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 Gangrel should be feared

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blod vigtonn
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PostSubject: Gangrel should be feared   Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:59 pm

I been playing a Gangrel on your mod. So far i like some of the changes but there is one thing that i think is missing from the game. Fear ! What i mean is that Gangrels are vamps that embrace there beast/animal side right ? So i was thinking maybe you should make them a little more scary to people. Like make intimidation cost less for them. Also is it possible to give them a few options when talking to people. Like when Vandal threatens you that he will stop selling you blood. You could say something like ( Why would i want that blood when i got a tasty little thing looking back at me ! )

Gangrels do not have the charm of the Toreador , The madness of the Malkavian or the controlling of the Ventrue. What they do got is the is the primal fear that comes from the predator looking at a prey. Wink


P.S. i would like to say that so far i am really happy with the mod. You guys have done a great job.
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:16 pm

I agree that Gangrel should be feared but trying to implement this while staying true to the PnP game is the problem. Intimidation is about the only way I can think of to "scare" someone during dialogue and as of now Gangrel get a penalty to their social stats cost-wise. The only discipline I know of that can strike fear into another is "Presence", flooding the victim with fear type emotions and Gangrel don't have access to Presence, nor is there a Presence dialogue option.

How do you propose we do this and stay true to PnP?
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:50 pm

Here is some ideals.

1. Don't mess with the skill cost but just at the beginning add 1 or 2 points to intimidation. That way it does not change anything cost wise they just get points in it at the start.

2. Another idea is to have a discipline like Protean. Have a power called something like Glare of the beast, predator eyes or something like that. That makes your eyes scare people and raise your intimidation by 2.

3. Nothing else can you at least make us look more scary and beast like Twisted Evil I really don't like my dreadlocks in the game Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:02 pm

Gangrel are not vampires that actively embrace their beast. That's Sabbat and followers of certain Paths of Enlightenment. Your character follows Humanity, still a human - a fledgling vampire, barely undead.

Gangrel are affected by the curse of Caine by giving them a connection to the animal kingdom - as such they have perhaps more empathy with the inner beast - but certainly not the embracing of it.

There is nothing more innately scary from a Gangrel or a Toreador embraced from the same person, except for how the sire would treat them.

At most I would say perhaps start them with one lower humanity, to represent their kinship more with instinctual creatures than with people.
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:28 pm

Maybe i used the wrong word by embrace but they are more in tune with there animal side then some of the others. I agree with the lower humanity but i still think they should be able to scare people. I do not mean scary as in a horror show. What i mean is a more predator vs prey . A good example is when you see a wild animal. It may not be scary to you at first but if it shows it's teeth then there is a primal reaction to fear it. A Grangel being in touch with his animal side should be able to re create that to some level.
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:40 pm

But that's true of ANY vampire, it's not Gangrel specific in any way, in pnp the only way to emulate that is to abandon humanity completely and embrace a new philosophy - in doing that you no longer are able to emulate any human mannerisms, can't pretend to breathe, can't flush your skin, can't raise temperature, nothing. THEN it gives off an aura of a predator.

Showing your fangs in Bloodlines is pretty much a masquerade violation. If Vampires gave off a predator vibe constantly from the moment of embrace hunters and prey would have a much easier time of it!
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:45 pm

blod vigtonn wrote:
2. Another idea is to have a discipline like Protean. Have a power called something like Glare of the beast, predator eyes or something like that. That makes your eyes scare people and raise your intimidation by 2.

I think maybe some editing on the eyes animation when use Protean so it looks like cat's eyes (like Naruto when using the Fox's power if you guys know the anime) and removing the Masquerade Violation,but you would have to keep only level 1 Protean(Claws would be too much).Honestly, I think would be even fun but a guy walking on the street with such eyes, glowing red and sharp fangs have to be a Masquerade Violation by game terms unless A.I would understand that as some gothic vampire fan who likes to scare people(because the pale skin, dark fingernails and contact lens) afro
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:11 am

8people i know vamps showing there fangs are a masquerade violation. I was using the teeth thing as a example of wild animals using body language to put fear into it's prey. I can tell when a animal is dangerous just by the looks it gives. Look a the nature channel and look how a lion can put fear in to it's prey by a look. Animals do not talk through words but through body language . It would be only natural that would rub off on the Gangrel.

Herbst that was kind of thinking that you could replace the first Protean and take away the masquerade violation. You could take away any thing that would be a masquerade violation. I mean you do not need red eyes and claws to scare someone. I been to some parts of a big city where people scare you by looking at you with out red eyes and claws lol


Anyway it was just a idea. If it is not PnP then that is ok. Like i said if you can not do that then at least change the the char look a little. I am not really a dreadlocks fan and i would like a little facial hair . I mean being a loner and a anti-social vamp you most likely would not shave ever day Smile Plus it would make us look a little different then the other vamp modals.


Anyway thanks for hearing me out and keep up the good work on the mod Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:38 am

There are a couple of sites that do skins for Bloodlines and have instructions for installing them, I think one of the sites is called Vampire Haven, but I could be mistaken, Google Fu is strong cheers

The point is though, the only vamps that would have the feeling of predators are the ones completely gone of the reservation, your vamp is only a few nights old in the game, they may be the top of the food chain now - but there is also the awkwardness of "Hey, I'm a walking corpse... oh."

The animalistic instincts Gangrel tend to inherit would more likely brush off on the local people as anything from 'that guy seems a bit funny' to 'oh look, a furry!" depending on how they act, looking at how much violence that goes on around the game to average, common people, just because some gangbanger decides to take pot shots - the vampire isn't really going to stand out in a population that's learnt to keep eyes forward and don't draw attention anyway.

Only situation I can really think of is if under certain circumstances in pnp Strength can replace a social trait for the purpose of intimidation only. If the pnp weakness of clan Gangrel was possible to implement (would be a hell of a chore trying to unfortunately Sad) then it would be a very different experience playing a Gangrel, in pnp every time you frenzy you GAIN an animal trait - You know Beckett has the red eyes? Now you know why Wink - can be anything from tufted ears to a squirrel tail, to a patch of fur, feathers or scales, that you either have to hide or answer for to people you speak to. Now that guy that looks like an aggressive homeless man would be a bit more peturbing... with those rather stubby horns jutting from his forehead...

I suppose if it could be emulated if there was a 'counter' that kept track of how often you frenzied, and would have to keep track of your clan as well. So a gangrel with a higher frenzy count perhaps gets a bonus to intimidate but penalties to other social actions like seduction or persuasion. If that could be implemented it could be quite fun to see.
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:39 pm

Talking about Masquerade Violations, there's something kinda disturbing... we can't use our powers in public but it's acceptable one single girl/man be able to take the entire police department on the streets being shot by all sides confused


About making the char scarier, Zer0 made a few editing on the Male Gangrel's face so he has a more agressive expression on CE 1.2, tody about 3 am I was testing some things on gangrel, since Protean to Frenzy to see people reactions on street and well..lol..the only way I made even the cops run (who wouldn't even when I frenzied) was using protean lvl 5.

Now, without editing char's body, I guess maybe try add into Gangrel the same effect Nosferatu have when approach people but without the Masquerade Violation, but I read somewhere in the forum, I think they tried it already but couldn't remove the M.V., not sure, try check the older posts.
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:27 pm

just a small note: the animals that is showing its teeth, curling its lips, and flatening its hears, at you, the expression that you defined as fear inducing? he is also fearing you, probably more than you are fearing him. that expression is a sign that he is experiencing a mix of aggression and fear. animal behavior 101. an animal that is experiencing pure agression has a totaly bland look, with a totaly bland face he will simply come at you and bite your head off.
and have you ever seen a wolfish grin? dogs do it, all canids do it. they are showing their teeth, but there is nothing fear inducing about it, in fact, you can tell the animal is amused, in a playfull mood, ready to have fun.
you should probably revise your notions of what is fear inducing behavior in an animal.
and this makes sense in a discussion about gangrel, who are in touch with their animal side.
i would amit that an wolfish grin in a gangrel or any other vampire would be scary indeed, because either it would be an expression of pure aggression and you are about to have your head bitten off, or indeed he is merely playful but that could be worse, his notion of play might include a sadistic streak, and you are about to die anyway but in a slow and painfuly way while the vamp amuses itself slowly taking your life away from you.
but an animal showing you its teeth... not necessarily fear inducing.
what you should never, never, never, do, is stare an animal in the eye.
any animal in creation interprets staring in the eye as only a challenge, there is no such thing as a sweet intimate stare in the eye as animals do. if you want to induce an animal to attack you, then by all means stare him in the eyes.

and since this is a chat thread about gangrel...
i have been admonished about starting new topics indiscriminately, so i will have to hijack this topic to pose a question:
as much as they fascinate me, i have never played a gangrel in this game. so, in my profound ignorance, i am left constrained to do a very basic question: can gangrel inflict damage at a distance? perhaps high animalism? i think i remember it discussed in passing in unrelated topics, but since this is a topic about gangrel, i thought i should ask it here...
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:02 am

Of course they could. Animalism has Pestilence in the toolbox after all. Sweet trick: your enemies are eaten by a swarm of insects.
And let me applaud your knowlage on animal behaviour. I guess you work, or at the very least spend a lot of time with animals, especially canines. Well, I have spent nearly whole my life with dogs, mine and those of others, hence my love for the Gangrel. And understanding of animals, which can come in handy when you live in a city where owners tend to let their dogs loose. I become a little known in my neighbourhood for returning dogs who run away because of their owners stupidity (how high IQ does one need to close a gate after oneself? For some: higher). At least all the dogs in the neighbourhood like me.
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:37 pm

thank you, feral, for your information and your compliment.

i had been since my earlier childhood passionate about animal behavior, read a lot of books and magazines on the subject - i was a geeky kid - and pursued this passion to the point of completing a degree in biology with a focus on animal behavior, my endo of degree project and thesis were about animal behavior.
i didn't follow through with a carreer in it, but indeed ever since then i have had dogs, and i kept on reading on the subject, books and magazines, and watching documentarie on tv. and indeed it has been interesting to have dogs and a knowledge platform on animal behavior, to interpret them better but also to learn from experience with them. i had one dog and now i have a she dog and both have always been very friendly to people, and not too troublemakers with other dogs, so i do tend to walk them unleashed, but i always take a leash for walks in case of emergencies.

i decided to give it a try with gangrel. i had this idea that, because of protean, they were limited to brawl combat, but i since discovered that there is a history that gives huge bonus to ranged combat, and now knowing that one of their disciplines, the other one, animalism, inflicts damage at a distance i feel better. it was my impression that some combats do demand the ability to inflict damage at a distance, it's nice to know gangrel can do that.

i had a question but i think it was adressed earlier in this chat thread, so, gangrel cannot raise social atributes beyond a certain level, charisma maniulation and appearance, leaving them limited, notably in dialogue options dependent on those atributes? that appears to me a definite handicap... i don't remember seeing it mentioned on the description of the clan provided in the character creation sheet... will have to recheck this chat thread.

but, on the topic of this thread, i do remember that there is a history - though i forget which - that does indeed grant a bonus on Intimidation. if you want to play a gangrel that gives you the notion that gangrel should be feared, you could try to play a gangrel with that history.
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:40 pm

just had my question answered, thanks zer0morph, gangrel get penalties Cost-Wise to social attributes. not outright stat level limitations.
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:27 pm

Sorry I didn't get to your post in time, but ya Gangrel (I believe in CE 1.2 and forward) received penalties to raising their social attributes, but doesn't outright deny them.
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:55 pm

I would have liked Gangrel, except for two major (for me) issues.

1) I did not like the combat maneuvers used by the Gangrel (specifically, when using Protean). The timing on them was very different than those used by the other clans. During combat with say, a Brujah, one fast click of the mouse resulted in one punch or swing with a weapon. Slightly longer, and it's two punches/swings. Hold it down, and it's three swings in quick succession, one/two/three. Very easy to get the timing down, and keep your opponent from attacking you. If you turn quickly, you can even hit multiple opponents with the same one/two/three swing combo. I got very good at this, as I'm sure others did also.

But with a Gangrel, the timing is different. It goes from one slash with the claws, to two slashes, but if you hold it down it goes into that stupid 'twirl and slash' maneuver, which throws off the timing and gives everyone and their cousin time to get their licks in. It's a good thing Gangrel have Fortitude, because I have never taken so much damage as I did when I played a Gangrel. Especially against those three-body 'centaur' things in the sewers, which can attack so fast sometimes that you barely have time to hit back. I'm clicking furiously, trying to get a hit in, and those fugly centaur schlachta keep hitting me in the middle of that little whirling dervish maneuver, and not letting me do any damage. Pissed me off to no end. Evil or Very Mad

2) The second thing I don't like about Gangrel is that level 5 Protean warform. Could Troika make it look any more dorky than that 'man-bat' form? Not without going all LooneyTunes, they couldn't. I absolutely refused to raise my Protean to a five, because I didn't want to run around looking like 'bat-boy'. I don't care how badass Protean 5 makes me.

Don't mean to offend any Gangrel fans, like Feral. I normally like Gangrel in PnP. But in Bloodlines, they suck... and not in a good 'my-this-blood-is-tasty!' kind of way. (We won't even go into the silly Rastafarian-wannabe haircut on the male Gangrel.) Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:08 am

remianing on topic, could someone confirm which is the History of Gangrel that gives bonus to Intimidation?

and with a question following PGM's post...

can you not assign hotkeys and activate at will either Protean level 1 or level 2 or etc.? are you always bound to activate the last level up? and in case the latter, do the abilities stack up? because, say, i might want to use Protean level 1 to either see foes accross obstacles with infrared vision, in the manner of Auspex, or even use it to help me hack a computer, with a +1 to wits; but, say, i might at first only want to use Protean Level 1 to see a for accross an obstacle, but only then shift to a warform to engage him.
and even though to my knowledge Protean level 2 to 5 are only ever more powerful warforms only suited for combat (still not very experienced with it), each has it's own peculiarities, i mean there are weaker foes that do not necessarily require more powerful warforms even when you have already leveled up to them.
and anyway each level of protean has a different name, with results that are very different, should that not mean the ability to assign different hotkeys and then activate at will to each level?

to me protean is different from other "passive" disciplines, like auspex or celerity, when you get the same only more so, so indeed when you activate it you only care that it activates the latest level up, the most powerful level you are able of.

this might be a suggestion as well, for a later upgrade.
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:59 am

i had that problem to, PGM. You know how to solve it?

Press the mouse to attack once
Press the mouse to attack twice
stop, wait till your gangrel is back at his initial position
Press the mouse to attack once
Press the mouse to attack twice
Repeat

cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:45 am

ThePhilosopher wrote:
i had that problem to, PGM. You know how to solve it?

Press the mouse to attack once
Press the mouse to attack twice
stop, wait till your gangrel is back at his initial position
Press the mouse to attack once
Press the mouse to attack twice
Repeat

cheers

Yeah I am doing that too, and if I remember correctly I figured out a trick how to chain all 3 strikes:Your opponent must be near wall, with his back turned to wall and you must be in front of him.When you strike him 2 times he will be disoriented and open for 3rd strike which will knock him out.I haven't played recently with Gangrel, but I am pretty sure it is doable ...
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:48 am

Not offended at all, PGM. Gangrel in Bloodlines isn't as sweet as in PnP, unfortunately.

PGM1961 wrote:
I would have liked Gangrel, except for two major (for me) issues.

Especially against those three-body 'centaur' things in the sewers, which can attack so fast sometimes that you barely have time to hit back. I'm clicking furiously, trying to get a hit in, and those fugly centaur schlachta keep hitting me in the middle of that little whirling dervish maneuver, and not letting me do any damage. Pissed me off to no end. Evil or Very Mad

Pestilence keeps them in place for a while. You could use that time to hit. Song of serenity might also help.

PGM1961 wrote:

2) The second thing I don't like about Gangrel is that level 5 Protean warform. Could Troika make it look any more dorky than that 'man-bat' form? Not without going all LooneyTunes, they couldn't. I absolutely refused to raise my Protean to a five, because I didn't want to run around looking like 'bat-boy'. I don't care how badass Protean 5 makes me.

Don't mean to offend any Gangrel fans, like Feral. I normally like Gangrel in PnP. But in Bloodlines, they suck... and not in a good 'my-this-blood-is-tasty!' kind of way. (We won't even go into the silly Rastafarian-wannabe haircut on the male Gangrel.) Smile
Warform was either a bad joke by Troika or they tried to do something really scary and f*cked it up beyond belif...
Swithing into a wolf like in Redemption would be much better. Either that or Crinos form of the werewolf.

@Velvet:Yes, they do stack. But as far as I know you can't assaign hotkeys to levels of Protean. Sucks for me too...
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:31 pm

srle wrote:
ThePhilosopher wrote:
i had that problem to, PGM. You know how to solve it?

Press the mouse to attack once
Press the mouse to attack twice
stop, wait till your gangrel is back at his initial position
Press the mouse to attack once
Press the mouse to attack twice
Repeat

cheers

Yeah I am doing that too, and if I remember correctly I figured out a trick how to chain all 3 strikes:Your opponent must be near wall, with his back turned to wall and you must be in front of him.When you strike him 2 times he will be disoriented and open for 3rd strike which will knock him out.I haven't played recently with Gangrel, but I am pretty sure it is doable ...
Twisted Evil

Yah these are great if you're only facing one opponent. But if you're fighting off six sword-wielding Kuei-jin flunkies, they don't give you time to pause after two attacks... or to concentrate on one opponent. That is when the Gangrel combat tactics really suck.

By the time I finished with the Gangrel, my timing was more effective; but the normal combat maneuvers for every other clan are still better. I can see where Troika tried to get creative with the Gangrel's fighting style, but it's a handicap.

Song of Serenity did help vs. the nasty sewer monsters I mentioned. Never got high enough for Pestilence.
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:58 am

Quote :
@Velvet:Yes, they do stack. But as far as I know you can't assaign hotkeys to levels of Protean. Sucks for me too...

Thanks, Feral.
well, it is sort of a relief that they do stack.
but it is a depressive notion that, if i get protean level 5, i will have to change into this... monstruous, war form, to get a +1 bonus to Wits to be able to hack that computer that is proving resistant to my attempts...
i wish zer0morph or Childe of Malkav peeped in on this topic, to see if they could do something about this in one of their upgrades... well, not zer0morph because he is now engaged with non-canonical clans...
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:53 am

@PGM Pestilence rules the day. It could immobilize and damage multiple targets a a time. Imagine 4 swords wielding Ming Xiao's servants wriggling, hopelles, and you could attack them without retaliation. Sweet. Doesn't work that well against szlachta, unfortunately.

@Velvet Clans Zer0 works on are canonical in PnP. Their members could claim to be Camarilla. Maybe not the Baali, at least openly, but they could pose as Tremere, and acording to canon often do so.

Hey, Zer0, maybe few funny lines with Strauss mistaking you for a Tremere when you play Baali?
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:06 pm

Velvet wrote:
i wish zer0morph or Childe of Malkav peeped in on this topic, to see if they could do something about this in one of their upgrades...

I'm here to peep...

Velvet wrote:
but it is a depressive notion that, if i get protean level 5, i will have to change into this... monstruous, war form, to get a +1 bonus to Wits to be able to hack that computer that is proving resistant to my attempts...

You know what Velvet? You are absolutely 100% correct on this point. I completely agree with you on this, it's stupid to think

"Hmmm, I can't hack into this computer so you know what? I'll turn into this beastily war machine.... RAWRRR!! Ahhh that's better, now that I'm smarter in the beastial form I can easily crack into this machine... Just let me use my talons here for a second, *click click SMACK!* Ok that's better... Boy I'm glad I can turn into a killing machine hacker beast or I'd be screwed."

Wow, hey retarded is that?!?! Yes I agree with you and though I'm no longer in the Protean business, I can't help you. But if I were you, I would quietly PM Malkav and ask if he can change the +1 Wits to +1 Dodge instead, which is what I think it should be.
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PostSubject: Re: Gangrel should be feared   Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:10 pm

Feral wrote:
Hey, Zer0, maybe few funny lines with Strauss mistaking you for a Tremere when you play Baali?

Wow it's funny you mention that. I've been reading up alot on the Baali lately and I didn't know this but all but the most powerful Tremere can't tell a difference between Baali blood and Tremere blood. In fact most of the time it requires a Thaumaturgy of 6 or higher to detect that a Baali is NOT Tremere, and thus many Baali who are looking to fit into the Camarilla to corrupt them from within will Masquerade themselves as Tremere, and nobody is the wiser.

I took this idea to heart and have been brainstorming an idea that if the Baali so chooses, maybe we should give him the option (with a high Persuasion of course) the "chance" to attempt to Masquerade himself as a Tremere to gain access to the chantry haven, and pose as a Tremere student.

Does anyone else like this idea?
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Gangrel should be feared
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