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 Salubri 2.0 Discussion

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SaulottheGentle
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PostSubject: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:21 pm

Before all else, Philo thought of this idea, and so the creation of this is completely his credit. Also, some of the text has been paraphrased from his wording as well.

Philo, Claudia, Toreador and I were on the chat talking about Claudia's latest post on how to Toreador. When speaking of the most humane clan, I (as suspected, you know who you are *coughtremerecough*) brought up the Salubri. To which Philo brought up an idea on the Salubri.

Salubri 2.0 -

Vampires with a greater connection to the spirit world, standing as "councilors and mystic leaders" of either the Camarilla (in competition with the Tremere no less) or the Sabbat. The purging did not occur or rather took very little of the clan, being as manipulative as the Tremere or the Serpents and more numerous than what they (The Salubri) were. They can prattle on of their "good guy" status amongst vampires, although they plot and manipulate as much as the next clan.

Their curse is that they take little sustenance from physical blood. They have to drain spiritual energy (souls) in order to feed themselves, in which their curse of Soul-Sucking (Ironic echo) would be kept a huge secret. They can achieve this through Obeah, through which would require some alterations in which would let them feed fully, as well as how Philo described it being "more of a Obteneration but of the spirit world rather than a healing art". The Salubri in a way are "one" with this, almost second nature, much like how Malkavians are to insanity.

For their role in Golconda, it can exist, but the Salubri that choose that way don't stay in Kindred Society. Golconda as well would be a way to destroy your physical body and transverse the Spirit Realm without actually dying.

The major problem with the Salubri is that all of them seem to be Bleeding Heart Jesuses (with Buddhas). As such, the Unicorns would become an actual clan. The Jesus-Buddha would stay, although very few Salubri would be like that, and those would not remain in society. The actual social part of the clan would use that as a cover while being manipulative, heartless pricks like Tremere or Setite.


Well? Come, come! This is a group discussion for a reason Very Happy
Post your ideas and thoughts on this.

Obeah Discipline ("Unchanged" version): http://reference.l2fury.com/index.php?title=Obeah#

As well, would it be alright if this reaches a point where we could call it a project, would it be ok with each idea planned and agreed upon that this could be edited as if it were a page of a Clan? As in Salubri, Nicknames, Clan Disciplines, Quotes, Stereotypes on other Clans and by other clans, descriptions, etc?


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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:25 am

Saulotthegentle wrote:
As well, would it be alright if this reaches a point where we could call it a project, would it be ok with each idea planned and agreed upon that this could be edited as if it were a page of a Clan? As in Salubri, Nicknames, Clan Disciplines, Quotes, Stereotypes on other Clans and by other clans, descriptions, etc?

Claudia asked me to flesh this idea out, so I'll probably do this part and she will post the end result on her tumblr (or keep it in a locked chest, I dunno). But if one feels more inspired than me to begin, be my guest :3

This Salubri 2.0 came around with some ideas for a revamped Sabbat that I have been having. Some ideas to make the Sabbat more belivable, instead of brutal enemies to be used in a Camarilla campaign. Although this new Salubri can be used as a Camarilla clan, as said before.

Only very unknown bloodlines deal with the spirit world. I always found that strange, since Gangrel poke werewolves, Tremere poke Mages and Baali poke Demons. In previous editions, Malkavians poked the Fae. Also the soul-eating vampire is not a new idea.

The philosophy of Golconda is no longer a boddhisatva-like state of enlightnement, but a selfish self-perfection pursuit to leave the physical, imperfect world behind. It is grounded heavily into neoplatonism and theverada buddhism (more ancient and more ascetic) instead of mahayana buddhsim like before.
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:52 pm

Thankies Philo Very Happy

The vague bloodlines, for anyone interested, are the Ahrimanes and Lhiannan bloodlines. And even then they're extremely vague at best. Ahrimanes with weird rituals and Spiritus discipline and the Lhiannan with semi-blood magic and a "spirit shard" that gets passed from sire to childer upon embrace that weakens the sire. But at the least, the Ahrimanes have a Bloodline book. The Lhiannan are found in the Dark ages Companion. Funnily enough the Ahrimanes Bloodline Book mentions the Lhiannan as a possible connection story.

Ahrimanes Bloodlinebook and V20 Rule Books have the most info (Credit to Kara for find these, Bloodlines in Ch 10): https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=06E5BB793D49BE15&id=6E5BB793D49BE15!123

Speaking of spirits and connections to them, how exactly will this be done to alter Obeah toward it, assuming that the already established back ground info of Saulot and his clan's story (travels east, Baali, diablerized by Tremere, purge survival(?)) and the possibility of minor alterations, as well as relationships to other clans (Malkavians in particular)? As well, what do we know of the Spirit World? Claudia?


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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:11 am

You should double check those links, Sally.
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:41 am

SaulottheGentle wrote:


Speaking of spirits and connections to them, how exactly will this be done to alter Obeah toward it, assuming that the already established back ground info of Saulot and his clan's story (travels east, Baali, diablerized by Tremere, purge survival(?)) and the possibility of minor alterations, as well as relationships to other clans (Malkavians in particular)? As well, what do we know of the Spirit World? Claudia?

Well, I aim to change all the Obeah powers into something more fitting. It would be good to maintain at least some form of healing for image purposes. I don't know exactly what every power will be though, and I think this sexy forum might have sexier ideas than me.

I don't mind about the backstory, I see them as legends, fables, rumors and theories made by noddists and vampire historians. The purge would probably be retconned out of existence.

I don't know shit about the spirit world  lol! 
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:02 am

For my part, I like Obeah and Salubri antitribu (especially Adonai, former healer Razz ) as they are. Adonai knows bloody well what he's doing. But the idea of pursuing Golconda and getting diablerized upon creating a childe is sooo stupid; so I'd like to hear a new take on Golconda.
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:04 am

Jad.3 wrote:
For my part, I like Obeah and Salubri antitribu (especially Adonai, former healer Razz ) as they are. Adonai knows bloody well what he's doing. But the idea of pursuing Golconda and getting diablerized upon creating a childe is sooo stupid; so I'd like to hear a new take on Golconda.

"For their role in Golconda, it can exist, but the Salubri that choose that way don't stay in Kindred Society. Golconda as well would be a way to destroy your physical body and transverse the Spirit Realm without actually dying."

"The philosophy of Golconda is no longer a boddhisatva-like state of enlightnement, but a selfish self-perfection pursuit to leave the physical, imperfect world behind. It is grounded heavily into neoplatonism and theverada buddhism (more ancient and more ascetic) instead of mahayana buddhsim like before."

Overall, these are what's new of Golconda as I understand. And to be fair, it fits in better with how the Kuei-Jinn reach Dharma 10. And seeing as the Salubri are much, much more numerous than how they are now, and that's including their three bloodlines, Wu - Nkulu Zaos and Antitribu, the Watcher Caste (The faction of 6 Salubri that do that diablerization) would possibly grow along with the clan or be dimished completely. Regardless, it would be the smallest faction within it.

As for spirits and such, after looking upon some things and with very vague lore, I've come up with the idea that a spirit is the manifestation of human belief, and yet it goes it's own path, not really good or really evil. Think of an Avatar of Peace. It would be composed of and appear like every kind and concept of peace that humanity understands of it, and although it may represent that, that doesn't make it a good thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:27 am

I congratulate you on your academics, but would you please elaborate terms like
boddhisatva-like state of enlightnement,
mahayana buddhism,
neoplatonism,
and theverada buddhism,
and compare the old and new Golconda with Dharma 10 for a simpleton like me? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:15 pm

Jad.3 wrote:
I congratulate you on your academics, but would you please elaborate terms like
boddhisatva-like state of enlightnement,
mahayana buddhism,
neoplatonism,
and theverada buddhism,
and compare the old and new Golconda with Dharma 10 for a simpleton like me? Smile

I'm sorry. D:

In the order of the terms (These may be abit or completely off, googled them):
Boddhisatva-like state of Enlightenment: A boddhisatva to my understanding is a person who is extremely close to enlightenment, or a person who has achieved it an decided to stay to help others along the path to it. The Golconda as we know it now is much like that.

Buddhism: Mostly about suffering being caused by desire, and to cease desire would cease suffering as well, and that enlightenment recieved through meditation, right conduct and wisdom may release one from desire, suffering and rebirth.

Mahayana Buddhism: Search for universal salvation through faith and altruism (very blunt definition).

Neoplatonism: The truth of reality transcends thought and and being and is undiscernable.

Theverada Buddhism: Emphasized personal salvation through your own efforts, a conservative form of Buddhism that adheres to Pali scriptures and the non-theistic ideal of self purification to nirvana.

As for the differences between the old and new Golconda, the "Old" Golconda is closer to Mahayana Buddism and those who make it that far are much like Boddhisatva in the actual sense and like the Kuei-Jin who live that long (This means Dharma 9 at least).
However, the new Golconda is like Theverada Buddhism and Neoplatism, in which it seeks to remove oneself from the "illusion" of reality and join that true reality. I feel the Ravnos are more intimate with this definition, and Philo may put it much better than I can. But otherwise, I think it's closer to the Dharma 10. Because most Kuei-Jinn who make it that far simply "disappear" back to the Cycle of Ages/One Hundred Clouds or become one with it, whereas this version mimics it with the Spirit World (they could be the same thing?).

Again, Philo more than likely has more dots in Academics than I do He does. He's Caine's Progeny. Laughing 
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:05 pm

Well I just realized I looked like a massive cunt using these terms
Anyways, Sally is pretty right, let me just add

Therevada buddhism is the more ancient and original strand of buddhism. It is more secluded, more ascetic, more focused on the personal enlightnement through meditation, erasing of desires and detachment. The therevada ideal is called arahant

Mahayana buddhism is more populist, placing importance on faith and prayer as a possible way to attain enlightnement. The mahayana ideal is the boddhisatva, someone who has attained enlightnement but instead of removing himself from the cycle of reincarnation, he willingly reincarnates in order to teach everyone about nirvana and spread love and compassion to the world.

Platonism claims that there are two worlds: one is physical, sensible and imperfect; the other is ideal, static and perfect. Every human being has a soul, which belongs to the perfect world and is therefore indestructible. Plato says that if one streghens one's own soul through philosophy, the study of reason and commiting moral actions, one would eventually no longer reincarnate and instead live on the ideal world with the gods. Neoplatonism is pretty much the same thing as far as I know.

The new Golconda is all about the spirit world: eliminating carnal desires and streghtening one's own soul, eventually retreating to the spirit world and leaving the material world behind.

I actually know nothing abou the Dharma concepts of the kuei-jin, sorry  bounce I never was interested in them.
I think the whole difference is that Golconda is no longer achieved through humanity and good deeds; instead one achieves it trough Obeah, for it is the discipline that deals with the spirit world.
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:43 pm

ThePhilosopher wrote:

I actually know nothing about the Dharma concepts of the kuei-jin, sorry  bounce I never was interested in them.
I think the whole difference is that Golconda is no longer achieved through humanity and good deeds; instead one achieves it trough Obeah, for it is the discipline that deals with the spirit world.

Don't worry Philo. I can fill in the blanks. Don't worry about terms, that's what google is there for~

To make it blunt, there are four Virtues the Kuei-Jin follow. Hun, P'o, Yin and Yang. There are about 5 main Dharmas or paths and 5 Heretical Dharmas that place value on 1-2 Virtues as well as their own ways. Hun is their Human side, P'o is their demon side (Spectre to put it best), Yin is the negative energies of death and Yang is the positive energies of life.

Simply put, they escape Hell/Yomi and begin at Dharma Zero and try to work their way up to Dharma 10. If they meet final death along the way, they essentially get the "Return to Sender" strapped on and sent their (un)merry way. What happens after hitting Dharma 10 differs between Dharmas, but usually it's some sort of ascension from the physical plane. Followers of The Howl of the Devil Tiger Dharma for example seek to become demons, and do just that at Dharma 10.

Coincidentally enough, there IS a higher end Obeah power that does just what you say.
http://reference.l2fury.com/index.php?title=Unbind_the_Flesh-Clad_Soul

For future reference, I'll post a link to the full set of Obeah powers in the first post.
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:15 pm

Sally you did just fine. Thank you both, gentlemen. Smile

Here's a cookie:
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:35 pm

Alrighty, time to play Devil's Advocate.

Firstly: Philo, with the changes to Golconda and all, I definitely like the idea, but why would it require knowledge of Obeah? To be able to communicate with spirits? The reason I ask this is is because the last thing people may want is a fully unintentional connection to the Children of Osiris, mostly due to the factor that they highly depend on Bardo to keep both their Humanity and the beast at bay. I kind of don't want to see that happen to my favorite clan of soul suckers (that sounds like a lollipop XD).

Secondly, the application of spirits and Obeah for powers, not feeding purposes (which could be on ordinary people with the right Obeah application). From what I know, the Old World of Darkness is split up to three groups when it comes to spirits: Denizens of the Shadowlands (Wraiths/Spectres), Denizens of Hell (Demons), and Denziens of the Umbra (Spirits). And while two of them, Wraiths and Demons, are both game lines and have some connection to Humanity, Spirits are the most vague of them all, and that's saying something when we're talking about a game series that gives most-if not all info to it's players in the books. When I asked Claudia, she said that it may be easier to make our own lore. And overall, Wraiths are already the domain of the Giovanni and Demons to Baali.

The best way to put spirits is that they're everywhere. The Kolduns have the most knowledge (who knows, Tzimisce and Saulot must've gotten along), as they deal with household spirits and elemental spirits, as well as the Way of Spirit to partially become Spirit and claim dominion. The Ahrimanes and their Spiritus discipline mostly deals with animal spirits, a certain power giving them symbolic benefits depending on the spirit they bargain with.

The best way that I can say this idea (by all means this is just a suggestion and not canon unless decided to be the system/story for it), is that Spirits represent something. And to avoid twinking, something meaningful, such as a held belief to a highly emotional connection or a long history. Be it your car, your house, a concept, human belief, etc. Your haven on fire? Wake up it's spirit to tap it out. That man attempting to hurt you? Have the street's spirit trip him up. The Setite having a keg party with Mixed Soul Elixir? Summon a beer ghost and have it empty the keg. What a Face

Thirdly, as I was thinking, if we're changing the Clan curse to literal soul sucking, the first recipient being Saulot himself, then would there need to be changes to the Antitribu as well? Or would it work well with the idea down below?

Finally; The other thought I've had, if the Salubri's curse of Soul-Sucking is a well kept secret, would this serve to bind them together as a clan to survive these nights? Kind of like the Nosferatu with "Clan first, Sect Second", except that it would be the Tremere who is intending on casting them down?

Edit: Added in the special headings to separate the four topics and make it much less TL;DR
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:54 am

Any discredit to Salubri antitribu will be met with severe diablerie!

This here is a link directly to a .pdf of some larp - rules to !Salubri. May be used as an inspiration.
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:47 am

I've read that actually. Really good read. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:07 pm

Alrighty, I have a small idea as to how the Salubri survived the purge.

It's said in the Salubri Clanbook that Saulot woke up in many eras, during which each coming was a joy to all involved, not to mention his involvement with his clan.

As time went on in the Jyhad being councilors and mystics towards lords, some of the Salubri elders saw the Jyhad come close and began to incite even themselves into it. In response, they decided to embrace some manipulators of their own as well as some taking up the mantle of it if it meant their clan's survival.

Then, when the Tremere began and came in with their Thaumaturgy, the Unicorns still had much powers in the way of Obeah and their spirits. Due to their relationships with the Tzimisce and shared piousness with the Nosferatu, they found themselves on the same side often against the Tremere.

But not all things would last. Rumors went about of the Salubri having a dark secret, to which the newly found manipulators directed how to handle it all. Regardless, the Tremere, clinging to the Ventrue, managed to prove their worth and stuck. Although the Salubri remained, they were now walking eggshells about the other kindred on the subject. But it was the same of the Tremere's side as well, due to the Salubri knowing secrets of the Tremeres rituals.

When the Convention of Thorns came about, there was a faction of Tremere who came about. They claimed that the Salubri were soul-suckers and diablerists of the worst kind. They left along with the newly founded Sabbat, to which most Salubri stuck with the Camarilla, now dealing with a double-edged front of the Tremere and their Antitribu.

Which isn't to say that they are good guys any longer. With this new found freedom from their rigid path of Golconda, they have basically defected to decadence, joining the rest of the childer of Caine and the Jyhad.
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:52 pm

Alrighty, an update after speaking with Philo on the Chatbox.

As Salubri cannot ingest blood normally, their curse is that when they feed off of another, for each point of blood they take from the target, the target looses a point of temporary Willpower as well for each blood point taken. (Credit to jad for this idea)

Their havens would be around Motels, Hotels, Hospitals and Madhouses.

Some levels of Obeah would remain in the Discipline. For example;
Sense Vitality
Anesthetic Touch
Unburdening the Beastial Soul
Purification
Unclad the Flesh-Bound Soul

Finally, there would be a level that allows for "direct soul eating" and thus better nourishment.
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Tue May 13, 2014 3:32 pm

Philo, I was hoping to ask if there were some more conceptualization or ideas?
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Tue May 13, 2014 5:23 pm

SaulottheGentle wrote:
Philo, I was hoping to ask if there were some more conceptualization or ideas?

I just fucked the original concept, made it pregnant and then it gave birth to Salubri 2.0
It's an orphan child and it's all yours to take care of if you desire.
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Wed May 14, 2014 1:29 am

Ever heard of alimony, dude?
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Wed May 14, 2014 6:46 am

Jad.3 wrote:
Ever heard of alimony, dude?

 lol! lol! lol! 

Or simple responsibility...
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Wed May 14, 2014 11:33 am

>Implying I care
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Wed May 14, 2014 12:34 pm

ThePhilosopher wrote:
>Implying I care

Oh you fiend, you...   Rolling Eyes 

But we love you anyway.
*hugs*
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Thu May 15, 2014 7:01 am

Get away from me, I know you're just trying to grope my butt.



Meh the homophobe card has grown stale. I wonder what I'll do to amuse myself next. Maybe ask Claudia to break the French law by taking a shower. Who knows?
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PostSubject: Re: Salubri 2.0 Discussion   Fri May 23, 2014 7:58 pm

ThePhilosopher wrote:
SaulottheGentle wrote:
Philo, I was hoping to ask if there were some more conceptualization or ideas?

I just fucked the original concept, made it pregnant and then it gave birth to Salubri 2.0
It's an orphan child and it's all yours to take care of if you desire.

This is a responsibility I feel I am not ready to accept  Shocked 

Although I did put down some ideas for new Obeah levels but that's more like babysitting
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