, and it only removes another painful choice from the game (of which their were supposed to be many) namely, do I put the points in to be able to open every lock, or just be content that there's a few (and one in particular) that I just won't be able to open? Now granted, that trunk could have had something better inside, like say the flamethrower... (come to think of it, I don't remember what it did have inside in vanilla)
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Feats affected by...   Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:47 am

About the trunk in Carson's apartment. In vanilla, there was an item for the poster quest. So nothing important as well.
And on another matter, I really don't see any logical reason why the whole map is Elysium. For the game, is should only be Mercurio's apartment.
That said, and since Carson's trunk is the only lock in Elysium I remember, for the game, it's just the same if I allow lockpicking with bloodbuff in Elysium, or if I change the map, so that Carson's apartment is considered Masquerade Area.
And there are some places where you can use Dominate/Dementation in Elysium dialogs. At least some of them are even vanilla. I know you can try to dominate Therese, and she has a spoken line about you being a fool, trying this.

The prince dominating you to do his bidding, or Gary using obfuscate in the warrens is another matter of course. It's their private territory, so they set up the Elysium rules there, and can choose to ignore them if they want to.
Of course it's a sign of weakness for the prince, that he even has to use dominate to get a mere flegling do his bidding...
But talk to any LA vampire with a bit of influence, and you'll see that he isn't really respected.

From a modder's point of view, turning Carsons apartment into Masquerade, and Mercurios to Elysium is easy. I can make the whole map safe area from the start, and only change to Elysium when Mercurio's door is opened. And then, if Carson's door is opened, it can change to safe again. So only the corridor will have both options, but since nothing happens there, that is of no consequence.

- geek

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