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 Socialist America?

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PostSubject: Socialist America?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:00 am

I found a wonderful picture that pretty much describes what our new President is doing with his 4 year term.


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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:24 am

So, what's he done to deserve this? Send even more soldiers into this bloody war, his predecessor started?
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:18 pm

Well the soldiers go without saying, no he turned our Healthcare system into a socialist system, like Canada. In other words, he got rid of Healthcare entirely. He wants to make America a communist country.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:10 pm

Do you actually beleive that spending better the same (or so) amount of money budgetted for medicare, to also cover the poorest of the US.. is being communist ?
I mean, do you beleive Canada is communist (while having a social security for all it's inhabitants) ?

The military healthcare for military men and women of the US is EXACTLY what Obama wanted to do.. but for all the population. Do you actually beleive the US military is communist ? Really ?


Yes, I'm French, yes I'm proud that, for any medical problem, a doctor who will give me a prescription will only charge me 22 euros, from which 12 are given back to me by the social security, and the rest is usually given back by my mutual organization (there are mutual organisation for everybody, whatever your health is like. Mine is the college student's, my grand father's statal because he works as a state employee in universities, my dad has one free because he is unemployed).



I mean I don't want any polemic, and I understand why and how the US chosed to have a weak and non interfering state... but the countries that survived well to the crisis are states who protect better it's citizen. Yep, "socialists". I know the US is all about "if you have an idea you can become billionaire" and self building.. but that died 50 years ago. It worked for Edison and Ford, yes. Do you think Bush builded himself alone ? I don't think so, since well, he did the same as his father, right ? Money gets you to the better schools, not will, knowledge and hard work.
Ford and Edison are two persons, for a country about 100 000 million habitants (in 1910). The system only serves a vast minority, and the majority still buys it, and beleive they can be part of this very privilegied, lucky (right time, right place, right studies, right friends) minority. Because once in a while, a Bill Gates or an Eminem pops out of nowhere and tell his very surprising and hopefull success Story. how about the others ? How about all those soldiers with honor and everything that end up being homeless ?
Ford did do everything for his employees, he raised the wage, he payed well, he wanted everybody to be able to buy his car (because it's good for business). Ford was an entrepreneur, but he did it for the best of everybody. Today, a new Ford won't care if his employees can't buy his car, he'll sell it somewhere else. Somewhere, something went wrong in the 80's.


Sarkozy as well as most old rich republicans should actually live, for once, like we, the poorer yet voluntary, looking for a job, looking for something to eat, looking to give something to the society.. do live.
Sarkozy should try living like me. I have 460 euros per month, my appartement is 250 (it should be 580 but because i have a "scholarship for the underpriviledged, those 460 euros I talked about earlier", society helps me a bit with housing). This leaves me 210 euros for phone, electricity, and food. And we are two on this. now addup that my boyfriend has diabetes (type 1, very severe and advanced, which means he can't feed on pasta everyday, oh and he has a PH.D in psychology, and looked actively for work for 3 years since he was fired because of his illness). And I'm lucky, I have internet ! I even have a fridge. Yep, most of us don't have mommy and daddy to give us money. Right, Jean Sarkozy ?
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:43 pm

The tenets of socialism is, in theory, a good idea. The problem is that it doesn't work.

Take Ivan and Igor, two Russian farmers living in the USSR. They both get what they need each month from the government. Ivan is a good farmer, and he works very hard each month, always delivering bushels of grain that surpass his quota. Igor is a lazy farmer, and only just manages to cover the bare minimum each month. However, they both receive the same amount from the government.

It doesn't take long for Ivan to glance at his neighbor and realize that he's busting his hump for nothing; so he slacks off a little bit each morning until he too becomes a lazy farmer. This is the reason why Russia, who so wholeheartedly embraced the tenets of communism, collapsed entirely. The Cold War ended without a shot being fired because they couldn't even feed themselves.

America was founded under the principle of the government that governs least, governs best. The settlers who first came here were fleeing the oppression of the old boys club in Europe, and decided that people should rule themselves. We adhere to a set of common sense rules and help each other, and society as a whole prospers. Unfortunately that's not what Barack Obama and his radical cabinet, as well as his supporters, believe in.

It's become abundantly clear to every American what they're after; the redistribution of wealth, and the wholesale seizure of our independence. It began with the health care system, and won't stop there, not unless the people who really believe in this country stand up and reassert our freedom.

Socialists have nothing but contempt for those who succeed above and beyond others. Socialists believe in enabling the weak, the lazy, and the stupid. Your typical Obama supporter, from what I've seen around my own college campus, is a loser who wants to be taken care of. They want nothing more than to stand around and fiddle with their iPhones, smoke weed and drink Paps Blue Ribbon.

It's almost fashionable these days to bash America, so much that Obama has become a contemptible apologist for our success. His cronies have wheedled their way into passing this recent health care bill against the will of the people, one that charges every man woman and child a tax just for breathing and redistributes this second tax to the masses that did nothing to deserve it.

Yet the fact remains that this country is historically the place where immigrants from ALL nations the world over have fled to because the situation in their own nation had become so intolerable. I don't believe we will remain that way if this bleeding of Lady Liberty continues. If the government can assert itself into the lives of American citizens and force us to purchase something, so too can they force us under this same principle to do anything they deem necessary to help 'the greater good'.

That's why there are a lot of people pissed off in America right now, myself being one of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:47 pm

Your argument sustains itself.. except for one thing. You are talking about USSR Communism (which is not "real communism"), not Socialism.
Therefore everything is invalid.

And please, I don't think you're incult enough to judge a political idea or a reform by its followers.
There are assholes everywhere, in any political idea or any other thing, but that is not a reason to discredit anything..

Your story has rights and wrongs. USSR Communism failed because the people at the power was corrupted, everything was centralized and everything was owned by the party and its oligarchy. This applied communism has nothing to do with the ideology it tried to bring forward. However, the quotas asked were so high that you couldn't be a "lazy farmer" like your Igor. In a small local level it could totally work (have you ever seen the Smurf ? yes it's childish, but think a bit about it).


"Socialists have nothing but contempt for those who succeed above and beyond others. Socialists believe in enabling the weak, the lazy, and the stupid."
You are wrong here. Socialist respect achievers and look up to them, since they help the ones that didn't get lucky enough to succeed as well. You are angry because your taxes pay for feeding and housing the poorest ? You should be angry because your taxes get the rich even richer and allows Paris Hilton to pay 100 000$ for a house for her dog ! And even pay for lawsuits because some guy tripped over a french fry... Do you think these sueing dudes worked their ass off for it ? Or any guy who won a "police abusal" lawsuit ? I'm not against lawsuits but we should keep it to a reasonable standard.
Look, I'm not against personnal achievement, but that only works if you get the sames chances as everyone else. And in oligarchy USA, that is not true. If you are born in the right place, in the right family, then it's all good. But if you have less wealth in your baby life, then it's all different.. At least, here in France, you can have any university degree if you work hard enough, even if you don't have the money. Do you think it's fair and ok that only a small minority in the Us get in big universities and rule the country with their money (bush father and bush son... sounds like democracy.. yeah right..), lobbies and huge families....


"His cronies have wheedled their way into passing this recent health care bill against the will of the people, one that charges every man woman and child a tax just for breathing and redistributes this second tax to the masses that did nothing to deserve it."

Have you read the actual bill ? YEah it's about 1000 pages long, yeah it's a law bill therefore it's a pain in the ass to read, but please read it. They are not charging anyone more, they are just using the same money in other ways. Your taxes WILL NOT INCRASE because of this.



"We adhere to a set of common sense rules and help each other, and society as a whole prospers. "
Help Each Other is exactly what they want to do, but instead of having tons of charities not coordinated, they are trying a federal global aid. I understand US citizens don't trust the government, it's legitimate and they are probably right. But even with all of your charities, you have about 40 million poor and very poor on your country. Are you actually thinking these are just bloodsuckers trying to live on wellfare ? Yeah, they are probably not WASP, so why care ? This is wrong...
I'm not saying French system is perfect, but my fiancé is diabetic, and he didn't deserve to be diabetic. He has worked hard through his life, and I don't see why it's wrong for him not paying for his 100 euros a month Insulin (and I'm not even talking about the 500 euros gluco-meter).


Most of socialists do not take advantage of the system, but they benefit from it. Of course, they are always some people trying to get away with the least efforts, but this should not penalize the ones that try but can't find their place, even if degrees, even with experience, even with all the will in the world.


I'm not saying capitalism is plain evil. It wasn't, as communism, socialism or even monarchy, until it got applied by power hungry bastards. In the 1910's, it was good. Ford raised wages, and "was doing good to his country by doing well". In the 60 and 70 it was quite good too, but now, it's not productive. It's to get the rich even richer at the expense of hard working people that beleive they'll make it to the top. I don't think Jobbs, Gates and Bush will be begging for food if we take 1bn$ to sanitize every house in california, a even build a couple more for the homeless soldiers with purple heart and hard working road builders. I'm talking about the outragiously rich, not the hard working doctor earning 4000$ a month. Those are great achievers, and that's totally respectable. However, Danish and Swedish give more to their teachers and "people who bring important stuff to society". They give them respect, not millions. And that's very nice. You don't need 4 houses and 5 cars. I don't need 5 rooms when just one is enough. Why this hunger for more and more and more, depriving the family of 5 living in only one room ?

But traders, really ? I mean, I'd like to kick the ass of that asshole who lost 5bn euros with traders in a bank (Société Générale) as much as I'd do to Madoff. Do you think this guy earned the life he lived ? That's today applied capitalism. Why defend those bastards ? The system is for them, not for hard working normal and commun people...



Why, being French, do I care ? Because I truly care about people, and even if it doesn't concern me, it saddens me to see lotteries around a top country for dental care. It saddens me to see what some americans go through and that 60% of them will spend at least one year in poverty...
I truly beleive it's for the best, and it's not even a sacrifice. Look around you how people have suffered (and college campuses aren't revelant.. since they have the chance to be able to pay for college)


(anyway, I'm not for political discussions, we are here for the game \o/..)
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:31 pm

Yeah, we could go back and forth and pick each others points apart sentence for sentence and have a nice debate over the whole thing, but instead I'm going to concede the discussion. Games like Bloodlines exist, at least for me, to be able to let go of all the heavy stuff going on in the world. I will say, though, that your perception of America being an Oligarchy where birth dictates the station you're going to live in for the rest of your life is a pretty ridiculous statement...but understandable, since you're on the outside looking in. I'm not saying there aren't dynasties that produce spoiled little brats (i.e. Paris Hilton) but those same dynasties were established by immigrants who were talented and cunning enough to become wealthy in the first place. But the point is moot anyway because wealth doesn't dictate quality of life. It's easy to assume everyone wants to be rich to be happy, but what everyone really wants is just to be left alone and free to pursue their own avenue to happiness.

Basically the whole point I was trying to make is that people can take care of themselves. Charity is best left on a voluntary, private sector basis rather than a compelled government-mandated program.

The less Big Brother looks over your shoulder, the better.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:00 pm

Wow Dante! I'm electing you for President!

Seriously man, you wrote something that I've been trying to get off my chest for a good time now, everything you wrote I agree with 100% I just needed you to find the words for me. You are exactly right about Claudia being on the outside looking in, it's very very much different living here than it is reading about it 2,000 miles away.

I don't want to get into another debate as these wonderful European friends of ours simply don't understand what is truly happening here, and thats ok. But in the meantime during this depression we're living in I will continue using my free time creating a more submersive World of Darkness that will help all of us escape the woes of reality just a little more.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:54 pm

Socialists believe in enabling the weak, the lazy, and the stupid?

http://www.irishcentral.com/story/ent/manhattan_diary/americas-middle-class-is-dying-and-the-stats-prove-it-99180624.html

If you think the 'superrich' (the people who you are protecting by positing the tired right wing cliche at the top of the post) need or want you to defend them, then I guess you're doing what you think is right.

I'm sure they all got to their positions in life by being the strongest, smartest and most hard working, all had the same benefits and detriments (IE: got dealt the same hand of cards) in life as the rest of us. No, it wasn't just luck or backstabbing or building empires on the backs of the TRUE hard workers (you know... the people in China and Taiwan who they outsource to for less then a dollar and hour).

However, unless you are part of that top 3% of the money holders in our (supposedly) socialist 'becoming' country, THEY think YOU are the "weak, the lazy and the stupid".

Good luck with that. Maybe they'll thank you with a nice fat Christmas goose someday for defending their way of life.....

But I doubt it.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:38 am

Socialism works in plenty of countries: Norway, Sweden, Denmark, New Zealand, just to name a few. The U.S. has socialist programs: roads, bridges, schools, MediCare, Medicaid, the V.A. medical system. At what point is a country a "socialist country?" When Rush Limbaugh says so? When Sarah Palin says so? When Dennis Kucinich says so? When Thom Hartmann says so? When I say so?
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:16 am

I believe the point Z, was making is that it doesn't matter if socialism works in some other counties or not. Many of them are currently going "broke" at this moment, as an example Greece. What his point was is that America was founded as a Republic, where there was not such a thing as mob rule ( full democracy ), nor was the Fed Gov initially set-up to have the far ranging powers / control that it currently has. The founders of the US, after having looked at the various models of Gov ( they had a few thousand years of history to look at ), decided that a Rep Republic would give the average man the most freedoms to pursue his god given rights of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

This concept has been lost through the years, of ever increasing corruption ( in both Rep and Dem circles ) in the US Fed Gov, trading away the US citizen's rights to what the founders initially wanted, for the trade off of giving people "handouts". Handouts, in what ever form they take do one thing for certain, they enslave and control those getting the handouts to those who are the ones doing the giving. One thing that has never changed though-out human history, is that those in power ALWAYS want more...it doesn't matter what the system of Gov is...Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Monarchy, Nationalism, Feudalism, or a guy with a Gun. Same old story... that in the end, those in power will find a way to have MORE of it.

Socialism if "pure" is a good concept, "on paper" and in theory, however, the issue with it is two-fold. First, is that it does indeed foster a "dependency" on those willing to give out the money, to take care of those who are looking for a free ride. That's not to say that "everyone" is looking for such a ride, some really need help, but many do! That money has to come from somewhere though...Gov's don't really have any money to speak of, they first have to take it from those who produce and make it. That being the second issue, is that eventually Gov's will run out of other people's money, as the producers eventually get discouraged to produce as much, so there is less to tax. Either that, or they just stop trying completely...as there is no longer any real incentive to try. This scenario doesn't hold true 100% of the time, but is pretty indicative of how this system does work. I'm not saying that Capitalism is perfect either...it has it's good range of issues as well, there is no PERFECT system akin to something like the fictional "Star Trek Federation" which of course is almost a pure communistic society ( everything owned by the state, no money, everyone works for everyone's benefit ).

As per socialistic countries going broke, some might say, well yeah so is America. No...you'd be wrong...WE ARE BROKE! We've been broke now for a very LONG time, but it isn't Capitalism that broke the bank, nor the RICH ( who in the most part provide the jobs for the average Joe ), it is in the continuing and ongoing process in Washington, of spending way more money than it takes in, and then taking loans from other countries to try and cover the ever increasing debt. The solution is not higher taxes either, as that just discourages business owners from hiring more employees, as they have less money each quarter ( businesses pay taxes 4 times yearly ) so they have less money to pay any employees with. The answer is for Big Gov ( in WHATEVER form it comes in, Cap, Soc, Com etc ) to stop telling people that Gov is the final answer to everything and to stop spending more than they have. Again though, Gov's ALWAYS want more power and control over the populace...that will never, ever change and the way each system does it is by controlling the populaces money, health-care, social programs whatever...take your pick...freedom for most is an illusion...

So...what Z is saying in the picture at the head of the post ( I am guessing ), is that for the most part, a LARGE percentage of Americans don't like the direction this country is going...which is further away from the Republic it was founded as. And the picture is fairly accurate...you cannot continue to drain the life blood out of a country ( taxes ) to pay for more and more social programs ( or any other programs, military, science etc, etc ) there has to be a limit.

"I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."

-- Winston Churchill
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:37 pm

Nice statements Max, I read the whole thing! cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:23 pm

Maximus1 wrote:
As per socialistic countries going broke, some might say, well yeah so is America. No...you'd be wrong...WE ARE BROKE! We've been broke now for a very LONG time, but it isn't Capitalism that broke the bank
Yes, it is.

Good news is so far we can all discuss a very sticky and emotional issue without resorting to calling each other names.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:23 pm

Childe of Munster wrote:
Maximus1 wrote:
As per socialistic countries going broke, some might say, well yeah so is America. No...you'd be wrong...WE ARE BROKE! We've been broke now for a very LONG time, but it isn't Capitalism that broke the bank
Yes, it is.

Good news is so far we can all discuss a very sticky and emotional issue without resorting to calling each other names.


Explain and clarify your thought process, and use facts, not feelings or platitudes... as I truly want to understand your reasoning. I'm not being nasty, I'm sincere and curious, seeing as how most nations living under socialistic governments are either broke as well...or going broke. You seem to not like a free market system. Of course, I know universities over the last 25-30 years have been teaching the horrors and inequities of free markets, but that doesn't mean they are right. The school system, was the progressives first attack on the free market system, as back in the 50's they more of less stated that America would never be conquered by force, but would fall from within. Tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth, regardless if it is a lie, only what is believed is of any importance. Just so anyone reading this understands my thought process, I am a moderate, to conservative thinking Libertarian. I believe in smaller, less obtrusive Gov's ( it doesn't matter the form ), that takes care of it's citizen's to a "point", but the citizen should also do all he / she can to take care of themselves and have Gov stay basically out of my hair and business dealings, unless I am doing something Illegal, or really hurting someone.

Just who are "they" anyway ( those we place in authority ) and why do we put so much blind faith and trust in ANY of them...most are just corrupt lawyers that have gone into politics to grab and seize what power and money they can for themselves. In truth, when a politician is telling you something and giving you something with one hand and smiling, they are reaching into your wallet and taking something with the other hand. Does anyone truly believe that the vast majority of these so-called "leaders" really have anything in mind but their own ideologies, and own best interests in mind ( regardless of the party ) when they seek and go into political office? Most of them just see the average person, as nothing more than an inept Tax Serf...and I'm saying this on ALL sides of the political arena.

For those of you who truly believe in HUGE ever expanding Gov's and their right to control every aspect of your lives, both personal and business / financial...what is the actual UP-Side to such a form of Gov? Will you as an individual actually benefit from such? Those who have lived under such forms of Gov and that have fled that way of life, to come live in America will tell you such is not true and that it is a lie. Will this not in effect, by going down this route, come at some eventual price...such as a possible totalitarianism rule at some point? For those of you living in America and laughing at such...it has happened in other countries through-out history...why not here? Are we special...protected, or immune to the desires of such happening? I think not! Does anyone really want to have to show their ID's when just traveling from state-to-state..."papers please"...NO THANKS, I'll take an imperfect America any day of the week over a RULED America. And for what...punishing some so-called Rich fat cats...how does that actually benefit you, or anyone, except to perhaps make you feel better...for a short period of time. I guess, if your the type of individual ( speaking in generalities here, not to any one person ), who wants to be truly taken care of by your Gov, and sit on his or her hind-parts, while being taken care of by and at the expense of others...well, then there might be some type of personal benefit...I would have to reluctantly agree to such a thing, but to the rest of the populace...probably not.

I agree with Z, about the health care debacle, as my wife works in health care. Most of us have no idea how this 2000 page monstrosity called the "health reform bill" that was "force" passed ( with roughly 70% of Americans against it ) is going to affect us...but I can tell you, at some point personal income taxes are going to go through the roof, even for the middle class that is earning anywhere from $30,000 a year and up, will have it's taxes increase upwards, WAY UPWARDS...they simply HAVE too...there isn't any money to pay for all the so-called "free" care...which isn't free...where will the money come from? It will come from "anyone" who is taxable that's where it will come from. The only ones not being taxed, will be those either unwilling, unable to, or don't care about making any income ( Gov check paid for by the taxpayer ), everyone else will see their taxes skyrocket. Health care hasn't been fixed by this bill...it's only been made worse...doubt me...don't "hammer" my assertions, or call me evil names, just wait 5- 6- 7 years and you will be able to judge so for yourselves. My wife hears all the time, from Canadians who can't get their "free" socialistic health care at home and travel down to America, to seek the care they "cannot get" from their Government at home. Most are just horrified that Americans have been "duped" into having a similar type system here...one guy actually said to her, we must be a nation of ill informed idiots, to have allowed this to happen to ourselves. Obviously, I never met the guy, but I think he's got a pretty darn good point!

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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:32 pm

Maximus1 wrote:
Explain and clarify your thought process, and use facts, not feelings or platitudes.
No offense, but you're asking me to reply to your platitudes without using platitudes of my own.

For example, how do you "know" that "universities over the last 25-30 years have been teaching the horrors and inequities of free markets?" That's a talking point of the right-wing media. And your statements about "papers please" are pure slippery-slope hyperbole.

Countries that have government-sponsored health care (which is different from true socialized medicine, which is a system where the government owns all the health-care facilities and employs all health-care providers) have lower rates of infant mortality, lower rates of cancer and heart disease and lower health-care costs. Yet you're saying the way the U.S. does it is the best way? If you are saying that, why? If other systems can get better results, why is the U.S. system better?
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:10 am

No offense taken Very Happy I'm not a right winger...but neither am I a leftist. I'm a free thinking individual, and I'll vote into office any person from any affiliation, provided I believe him to be an honorable and trustworthy individual, sadly I haven't seen too many of those around the last 30 years. How do I know that universities have been teaching this about free markets you ask? Because I went "through" the system...and I had many professors do and teach "exactly" what I wrote about, to myself personally over 20 years ago...it has nothing to do with media "anything". I've had friends in other universities, who have had the same type of treatment over the years, so I see a pattern. My statement about "papers" was used simply to illustrate a point...nothing more nothing less.

Do I believe such will happen in America? No...at least I surely HOPE not, but anyone who doesn't believe such a thing is at least possible, even if unlikely, is not only naive, but is also not a student of history. Bad men have a way of making bad things happen, and for the most part, if history is used as a model, it is usually too late by then.

Also, I'm not saying that the American health system is "the-best-way", where did I write that? Insurance costs are way out of control, but that is mostly ( but not completely ) due to many years of malpractice suits, against both the insurance companies, and also doctors themselves, many times by the same greedy, sometimes corrupt lawyers who are now some of our wonderful politicians.

Where do you get the facts, that these other systems are that much better...besides I am guessing what...the left-wing media? If not there...where would I find your facts, I would really like to look over the data. Also, the US Fed Gov has had been involved in the medical system for years...that is in fact truth, what I am expounding here is when or if there are no more private options left...only a public option left by the state, as the private sector may at some point no longer be a viable option due to Gov over-regulation. That is what Canadian's who talk to my wife, seeking help in our health care system here in America fear, because they have no other option left to them at home.

My wife recently had a case from Canada, come into the hospital seeking cardiac care, since the scheduled appointment for his "procedure" that he possibly needed was 10 months in the future. He was worried and didn't want to wait that long. My wife was in charge of doing the tests necessary to decide what...if anything needed to be done. She found stuff that she was worried about and had the Radiologist on hand go over her findings. The Radiologist became so alarmed at the sight of what he saw, that they wheeled the guy straight into the emergency room, for immediate surgery. My wife has been in the medical field for over 20 years, and she said that if this patient had stayed in Canada and waited for his eventual appointment, that he would have been dead long before that time ever arrived...yet because he could get immediate care here he is still alive.

No the US medical system isn't perfect, it is too darn expensive, goes without saying, however, it is also available any time you need it...at least for the time being. Even without insurance you won't be turned away at the emergency room ( contrary to many beliefs ), as my wife has witnessed countless times happening for many uninsured patients.

Thanks Childe !
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:03 am

Maximus1 wrote:
How do I know that universities have been teaching this about free markets you ask? Because I went "through" the system...and I had many professors do and teach "exactly" what I wrote about, to myself personally over 20 years ago...it has nothing to do with media "anything".
I went through the "system" 25 years ago, plus law school more recently, and had liberal professors and conservative professors. I discerned no pattern of indoctrination regarding the evils of capitalism.

Quote :
Also, I'm not saying that the American health system is "the-best-way", where did I write that?
I didn't say you wrote it, I asked if that was what you were saying.

Quote :
Insurance costs are way out of control, but that is mostly ( but not completely ) due to many years of malpractice suits, against both the insurance companies, and also doctors themselves, many times by the same greedy, sometimes corrupt lawyers who are now some of our wonderful politicians.
You can find sources which indicate that medical malpractice insurance have to do with the performance of insurance company financial portfolios than with damage awards: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03702.pdf

Quote :
Where do you get the facts, that these other systems are that much better...besides I am guessing what...the left-wing media?
If there's a left-wing media out there, I'd love to find out about it.

Infant mortality rates: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html
Heart disease death rates: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hea_dis_dea-health-heart-disease-deaths
Various cancer death rates (years 1986-88, and U.S. cancer rates are falling faster than other nations', so maybe not the most accurate picture): http://rex.nci.nih.gov/NCI_Pub_Interface/raterisk/rates42.html

Quote :
My wife recently had a case from Canada, come into the hospital seeking cardiac care, since the scheduled appointment for his "procedure" that he possibly needed was 10 months in the future. He was worried and didn't want to wait that long.
Everyone has a horror story. That's why anecdotal evidence is worthless when trying to demonstrate the overall effectiveness, or lack thereof, of a large system.

Quote :
No the US medical system isn't perfect, it is too darn expensive, goes without saying, however, it is also available any time you need it.
A friend of mine had to reschedule a colonoscopy, and was told the next available appointment was in 6 months. A few years ago, my daughter hurt her finger badly enough to require a trip to the ER. First we went to an urgent care facility. Two hours later, they told us to go to the ER. Nine hours later, a doctor stitched my daughter's finger up.

Everyone has a horror story.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:43 am

Thanks for the information Childe, I'll look through it in detail later when I have a chance to wade through all of it. Your right, everyone does have a horror story! While you seem not to have endured the same type of professors that I did in college, it did indeed happen. I'm glad ( and relieved ) you didn't have to experience any similar professors of that particular mindset / thought process. My daughter ( 14 ) has also experienced similar such teachings from some of her middle school teachers, until I went and talked to them about it.

Sounds like you and I are of a similar age, we just don't see eye to eye on everything, I have no real issues with that, that's just the way it is.

The way your daughter was treated is inexcusable, nothing can be said about it...as a father myself, I wouldn't have been very happy, as I am sure you were not either!

The case for the left- wing media could be, that it is much of what is not, what you think of as right-wing media. I don't live under a rock, as you don't either, lets just be honest here, most of what is considered the right wing media is Rush, Fox, etc, etc, and most of the Network media ABC, NBC, NPR is thought of as the exact opposite by people on the other side. That's the way it's evolved, two opposing sides using the mediums they can, to get out their viewpoints to the populace...propaganda from both sides trying to persuade people one way or another to their line of thinking. I find the constant, unending bickering from both sides quite depressing at times actually. Me personally, I just want a less obtrusive, less controlling government, that follows more closely the republic we were set up to be...I think that's fairly simple, and I think a good percentage of Americans feel the same way and believe the Fed Gov has just become too over reaching, too powerful and too obtrusive.

I'm so sorry to hear your now a lawyer, I can't think of a much worse fate, for any human being to become, then another one of those ( JK...well a little ) LOL Good luck with your practice!
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:31 pm

Maximus1 wrote:
The case for the left- wing media could be, that it is much of what is not, what you think of as right-wing media. I don't live under a rock, as you don't either, lets just be honest here, most of what is considered the right wing media is Rush, Fox, etc, etc, and most of the Network media ABC, NBC, NPR is thought of as the exact opposite by people on the other side.
My opinion is that Rush, Fox, etc., are far right, most of the rest of the mainstream media is moderate right, and MSNBC and NPR are moderate. The only liberal media in my view is Air America.

Quote :
I'm so sorry to hear your now a lawyer, I can't think of a much worse fate, for any human being to become, then another one of those ( JK...well a little ) LOL Good luck with your practice!
I do criminal defense, in any event, not product liability or medical malpractice or any of the other usual targets of "tort reform."

Lawyer jokes or wisecracks don't bother me, because there are a lot of unscrupulous lawyers out there. There are unscrupulous everything, but lawyers can do much greater harm with their unscrupulousness than a plumber can.

As I wrote before, as long as we continue as we have (i.e., no personal attacks or name-calling), we're golden.

Regarding liberal and conservative professors, my favorite class in law school (Income Tax) was taught by a conservative Christian professor. We knew that about him, but he never made an issue of it in class. There were also liberal professors who made no issue of their politics in class.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:32 pm

Oh politics and its prefunctory particulars! Fear is the feeling which pervades current political discussion.

Fear of what?

Fear of losing one's own identity.

Have no fear my fellow Americans, you needn't define yourself by the machinations of your health care. Instead, define yourself by your willingness to simply care. The need to house the homeless, clothe the naked, feed the hungry, tend to the sick, console the greiving and the imprisoned precedes the current heath care affair by so many millennia since time immemorial.

Define yourself by opportunity. Suffering is quantifiable. It begins and ends with every human being in existence. It is an opportunity for the best of us to show how compassionate we can be.

Our identity is created by how we define ourselves. We define ourselve by what we value most. Will you be a slave of politics or a slave of compassion?

Which do you value most?


Last edited by z.o.o. on Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I misspelled millennia.)
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:33 pm

zoo, stop doing drugs.

Well, since politics are beign discussed, i'll just go away and say that i'm Extreme-left and Extreme-progressive.

But since the topic is the internal politics of other country, i'll just go away and say that i don't give a damn Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Socialist America?   Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:35 pm

ThePhilosopher wrote:
zoo, stop doing drugs.

Well, since politics are beign discussed, i'll just go away and say that i'm Extreme-left and Extreme-progressive.
Me, too.

Quote :
But since the topic is the internal politics of other country, i'll just go away and say that i don't give a damn Razz
Damn Commie. albino
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