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 Solving stuff for the Salubri

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temporae
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PostSubject: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:49 pm

After reading up extensively on the Salubri clan, I have to say I would love a questline where the PC can actually reverse the propaganda of the Tremere and bring the 'truth' to light about what happened with Tremere and Saulot, assuming it isn't already known.

Basically, something along the lines of "Redemption for a Bloodline". How epic would that be? Imagine confronting Strauss and possibly his boss over what their clan did centuries ago, and having to duke it out against dozen(s) of Tremere apprentices/etc. I dunno, that's just an idea, but the whole notion of how Salubri have been hunted to extinction because of rumors another (fraudulent) clan spread, but then not have any way to correct it or combat it - just seems like BS.

Shouldn't the Salubri be able to fight back, particularly against the treasonous Tremere? Man, those would awesome battles Sad


Heck, if worst came to worst, consider that the PC might have to find a way to fight Saulot or reveal his trickery while having to avoid a pretty final death at his hands? xD

So many ideas, alas.


Anyone have similar thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:09 am

Unless if someone pretty much did a "Clan Quest Mod: The Final Nights Edition", I dont think that's possible. I would love the idea of confronting Tremere (The Antedeluvian), but he pretty much got kicked out of his body by Saulot, as how much I know of.

It would be a good idea if Saulot in Tremere's body had been able to masquerade as him and through the blood bonds Tremere created, whenever any of his Childer had been found, he would force the Tremere through blood bond and Dominate to forget about them so they wouldnt suffer. Maybe if you broke the Masquerade through usage of Obeah (Like in the Plague for the Angels Quest when you can heal Tin Can Bill and Hannah), and you agreed to help Strauss in solving it, when you talk to him again, he notes that the disease they had was, by all means, an uncurable virus. He then states that using Obeah is the only way to heal all disease.

He then goes on to apologize and states that he must kill the Salubri PC to uphold the Tremere Masquerade, but as he's about to attack, he gets a sigil around his head like he was getting dominated. Then he would go on to the normal dialogue that would happen if you solved the quest for him.

When you get back to your haven, a new email is waiting for you stating "We need to talk", and its from "A friend". The friend wants to talk with you at the back alley near Hallobrook Hotel and cut off from Brother Kanker's sanctuary. This person would reveal himself as Saulot, stating that you have to act more discreet, and give a mission for you to do (Not to mention, unlike almost every other vampire in the game, he has an actual reason to have his hands tied, He's masquerading as Tremere!)

This mission would involving showing that Baali masquerade as Tremere, and after gaining proof and showing it to Strauss, he would then send word to all chantries to pick out the Baali from the Tremere, and you can give this info to the Anarchs as well.

Then, when you meet Saulot again, but this time inside your living quarters, he states that he is proud to have you as his childer. He then proceeds to teach you Valeren, and up to Valeren 2, and he can give you an artifact called "Malkav's Third Eye" in which gives greater duration to Obeah and Valeren.

But just my thoughts on the matter. Sadly enough, Tremere propaganda holds some truth to it. On Obeah 5, "Unburdening the Beastial Soul", takes the soul out of the body of someone else while the Salubri doing it cleans it.
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:51 am

I have to say, I do like these ideas. My only question would be, wouldn't it be viewed as slightly suspicious if Tremere decided to just leave Vienna? I would imagine that it has happened at some point, but if he randomly chose to take a trip to Los Angeles? I don't know. Save for there being a possible stand in, which makes it a bit more possible.

Also, if there is a only a small difference between the Baali and Tremere blood, then could the same be said for the Salubri? If this is the case, then wouldn't Andrei say the same thing about a Baali or Salubri PC, that he says to a Tremere?

As for the Salubri, I'm just really wishing persuade lines could be added, since in most cases, the person you heal isn't really focusing on what your doing, nor what you are. Such as with Heather, who doesn't say or do anything about a Nosferatu PC, until she gets healed by the blood. I could see this technically being a problem, in that most of these cases might not have lines, but even a simple "Nevermind what I did. Just be thankful you feel better. " would work. In most of the areas you heal someone, it isn't in a public place(or at least not where a lot of people are around). So wouldn't the only person that sees you be the one that you help?
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:05 pm

Sally, why would an antedeluvian be interested in a random fledgeling that got embraced half a world away? And there are those who think that Saulot himself betrayed his clan and tricked Tremere into diablerizing him. The difference in generation would let Saulot come out on top and the Tremere make more useful pawns than the Salubri. There is of course no proof, but it's still worth a thought.

temporae wrote:
After reading up extensively on the Salubri clan, I have to say I would love a questline where the PC can actually reverse the propaganda of the Tremere and bring the 'truth' to light about what happened with Tremere and Saulot, assuming it isn't already known.

I think in modern nights most kindred don't even know what a Salubri is. The ones that do know however, probably believe the propaganda. And the funny thing is that while the propaganda is awfully convenient for the Tremere, there may actually be a grain of truth in it. Obeah 5 might be intended to be used on a willing subject to improve their path rating, but it can also be used to remove someone's soul from their body by force.

Quote :

Shouldn't the Salubri be able to fight back, particularly against the treasonous Tremere? Man, those would awesome battles Sad

They tried. Back when there were a lot more Salubri and a lot less Tremere. And the Tremere won. Any Salubri trying to fight back in these final nights would just be asking for a beautiful sunrise.
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:41 pm

Dragatus wrote:
Sally, why would an antedeluvian be interested in a random fledgeling that got embraced half a world away? And there are those who think that Saulot himself betrayed his clan and tricked Tremere into diablerizing him. The difference in generation would let Saulot come out on top and the Tremere make more useful pawns than the Salubri. There is of course no proof, but it's still worth a thought.
= I got that part too, which is why in the latter part of my post I refer to figuring out some way to fight Saulot, if in fact treachery was proven (assuming it could be from a plot-device standpoint for the quest/game).

temporae wrote:
After reading up extensively on the Salubri clan, I have to say I would love a questline where the PC can actually reverse the propaganda of the Tremere and bring the 'truth' to light about what happened with Tremere and Saulot, assuming it isn't already known.

I think in modern nights most kindred don't even know what a Salubri is. The ones that do know however, probably believe the propaganda. And the funny thing is that while the propaganda is awfully convenient for the Tremere, there may actually be a grain of truth in it. Obeah 5 might be intended to be used on a willing subject to improve their path rating, but it can also be used to remove someone's soul from their body by force.
= The most convincing lie is the one backed by at least a grain of truth. In the history of WoD that's been laid out thus far, I see Salubri as having gotten the shortest end of the stick possible (heck, with their Ante getting diablerized, there can't be much worse stuff). I'd love having to fight an uphill battle to revive what the clan was founded for: healing and control over the Beast amongst Kindred.

Quote :

Shouldn't the Salubri be able to fight back, particularly against the treasonous Tremere? Man, those would awesome battles Sad

They tried. Back when there were a lot more Salubri and a lot less Tremere. And the Tremere won. Any Salubri trying to fight back in these final nights would just be asking for a beautiful sunrise.
= Tremere won? If you consider being able to stumble upon a not-so-well-guarded tomb of an ancient and then consuming it while it slept as victory, then sure. There is really only one way to consider the Tremere: as usurpers, nothing more or less (especially considering what they did chasing after Salubri methuselahs) and notorious practicing of diablerie (which by definition = usurping power, taking it without right or claim). Couple that with a smear campaign against an originally pacifist clan, and you have the perfect recipe for inventing conflict against an unsuspecting enemy.
Also, as for beautiful sunrises, haven't you heard? It's the best way to go, especially if you happen to be undead (a la Godric taking his last breath in 'True Blood'). There's nothing more fitting or poetic.

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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:08 pm

As a rule of a thumb, if I'm not dead and the other guy is dead, then I won. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:00 pm

Dragatus wrote:
As a rule of a thumb, if I'm not dead and the other guy is dead, then I won. Wink

And if you were undead and the other bastard's soul lived within your body, waging a nightly, internal civil war of wills in which all your Disciplines, up to and not by any means limited to Thaumaturgy, were useless?
Not to mention said internal strife turning your body into giant larva...?
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:14 pm

Dragatus wrote:
Sally, why would an antedeluvian be interested in a random fledgeling that got embraced half a world away? And there are those who think that Saulot himself betrayed his clan and tricked Tremere into diablerizing him. The difference in generation would let Saulot come out on top and the Tremere make more useful pawns than the Salubri. There is of course no proof, but it's still worth a thought.

Well, maybe he holds interest in his cla-*pimpslapped*
Well, who really knows. Saulot was said to be in torpor, and you have to admit, the Tremere DID kind of cross the line on their studies into vampirism by diablarizing him.
Anyways, the Tremere did practically commit genocide against the Salubri. Even if Saulot did betray his clan, he does hate the Baali. So in this quest, if he is evil, not only does he remove the Baali from chantries, but also make the Tremere seem more incompentent and allow him for greater control.
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:55 pm

Dragatus wrote:
As a rule of a thumb, if I'm not dead and the other guy is dead, then I won. Wink

haha, quite true! But, what point is there to unlife if you end up being just as scared of (final) death as before when you were alive? xD

Besides, a moment like that where you get to go out in a blaze of self-styled glory- just too awesome to pass up, least for suckers like myself Laughing


SaulottheGentle wrote:

Well, maybe he holds interest in his cla-*pimpslapped*
Well, who really knows. Saulot was said to be in torpor, and you have to admit, the Tremere DID kind of cross the line on their studies into vampirism by diablarizing him.
Anyways, the Tremere did practically commit genocide against the Salubri. Even if Saulot did betray his clan, he does hate the Baali. So in this quest, if he is evil, not only does he remove the Baali from chantries, but also make the Tremere seem more incompentent and allow him for greater control.

There's no "kind of" cross the line...they definitely did, desperate usurping bastards that they were/are Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:08 pm

temporae wrote:
...There's no "kind of" cross the line...they definitely did, desperate usurping bastards that they were/are Evil or Very Mad
Hm, ask some random Tzimisce or LaSombra, and they will tell you that diablerizing someone is a quite ordinary action...

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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:35 pm

True, but those guys are part of the Sabbat, which I would probably describe as the Kindred world's number one terrorist organization lol, so why would they care what they do if it gets them more power?

Kinda like an anarchist movement, but not like the anarchs (doh!).

Did I get it right based on lore? monkey
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:29 am

While I do like the Salubri, its just sad that they're near extinction. But now that I think about it, if anyone were to give a quest for the Salubri, it would be the Kuei-Jin. Think about it.

-Saulot learned much and possibly gained his third eye from them (Or Malkav gave it to him, different versions of the story).
-Obeah is based on healing physical, mental and spiritual illness. And it can manipulate souls, in which would benefit the Kuei-Jin (seeing as they're escapees from Hell).
-Even though most kindred dont get along with other supernaturals, The Gangrel clan get along the best with Werewolves, so why cant the Salubri get along the best with the Kuei-Jin?

Just a thought that popped into my head.

And now that I think about it, like how the one person made a thread about an alternate ending with Lacriox (I can't find the thread for whatever reason), why can't the Salubri have a special ending with the Kuei-Jin, where instead of them strapping him/her to the Sarcophagus to float to the bottom of the ocean, why can't they instead take him/her in, as they've gotten along well in the past?
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:19 am

temporae wrote:
True, but those guys are part of the Sabbat, which I would probably describe as the Kindred world's number one terrorist organization lol, so why would they care what they do if it gets them more power?

Kinda like an anarchist movement, but not like the anarchs (doh!).

Did I get it right based on lore? monkey
Untrue. The Diablerie amongst the Lasombra and the Tzimisce is not because the majority is part of the Sabbat. It is part of the mentality many Sires choose for their Kindred, especially amongst the Lasombra. As a clan, the Lasombra are very ambitious and power hungry, so for them Diablerie is just another tool at their disposal. In fact, Les Amie Noir, the Lasombra's ruling body if I remember correctly, can give permissions for Diablerie, providing the one who will be drained has commited some sort of crime or is otherwise unworthy or remaining 'alive'.
The Tzimisce on the other hand are more individualistic. They're not really organized as a clan, and any Diablerie amongst them is simply for their own reasons.

And one more thing. While many Camarilla lackys would have you believe that the Sabbat are little more than murderous animals, they are in reality a lot more. They have a goal they strive for and believe in whole heartedly. Not all of them may be aware of this goal because of poor tutoring, but the overlapping organization will always keep this in mind.
The goal of the Sabbat is to eliminate all the Antideluvians and greatest Elders, either through Diablerie or plain murder. This is to free all Kindred from their control. They believe that all Kindred not in the Sabbat are being controlled by these ancients through indirect blood bonds. It's why they have the Vaulderie ritual, which binds all of the Sabbat together through a weak blood bond, and makes them immume to true, full bonds.
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:56 am

Hmm, thanks for clearing that up for me. I had a feeling my depiction of the Sabbat was fairly biased based on what I'd read and seen thus far.

Still, I'd disagree on principle with most of their sects, with the one (obvious, based on my previous comments) exception being the Furies Razz

When I see the Sabbat in action, all I can really envision is a handful of really really old elders at the top, who purposefully create these pyramids of sired childer (much like the Cammies) in order to cause chaos and confusion in their enemies' ranks, if not everyone else too (kine included). Sounds like the Tremere of the Camarilla, doesn't it? Well, I have to admit that most hugely disparate entities are often more alike than different, especially ones that hate each other to vicious degrees (kinda like political governments versus all kinds of anarchist/terrorist/separatist groups - all fighting for control of land/resources, each with an agenda to counterbalance those of their opposites). 'Right' and 'wrong' get so blurry there, I stopped trying to see it in those colors. Instead, I look for what each side benefits from. Sabbat seem to benefit most from chaos, the Camarilla from order. Not really a tough pick in the long run, wouldn't you say?

Lol, so off topic bounce
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:15 pm

temporae wrote:
Lol, so off topic bounce

Actually around here people get disappointed if a topic doesn't go afk off topic. Very Happy

edit: Wasn't thinking clearly when I posted that.


Last edited by Dragatus on Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:53 pm

afk Question

All fucking kitchen? A few knots (slow ship)?

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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:22 pm

Childe of Malkav wrote:
afk Question

All fucking kitchen? A few knots (slow ship)?

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Err, yeah, sure? cyclops



(also known as 'away from keyboard'..ahem)


So what kind of a power is Valeran? It reminds me of the stuff the hunters use (holy light-type stuff). Any easy ways to implement it with the VtMB engine?
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:44 am

Actually the Obeah in TFN is more like Valeren than healer Obeah. And I meant off topic not afk. Wasn't thinking straight when I posted that.
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:40 am

temporae wrote:
Childe of Malkav wrote:
afk Question

All fucking kitchen? A few knots (slow ship)?

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Err, yeah, sure? cyclops



(also known as 'away from keyboard'..ahem)

...
Excuse me for being a dinosaur... Laughing
I've been on web-torpor since the early 90s, and only awakened for bloodlines.

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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:57 am

@Childe of Malkav: haha, I'm sure! How does it feel to be up about digitally-about these days? Any different from pre-90's? Razz

Dragatus wrote:
Actually the Obeah in TFN is more like Valeren than healer Obeah. And I meant off topic not afk. Wasn't thinking straight when I posted that.

Hmm, probably. But what I don't get is the first two levels of Obeah- to what are they supposed to relate to? They seem neither a Healer or Valeran type.
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:07 am

temporae wrote:
@Childe of Malkav: haha, I'm sure! How does it feel to be up about digitally-about these days? Any different from pre-90's? Razz

Dragatus wrote:
Actually the Obeah in TFN is more like Valeren than healer Obeah. And I meant off topic not afk. Wasn't thinking straight when I posted that.

Hmm, probably. But what I don't get is the first two levels of Obeah- to what are they supposed to relate to? They seem neither a Healer or Valeran type.

*Valeren

And about Obeah, well, some of the levels are in it.

Sense Vitality is Obeah's first level.
I don't believe that Warding the Beast is from either Obeah or Valeren, but it sounds closer to Obeah.
Renewed Vigor, I believe is a level 6 Obeah discipline.
Oddly enough, Tier 4 of Obeah in FN, Anesthetic Touch, is actually Level 2 of Obeah. And it usually blocks pain and/or sends the target to sleep.
Wrath of Heaven isn't in Valeren or Obeah from what I saw of the disciplines. But it sounds closer to Valeren.

Valeren is more or less intended towards violence or death in general.
Valeren's Sense Death is like Obeah's Sense Vitality, but it shows the life span as a whole.
Valeren's Morphean Blow is like Obeah's Anesthetic Touch, except instead of making them fall asleep, they get knocked out.
But thats where the similarities end. Afterwards, Valeren causes searing pain telekenetically or through a poke, creating armor like Fortitude, or killing someone who wishes to die.
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:06 pm

Putting an enemy to sleep would be a nice replacement for an otherwise utterly useless (and redundant) Frenzy check +2 modifier. ><
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:01 pm

I know Zer0 had preferred to do something more diversified with Obeah/Valeren. But he had to use a passive discipline due to the game limitations.

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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:05 pm

Ugh, that old song again with "game limitations". Sad

Is there no way to re-write them? Assuming knowledge of its core programming of Python?
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PostSubject: Re: Solving stuff for the Salubri   Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:17 pm

I'm guessing you'd need the source code of the game engine and a skilled programer for that. and while you might be able to find a skilled programmer, getting the source code is probably about as likely as seeing a Tzimisce in the Camarilla.
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