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 Sheet - creating char

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Jad.3
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PostSubject: Sheet - creating char   Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:43 am

Good I read General info before posting Smile

I cannot asign any points before intro (ok), but Auto spend button still works to a degree, it asigns one point to each discipline and then I can toy with it to level of 5-5-1 dots in disc. I guess it ties to the original bug, recommend disabling the button (whole sheet even).

Other than that, I see what you did there, and I approve Smile Please allow some "redo" or "undo" when "Next" becomes available (the game is slow in recognizing new points). Also show how the points were spent.

Edit: Since the sheet is accessible during conversations, the last sentece is moot.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:17 am

Jad.3 wrote:
Good I read General info before posting Smile

I cannot asign any points before intro (ok), but Auto spend button still works to a degree, it asigns one point to each discipline and then I can toy with it to level of 5-5-1 dots in disc. I guess it ties to the original bug, recommend disabling the button (whole sheet even).
Yep, I have forgotten about that. The least I can do is change the auto-spend. Of course it would be better to switch it off, or even skip the whole character sheet at this point.

Quote :
Other than that, I see what you did there, and I approve Smile Please allow some "redo" or "undo" when "Next" becomes available (the game is slow in recognizing new points). Also show how the points were spent.
For a reset option, I must see what I can do. And I must also see that you cant reset points you have spent earlier in the free point section to get a 5th discipline or whatever.

Quote :
Edit: Since the sheet is accessible during conversations, the last sentece is moot.
In teh very first version I had that hint in the opening text. I'll add it again.

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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:23 am

I have tried, but it seems impossible to redo attribute, ability, or discipline changes. First the game doesn't recognize the changes unless it saves, and that is impossible during dialog. And second, bumpstat only works for positive values, and I cant make "vstats sell" work from python.
The only chance is to postpone the actual stat increase until you confirm it. But then you can't see the dots in the sheet before that time.
I'd prefer it if I could let you set the first set of dots in the creation sheet. But I haven't found a way to limit choices to level 2. And since I intend to keep the disciplines free...
On the other hand, if I leave the initial cost for a discipline at 10xp, people will probably think twice before spending all 3 points on one discipline.
Problem is, a character who starts the game with level 3 dominate or dementation is way overpowered. imagine the beachhouse: Suicide two, trance and drain the third, repeat with the remaining guys...

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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:05 am

Childe of Malkav wrote:
The only chance is to postpone the actual stat increase until you confirm it. But then you can't see the dots in the sheet before that time.

I wouldn't mind that. Or, if it seems too complicated, leave it as it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:14 pm

As a Nosferatu you can asigna point to Subterfuge during character creation, which is then lost when the game begins.

It would be good if the dialogue told you that you can't upgrade attributes, abilities and disciplines any higher than 2 dots.

First dot in disciplies costs 100 XP, second dot costs 50 XP. I suggest making both cost 50 because otherwise you get penalized for picking anything other than 1 dot in all the clan disciplines.

Being able to pick an extra discipline for your character is very interesting, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to give everyone Celerity though (because that's what msot people will pick). If you do, you shoud also make the upgrade costs higher (70 x level instead of 50 x level). Possibly make disciplines cost 70 x level by default and then give each clan's trait effect reduced cost to upgrade clan disciplines.

Attributes cost 4 freebies or 40 XP, but Abilities cost 2 freebies or 30 XP. That makes spending freebies on abilities 50% more XP efficient.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:40 pm

Can you spend points on subterfuge or appearance as a Nossie? I thought I made that impossible. Hm, maybe only one, or after the fix. scratch

Yep, sounds reasonable to put the limits in the description.

For the disciplines, I will certainly change the cost for non clandisciplines to 70. Reducing the first dot for clan disciplines to 50 seems reasonable, too.

Maybe you're right. I should make freeby abilities more expensive. In p&p there are much more abilities, so for bloodlines three dots might be better.

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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:57 pm

I checked again and as Nosferatu I was able to invest both the standard dots and freebie points into increasing both Appearance and Subterfuge. (I picked the Video Game Pulbisher history that changes order of attributes to Mental, Social, Physical.)

I ran through character generation 3 times and the results were always the same, so it wasn't a weird one time bug.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:54 pm

You're right about this problem. I'll fix it right now.

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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:49 am

I suggest making generation cost 2 points per dot instead of 1, both when spending initial background points and when sending freebies. Right now it's just way to attractive.

5 dots in resoruces is going to give $1250. 5 dots in Generation gives +50% blood pool. Would you spend $1250 on 50% more blood in your system? I'd do it every single time without a second thought.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:14 am

You'r right, spending points on generation is very attractive.
It's hard to adapt the rules for a roleplaying game intended for long campaigns to a computer game that is over after one rather short story, and keep it all balanced.
In the p&p rules you get a lot more points for attributes and abilities, you get 15 free points, attributes cost 5, and disciplines 7 regardless if clan discipline or not.

Hm, I can make generation more costly, or leave the choice of higher generation for people who seek the challenge...

Or I implement feeding restrictions to the lower generations. From "no ratfeeding" for generations 11 and lower to "only bluebloods and ghouls" for gen 8. For Nossies and Ventrue there have to be different restrictions.

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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:53 pm

I'd rather have generation cost more character generation points than have it restrict my feeding.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:59 pm

If I set my generation to 8 and then try to reset to 13, it seems to break the dialogue.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:34 am

Dragatus wrote:
If I set my generation to 8 and then try to reset to 13, it seems to break the dialogue.
Fix 2 or 3?

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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:44 am

I first noticed it in fix 2, just before I saw fix 3 was avilable. But it seems to persist in fix 3 as well.

1. I keep imroving my generation until I'm 8th.
2. "Reset generation to 13."
3. Only dialogue options available is "Return to background."
4: When I return to Background the only options are "Overview" and "...back".
5. "...back" does nothing and "Overview" leads to "I do not have a valid reply." That ends the dialogue.


Last edited by Dragatus on Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:48 am

I checked for other generations and the reset worked fine for generation 12, but anything better resulted in the same broken dialogue.

Edit: Correction, it does not work fine for generation 12 either. I could reset it 3 times, but then I got the broken dialogue again.


Last edited by Dragatus on Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:06 am

I found the problem in the character_creation.dlg, line 212. The effect of reseting generation is G.Gen_Count -=G.Back_Gen, which reduces background points even further instead of refunding them. This casued Gen_Count to drop below 0 which broke the conditions in the dialogue. Changing -= to += fixed the issue.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:17 am

And while I'm at it, I noticed two more things:

1. If you run forward too soon, Jack starts talking to you. When he's doen the character_generation dialogue does not trigger. However, this actually proved to be a useful timesaver when I was checking the hand textures. Don't fix it just yet. Wink

2. Chargen dialogue does not take into account limitations imposed by histories. A Malkavian with the Ninja history can spend points on Firearms, only to have the skill get set 0 in the actual game.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:48 am

Thanks for looking it up in the dlg-file.

I've never tried to run out right after starting the game. Then I'l have to start the generation dialog sooner. This dialog is called int the python script that fixes the "no hands" bug. An it has to be called with a delay so it doesn't interfere with the autosave.

Yes, I know that I haven't yet made all the history changes.

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PostSubject: Re: Sheet - creating char   Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:08 am

I'd like to keep the option to bypass character generation for now. In case I want to test something with all the clans again. Maybe just put a warning in the message that tells you about movement keys?
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