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 Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?

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SaulottheGentle
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:32 pm

Welcome to the board, margifish.

And awesome theory on Jeanette being the original. Very Happy

And as for the Voerman sisters...

Well, there have been really good takes on this. Therese being the original due to her own allusion to it in dialogue, her attitude with Jeanette and the portraits she makes.

Then there's Jeanette, with her having the mismatched eyes (is it natural to see Malkavians with those?), and her perception into the future (outright telling the PC that s/he's a fledgling and if s/he's frightened, being in a new world where they barely adjusted to).

While I can't exactly guess who is the real one, let's just look at their words and the WoD in general.

Therese claims she's a "good girl...always did what she was told". If she's such a good girl, then why does she engage in subterfuge of the Camarilla, try to off Bertram, threaten Jeanette, send you to a diner with hired thugs, and then spill her guts as if she's completely confident she's going to be the winning king in this twisted game of chess, and kill you both? And if you acted negatively towards her, she even states herself to be higher than you. Clearly not a good person.

Jeanette on the other hand, she does flirt with you, freely tells you of an easy steal (with no humanity loss, since when you point it out, she justifies it), and while she DID use you, she fesses up to it in the end and tells you everything. She and the PC remain "friends with benefits", so to speak.

Another thing to look at is how insanity is like in the WoD, and how it works on people. Or to better word it, I'll call it "Erasmus's Definition", meaning that everyone is insane, but each has their own degree. If someone was insane, and they knew it, then they would more or less be a "good guy". If someone else was insane and they are either unaware of it or completely deny that they are then they are, more or less, a "bad guy".

Now let's apply this to Therese and Jeanette respectively. Therese uses you without telling the extent of what ghosts can do, has delusions of entitlement, openly lies about the diner, thinking she could off you there. But when she holds you and Jeanette at gunpoint, thinking she could end the two of you and Jeanette tells about how father died, she starts breaking, as if she was the one who really did it.
And overall, she sees herself as a Ventrue, meaning class, distinction, nobless-oblige, and sanity. And yet the best she can do is send a few thugs with guns, screams at you over a ruined event (the worst a Ventrue would do would be thinning lips and a cold stare, IIRC), implyingly threatens you right when you ask if she's Therese, and worst of all she truly believes she's all of those things. She is a "dark daughter".

As for Jeanette. She pops up and flirtatiously and delightfully creepily introduces herself, knows she's mad and is generally nice ("On the inside, we're ALL dead meat kitten~"), and while she does use you, she trys to let you know as much as she possibly can without disclosing too much because 1. Backstabbing is usually rewarded with your head on a pike in the Jyhad, and 2. No one likes to be used, but at the least in the portrait's scenario, she tells you to take the box of cash for your own enjoyment, and explains the justification for taking it, with you loosing no humanity. She does cause alot of trouble for her sister, Therese being the 'older' one and having delusions of entitlement.

However, put yourself in her shoes. Being told what to do and what not to do, having little to no freedom, and when in the gun point conversation, Jeanette outright accuses her of abuse. This can be heavily seen in their muffled fight that Therese attacks her self-esteem, and even more when she states she sired Jeanette to keep them together and blames her for forgetting that, as if trying to guilt trip her into believing she only kept her around because she "loved" her, in the only way she knew how, by controlling her.
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:34 pm

Now, with all of the elaboration out of the way, here is my new opinion on the Tourette case. Let it be noted that I formed mine after looking at what everyone's opinions, and forming my own after crossing out what I believed to either be irrelevant or inconsistent. Let me also say that I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone, and the reason I'm noting all of this now is because I don't want to start any flame wars or get yelled at.

What my opinion is that Jeanette is the real personality.
Being molested, told she couldn't do anything other than sit inside all day would really wear down at a person's self-esteem and sanity. However, in doing that, her emotional growth would be stunted. Meaning that she could be 100 years old and yet never feel any older than a child would. She didn't grow up, she was barred from it.

She probably did have a real sister called Therese who was indeed the good girl to daddy. And perhaps Therese was indeed the one to kill daddy, and Jeanette, locked away in an asylum for witnessing it, got embraced for it. Perhaps Jeanette believed that she was never good enough, and with her own disposition like that, her feelings of worthlessness and hate balled up, became a pounding voice in her head, which eventually culminated into making Therese's personality, warped by her own bitterness and hatred of her. However, this also made Jeanette loose her own hatred of herself in her own personality, allowing her to let herself out more rather than be caged up any longer. This explains why she's the way she is. She's not acting childish, she is a child who wasn't allowed to grow up, enjoying herself and not giving two shits on "grown up" matters.

It also fits in with the WoD version of Insanity, where it's supposed to be played at to be a tragedy rather than a mood lightener. In Jeanette's case, it formed into what she despised most. A person who played with her guilt, told her all the things about herself she didn't want to hear, abused her emotions. And it took the form of the person who had what she didn't. Or did. Hard to tell with the WoD and all.
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:55 pm

Man, you got me thinking on how to treat such a case.
Good job.
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:05 pm

It's also possible that Jeanette as the original snapped, killed her father, and if there ever *was* a real sister named Therese, maybe she accidentally killed her too at the same time she killed their father. If the sister had been her only friend during a childhood of abuse, that guilt could've provided another reason for the second personality to develop (if she didn't have DID pre-embrace but developed it as her derangement)
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:42 pm

I don't think there's any evidence to support the idea that there were originally two sisters.  Show me a case history of Disassociative Identity Disorder (the name they're using now) that includes a personality based on a real person.  (Not counting the core personality.)  That's usually a different kind of delusion.

Some people cite the painting in the upstairs room at Asylum as 'proof' that there were two sisters, but that doesn't prove anything.  I could paint a picture of myself in a Batman costume*, but it doesn't make me a superhero.  *(It would be a stick figure with a cowl and cape, because I can't draw or paint; but that's another issue.)  As I stated previously, I think the painting was done by one of the sisters, to support their delusion of being two separate beings.  For one thing, who paints a family portrait with bare/dead trees in the background?  I think it's symbolic, to show that daddy is dead now too.

Using Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation for two Voerman sisters in one body is her Malkavian blood.  The possible (former) existence of a second sister is pure speculation.
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:03 am

Feral wrote:
Man, you got me thinking on how to treat such a case.
Good job.

*grins happily and brushes back bangs, bishie style, revealing third eye*
Any Unicorn who doesn't try to understand the and empathize with all aspects of an individual's tormented soul isn't worth their blood.

margifish wrote:
It's also possible that Jeanette as the original snapped, killed her father, and if there ever *was* a real sister named Therese, maybe she accidentally killed her too at the same time she killed their father. If the sister had been her only friend during a childhood of abuse, that guilt could've provided another reason for the second personality to develop (if she didn't have DID pre-embrace but developed it as her derangement)

Character development is a fun topic~
But as for the idea you said, the possibility that Therese did exist as a figment of her imagination, there's some things that coincide with that too.

They settled down in Santa Monica, named after Saint Monica, who was the mother of Saint Augustine. Monica is celerated for her years of patience and prayer to convert her son, who also became a saint and carried on the faith.
Therese also calls Jeanette a "Jezebel", which is a figure in the bible and renowned for her promiscuity and seduction. Jeanette also mocked her back saying "Let she who is without sin cast the fierce tone", which in itself is a mockery of a saying in the bible "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", in rejection to the idea of death by stoning. In the second meeting with Jeanette, she refers to Therese as both "Queen Victoria", a pious queen who wore black after the death of her loving husband, and "as pious as a nun". In the final meeting, Jeanette states how Therese would "love to hear how the world think(s) you're(she's) a saint". And Therese uses a plethora of words relating with damnation, such as "vile", "seduction", "deviant, backstabing whore", "sin", "necessary evil", "harlot" etc.

I greatly want to elaborate on all of this, but religion is a hellishly (NO PUN) touchy subject. I'll simply state that "Therese" could've came from the name "Theresa", and let people's views on the nature of religion fill in the rest.
So long as it doesn't come back on here and start a flame war. Again, no pun intended.

Edit: This fits in well with what Duncan said, with the idea of imaginary friends based off of a real figure.
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:30 am

Oh, in response to Duncan, I personally fully believe there was never actually twins- it was either Jeanette who later created the Therese personality (my belief), or Therese who created the Jeanette personality (which seems to be the majority of people on the other discussion board I'm on). But to me...Jeanette is so typical of how I've seen people I know experienced that kind of abuse...flirty, aggressively sexual, yet at the same time child-like in many respects....that that along with the other points I brought up just seems to me to suggest Jeanette as the original/real person, and Therese as the fabrication.

I think probably Jeanette had DID as a human, was `separated' from her Therese personality (which developed as a coping mechanism because of the sexual abuse from her father) via treatment after she killed her father, and then when she was embraced Malkavian it re-emerged, but became a detriment as only a full-blown Malkavian derangement can- no longer was the other personality something that helped her- but actively plotted against her (which she returned when she was the personality in control).
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:49 am

What you say about abused children acting out sexually is true; and your theory about Jeanette being the core personality is feasible, except for one thing... Therese claims that she Embraced Jeanette.  "They tried to separate us, but I refused.  I chose this life... and brought you into it so we could stay together."  I would think that the original personality would be the one who claimed to Embrace the other personality.

The above quote (taken from the final argument, where they go full wacko) sounds like Therese was given a choice by her unnamed sire, and chose to be Kindred... and of course, when the Malkavian blood kicked her derangement into full gear, she rationalized Embracing Jeanette, to explain why her other personality was Kindred too.  

Of course, if Therese can rationalize Embracing her imaginary sister, she could imagine all sorts of stuff that isn't true.  By that logic, you can't trust anything the sisters tell you, and this debate is pointless.  But I tend to think that there are nuggets of truth in what they tell you, and you have to sift through the crazy talk to find out what really happened.  Anyway, this quote is one of the main reasons I think that Therese is the original personality.  Jeanette's sexual escapades with various men is still Therese acting out her repressed sexuality; she's just not doing it with the core personality.  Therese is still convinced that she was the 'good girl' for doing what daddy wanted, so she has no outlet for those emotions except Jeanette.
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:37 am

Well yes, *Therese* claims she chose to become Kindred, and embraced Jeanette so they'd stay together...but Therese also seems to think she's a `good girl' and a paragon of virtue, when in reality she's a back-stabbing murderous biznatch who tries to kill the PC just because she can't control them. Therese also claims Jeanette's `bringing men home' drove their father to kill himself, which I think we can safely assume is bull. So really, anything Therese claims I don't believe. She's completely deluded, justifies everything she does and blames every bad thing on Jeanette. She HAS to be in control, so naturally she'd claim that she was the one who *chose* to become Kindred and *chose* to embrace `her sister'.

Jeanette never outright lies to the PC. She omits information (that the event at Gallery Noir was sponsored by Therese), but she doesn't actually lie. She even tells you the truth that its a scam being concocted by another Kindred if you question stealing the charity box. After you're ambushed at the diner she tells "I used you, yes, but I didn't try to have you killed." Based on that alone, I'd trust Jeanette over Therese...who has no compunctions about killing anything or anyone she can't control.
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:47 am

On a side note:

Despite the fact that the possible outcomes for Santa Monica include one of the Voerman 'sisters' killing the other, I don't think this would last, for several reasons.

1) Malkavians can't be 'cured'.  It's a mandatory part of playing that clan.  Oh, I suppose that if something sufficiently traumatic happened, the derangement might seem to disappear for a time.  But it's like closing the lid on a pressure cooker... it might look peaceful for a while, but the pressure just keeps building until something explodes.

2) You don't treat DID (multiple personality) by getting rid of the other personalities -- common treatment, among doctors who believe DID is a real disorder (some of them don't), is to integrate the personalities, not kill one of them.  Each personality represents an aspect of the original personality-- you can't just get rid of that part of their psyche.  Even if the survivor (Therese or Jeanette) truly believes that the other is dead, the repressed emotions will build until they rationalize that the other is still alive somehow-- after all, she was undead; surely it would take more than a .38 bullet to kill her.  Or maybe a third personality is created.  Perhaps even daddy himself (shudder).

3) If the period of 'sanity' goes on long enough, without some kind of outlet for the MMM (Mandatory Malkavian Madness), another derangement will almost certainly develop, at the Storyteller's discretion.  Even if one derangement is dealt with, the blood of Malkav will chip away at the walls of the Malkavian's mind, until some other weakness develops.

Not that any of this is related to which Voerman sister is the "real" one.  I am just tired, and rambling.  But when I play Bloodlines, I never convince one sister to kill the other, because I don't think it will last.  And then you'd have one sister who hated your guts forever. . LOL . I always convince them to work together, either through Persuasion or just talking (it's possible to do it without Persuasion, but harder... you have to balance everything you say, and not side with either sister for long).
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:00 am

Oh, I definitely trust Jeanette more than I do Therese... there's no question there.  I like Jeanette better, as well... at least she has a sense of humor.  But in digging through the sound files for 'Tourette' (the ones from that final argument), Jeanette never claims to be the one who Embraced Therese.  She admits that she rebels against Therese's control, and sabotages her plans out of spite, but Jeanette never refutes Therese's claim to be her sire.

BTW, there's another clip from Therese, just before she sends you to the diner to 'talk to her sister' (i.e. tries to have you killed).  I think that if you offer to kill Jeanette, Therese tells you that Jeanette is her childe.  I'm not saying that you can trust everything Therese says... but the game developers were at least consistent in Therese's claim to be Jeanette's sire.
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:00 am

Hm, after reading this whole topic, and also having thought about the issue myself for quite some time, I'm convinced that there only ever was one girl. But I just can't decide who of them was the "original" one.
And even if you kind of add up both, the Jeanette and the Therese personality, there is still missing quite a bit for a "complete" person. Both personalities act to a certain extent autistic, and show no empathy at all. They both seem to be artificial. Therese all about being in control of herself and her environment, never caring what this means for others. Jeanette is all about having fun for herself, also not caring about the consequences for anybody else.

So maybe neither is the original one, but after the embrace the made up personalities competely suppressed the original person to the extent that she never shows up in the "schedule", and even the family picture was commissioned, I think by the Therese personality, showing neither one nor three children, but just the two artificial personalities.

-geek 

P.S. Sorry for not giving more details on my reasoning, but I never was any good at communicating my thoughts.

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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:33 am

I freely admit to being biased...I always have Jeanette `kill' Therese, because I hate her with a burning passion lol Besides...at least in Bloodlines, I prefer the Anarchs over the Camarilla, and if you leave Jeanette as the dominant one, Santa Monica is implied to go Anarch whereas Therese wanted to be the Prince of SM for the Camarilla.

I know the canon resolution is to have Jeanette and Therese integrate into Tourette (and yes...I'm aware that DID is treated by integrating the personalities, not destroying them...I got my degree in Anthropology, but I still took classes in psychology because I thought it was interesting)...but, meh. On the other board some people argued that maybe the split personality *wasn't* even their Malkavian derangement. Being a nymphomaniac is sure as heck not normal Kindred behavior, and Therese was, at the very least, a megalomaniac. They both had mental issues that went beyond being two separate personalities in one body...and if she'd had DID as a human, that would've been justification enough for a Malkavian to embrace her in the first place.

It would be ironic, wouldn't it...if the DID *wasn't* her Malk derangement lol

Checking a list of derangements, actually, nymphomania *and* megalomania ARE both listed as derangements XD
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:42 am

Childe of Malkav wrote:

P.S. Sorry for not giving more details on my reasoning, but I never was any good at communicating my thoughts.

You are good enough. And not alone in having problems with formulating thoughts. At least you do better than barking.
*licks Malkav squarely across the face*

To add my two cents. I think that Jeanette was the original one, she got DID before the Embrace and now the personalities have their own derangements, for the arguments presented above by my more outspoken peers.
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:27 am

True, having Jeanette kill Therese is a better Anarch ending.  Because if both survive, when you go back later they announce that they will be supporting Prince LaCroix.  Jeanette even sounds excited at the prospect of Therese being 'Prince' of Santa Monica.

The split personality is definitely not their only derangement, that's for sure.

I admit that one reason I like to bring Therese and Jeanette together is because you get more experience that way... I'm kind of an XP whore.  LOL  However, there are parts of the game where I will take a certain action, regardless of the XP or cost to me, because I feel it is the right thing to do.

Ex.: I usually kill Patty (ghoul at Confessions), even though it costs me a Humanity point, because sending her to San Diego is not helping the Masquerade... it's just passing the buck to someone else.  Plus she's a whiny bitch.  I usually drain her after I take out Boris and his thugs, so I don't have to spend time feeding elsewhere.

I also choose the Independent ending most of the time, although I feel that the Anarchs need a Camarilla presence in L.A., to help keep the Kuei-jin and Sabbat at bay.  In fact, I feel that the Camarilla put LaCroix in L.A. on purpose, knowing he would fail, so that they could replace him with someone better.  Then the Anarchs would say, "Well, at least the new guy is better than LaCroix."  Very old trick... put an unpopular governor in charge of a conquered province, and then after he's killed all of the opposition, replace him later with someone more popular, to win public support.

Never mind; I'm hijacking my own thread here.  Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:49 pm

XP doesn't matter to me in Bloodlines, because I play for the character/story experience rather than the mechanics of the thing (use console cheats...me? Noooo *ducks thrown objects* ). I prefer the good Anarch ending most of the time...simply because of all the factions I genuinely liked and respected Nines- he was a good person for a walking corpse. Besides...how damn satisfying is it to pick up that paperweight off the desk and slash Lacroix's throat after all the hell he put you through? Twisted Evil 

What ending I choose/faction (if any) I side with depends entirely on how the particular character I'm playing develops in my head as I'm playing. (yes, I'm a nerd...)

My first play-through ever I picked Toreador. Genevieve was about as tender-hearted (for a Kindred) as a vampire could get, helped everyone she came across, and was uber-friendly-neighborhood vampire as the trope goes. She sided with the Camarilla because she thought they made the most sense, but kept Jeanette `alive' over Therese because she had a crush on her ( *ahem* Gen liked the ladies over men...) She let the tv host run for it, sent Patty to San Diego, persuaded the friend from the past that she'd mistaken her for someone else...when I say bleeding heart I mean bleeding heart. Not perfect for the masquerade perhaps, but never flagrantly defying it and keeping her humanity intact.

Ariana my Ventrue wasn't as syrupy nice as Gen, but she went against the grain and supported the Anarchs (Therese survived in that game, because I picked the wrong dialogue option at some point). My nos got a bit bitter and resentful at being treated like crap by so many people, so I figured she'd have chosen to go traitor (even though I knew the outcome of picking that side...it's not what I personally would pick after all, it was what the individual *character* would choose). My Tremere supported Strauss (of course...clan loyalty and all that), Brujah went Anarch, and my Gangrel went lone-wolf. She was a good, but very independent person, and came to have a deep respect for Beckett; I like to think she flipped off both the Cam and Anarchs for trying to use her and met up with Beckett outside the city...having zany Gangrel adventures with him as the perfect mentor *g*

On my current play-through as a Malk...*eyes her* I still don't know what side she's going to pick. She hard to predict. Maybe whatever whim she has at the end.
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:15 pm

margifish wrote:
I freely admit to being biased...I always have Jeanette `kill' Therese, because I hate her with a burning passion lol Besides...at least in Bloodlines, I prefer the Anarchs over the Camarilla, and if you leave Jeanette as the dominant one, Santa Monica is implied to go Anarch whereas Therese wanted to be the Prince of SM for the Camarilla.

I know the canon resolution is to have Jeanette and Therese integrate into Tourette (and yes...I'm aware that DID is treated by integrating the personalities, not destroying them...I got my degree in Anthropology, but I still took classes in psychology because I thought it was interesting)...but, meh. On the other board some people argued that maybe the split personality *wasn't* even their Malkavian derangement. Being a nymphomaniac is sure as heck not normal Kindred behavior, and Therese was, at the very least, a megalomaniac. They both had mental issues that went beyond being two separate personalities in one body...and if she'd had DID as a human, that would've been justification enough for a Malkavian to embrace her in the first place.

It would be ironic, wouldn't it...if the DID *wasn't* her Malk derangement lol

Checking a list of derangements, actually, nymphomania *and* megalomania ARE both listed as derangements XD

Somewhat the same here. Though I dont think explaining personal reasons is a good idea.

And as for the DID, Megalomania and Nymphomania, I have a really odd question.
Going by the logic that integration is a better method rather than having one kill another, and that if they have those separate derrangements...
Well, if they truly believed they were separate beings, and if they truly had those derangements, then wouldn't that make the "killing" permanent with the remaining sister in charge?

Duncan.Oliver wrote:
I also choose the Independent ending most of the time, although I feel that the Anarchs need a Camarilla presence in L.A., to help keep the Kuei-jin and Sabbat at bay. In fact, I feel that the Camarilla put LaCroix in L.A. on purpose, knowing he would fail, so that they could replace him with someone better. Then the Anarchs would say, "Well, at least the new guy is better than LaCroix." Very old trick... put an unpopular governor in charge of a conquered province, and then after he's killed all of the opposition, replace him later with someone more popular, to win public support.

I'm only reciting what I've looked up once on tvtropes, but on the part of the Elders and their brand of...humor. Would it also be seen as a very cruel joke, considering how serious the clan of kings takes the game of kings (chess)? IIRC, they play it with people instead of pieces, and games can take decades at the longest? And princeship at the Camarilla-devoid wasteland that is the Anarch Revolt capital is the bitter win of Lacroix?

margifish wrote:
On my current play-through as a Malk...*eyes her* I still don't know what side she's going to pick. She hard to predict. Maybe whatever whim she has at the end.

Perhaps seeing what fabulous prizes await her in the long sought box? Twisted Evil 
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:25 pm

I personally like Nines, but I think if the Anarchs regained control of L.A. he would lose to either the Sabbat or the Kuei-jin, especially if the Anarchs weakened themselves kicking out the Camarilla.  I don't think Nines is clever/cunning enough to stop them.  I think the Camarilla and the Anarchs should be allies; if I were a Kindred in L.A., this is what I'd work towards.  Which of course is why LaCroix has to go... he'd never share power.

I like the Independent ending, because I like to see the Prince blow himself up, (ah, good times!), and because I like how the character gives Nines the finger when he tells you how the Anarchs could use you.  But yes, it depends on which character I'm playing.  I only worked with the Kuei-jin one time (as a Malk), and that was just to see how it ended... I didn't like that choice at all.  I don't like playing that kind of traitor.  Kind of like how I don't like going on a murderous rampage.  I've done it, to see what the game's reaction was; but then I went back to a saved game and continued playing normally.

Okay, so we're off the original topic, so I guess we've run it into the ground.  Next debate... what was Grout's wife's derangement?  LOL  --  Just kidding.  They don't give you enough information.  Although considering you never meet her, perhaps it's Agoraphobia.  Smile
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margifish
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:40 pm

Well, as to the Anarchs losing control to the Kuei-jin or Sabbat...By the end of the game you (the PC) have single-handedly pretty much wiped out the Sabbat *and* the Keui-jin in the city. Now, more could always arrive, but the ones that were there? Dusted. (Unless of course you were dumb and sided with Ming )

I know in WoD canon the city ends up under the control of thin-bloods (irony that), but in the world of the Bloodlines game itself...I'd say whatever faction the PC supported would prevail.

As for whether, if DID was something Jeanette had while mortal and thus not her derangement...you could argue that killing off one of the personalities could be permanent, and she'd still retain whatever derangement she had as that personality anyway (with Jeanette surviving it would be nymphomania and whatever other issues she had...Therese, megalomania...)

And no...the Malkavian PC is certainly precognitive; she might be nuttier than a fruitcake, but she's not opening that bloody box Razz

And Grout's wife? I was always under the impression that that was her suspended in the giant jar just before his bedroom...so maybe she was catatonic (that was listed as a possibility for a malk derangement too).

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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:58 pm

Yes, that is Grout's wife trapped in amber, or whatever he's done to 'protect' her. I suppose she could survive the fire set by the vampire-hunter Bach, if the glass thing is tough enough; although the firefighters might get a surprise the next morning if she's exposed to the sun.

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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:17 pm

I must admit, I haven't read everything posted sice my last post on this topic, but to summarize my feelings

I try to reconcile the sisiters, because I like Jeanette and I know that killing Therese will make her unhappy. If I were a more politically inclined person I'd probably remove Therese to avoid Santa Monica falling under camarilla influence. But since it's without consequences in bloodlines (neither of the sisters gets involved in the bloodhunt)...

For LaCroix, it's also my impression that the camarilla sent him to get rid of a troublesome ancilla. If he should succed, well then it is one more city for the cam. So it's win/win.

Of course with both, the Kuey Jin and the Sabbat trying to take over, the best thing would be to get the Cam and the anarchs to work together. Best thing would probably be to also include the Giovanni in a pact "to keep out Sabbat and Kuey Jin". But with LaCroix in charge, that's impossible. And removing him will give more power to Strauss, which is a problem with Isaak and Gary, if my judgement on the situation is not completely wrong. Nines is a charismatic leader, but certainly not a long term strategist and no diplomat whatsoever. So against my better judgement, usually I leave the city in chaos or sometimes I side with the anarchs...

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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:23 pm

margifish wrote:


And no...the Malkavian PC is certainly precognitive; she might be nuttier than a fruitcake, but she's not opening that bloody box Razz

And if a malk does...UTTER LUNACY...if there is a time to listen to a voice in your head, especially if it's saying to NOT open the box, it would be before saying or thinking to say either of these:

Hmm.... What's in the box? Who can say? Oh, wait, I can, I have the KEY!

or

I have the key! I win! Let's see what fabulous prizes await me inside!

margifish wrote:

And Grout's wife? I was always under the impression that that was her suspended in the giant jar just before his bedroom...so maybe she was catatonic (that was listed as a possibility for a malk derangement too).

One might think it would be the case that she would still be human, but I doubt any method of preservation a bell jar would offer could work for that long. One does wonder if she was embraced, one why Grout would do it, and also, how would he know what to do. He could figure out how the embrace works based on what was done to him, or perhaps even by reading Vampire stories(which might've included the blood exchange method that the early Vampire movies omitted, and is obviously the method used by the oWOD[can't speak for Requiem]).

Plus, if it is true that the one who embraced Grout simply "attacked" him, then how did he consume any of her blood? It might've been that she was a patient that he was attending to, and likely being starved of blood, attacked him to get it. With the only reason that she was subdued being because of the noise it would've made, and the likely close proximity that the mentioned orderlies would've been in. But for him consuming any of her blood, it was probably a mistake, as the case usually goes. Like the one episode of Moonlight(where a Vampire gets hit by a car, and ends up draining the doctor who hit him, but the doctor was actually turned), and UGH....BloodRayne 3([I know, I know. I want the time spent to watch this bloody thing back just like anyone else likely does...Boll owes me EIGHT hours, give or take. He does BR 4? Don't give a shit, not watching the bloody thing]where Rayne feeds on a officer who had some of her blood in his mouth, because another soldier shot her from behind, in the head).

'scuse me while I find that damn brain bleach. Nothing in that movie was disgusting, but the story of all three certainly qualifies.
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Dragatus
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:11 pm

Why would anyone in their right mind watch any Uwe Boll movie?
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Maxus Corvin
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:18 pm

Dragatus wrote:
Why would anyone in their right mind watch any Uwe Boll movie?

I'd cite being a Malk as a reason, but it's also true that watching the first was mostly due to my LUNATIC self hoping it would be good. I SHOULD HAVE STOPPED there. Could say I was drunk each time, but no, not true. His other movies, I wouldn't touch, much less THINK about watching.

First bad sign? The first movie has a mid-evil setting. The first game? 1930s. FIGURE THAT OUT. Better yet, don't, and neither will I, just so I can feel the level of insane that I LIKE.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Santa Monica Madness: or Will the real Voerman sister please stand up?   Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:13 pm

Dragatus wrote:
Why would anyone in their right mind watch any Uwe Boll movie?
I'm certainly cured of that after buying the first two bloodraine movies in a boxed DVD set.
How does that guy still get actors to play in his films?scratch  Probably the producer will only tell them who the director is after they have signed up...

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