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 Clan Change - Warriors of Set

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Should we change the clan or keep it the same?
Change them to the Warriors of Set
23%
 23% [ 3 ]
Keep them regular Followers of Set
77%
 77% [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 13
 

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Zer0Morph
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PostSubject: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:20 am

I was sitting around my lonely little apartment thinking about the most awesome and bestest discipline in the whole wide world!!!! POTENCE! And I was thinking, only 1 clan in TFN has it so if I want it, I have to be Osebo.

Then I started funneling through Vampire Wiki and a beautiful piece of knowledge lay starring at me, right before my eyes. I had no idea that the Followers of Set have a bloodline called the Warriors of Set which are basically the same, except they trade in Obfuscate for Potence. This brought a huge smile to my face.

You see, TFN has too many Obfuscate clans and not enough Potence clans. This would solve both problems in one swoop. The only problem is the lore, the Warrior Setite line must be "trained" to know Potence instead of Obfuscate, so how do we get around that?

What do you guys think of this change for TFN 1.4?

Edit: Can you imagine playing a Setite in Apep's Semblance form using Potence?!?! HAHAHA, how fucking cool would that be?!?! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:16 am

well, the name of the game IS Bloodlines, and ignoring a minor chunk of lore for an improved game balance sits well with me.
Just make sure you also update that auto-level list. tongue
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:24 am

malak wrote:
well, the name of the game IS Bloodlines, and ignoring a minor chunk of lore for an improved game balance sits well with me.
Just make sure you also update that auto-level list. tongue

HAHA I promise I will. There's actually quite a few things I'll need to adjust, like the clan description, the  Abilities and Attributes descriptions, the "Learn about the new clans" page, auto-level, and that's just in game. Then I have to update all of our webpages, etc... It's going to be a pain but I think it will be worth it.

Edit: I just realized another great thing about this change. I can finally remove the Obfuscate warning for Serpentis because the Warriors of Set can't use Obfuscate, SWEET!
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:55 am

Why don't you make the warriors a history within the Setite clan? Or set one or more of the Setite histories for warriors.
It is entirely possible to change disciplines via history. I can do the scripting for you.

Btw, you are too much of a Brujah if you think potence is the best discipline. Even if I play Brujah, I seldom use it.
Obfuscate on the other hand...
At least leave one "normal Setite" history for me. I don't require the Serpentis warning in Obfuscate.

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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:48 am

Yepp, I agree there. Don't remove the classic Setite overall if you can adjust it via the histories. This would be pretty awesome in my book too. Same could be done for Assamite the other way round though. So if someone wanted to play a classic Assamite within 1 or 2 histories he could change AUS to OBF.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:03 am

kyoden wrote:
Yepp, I agree there. Don't remove the classic Setite overall if you can adjust it via the histories. This would be pretty awesome in my book too. Same could be done for Assamite the other way round though. So if someone wanted to play a classic Assamite within 1 or 2 histories he could change AUS to OBF.

Ditto.
I am for Assamites and Setites having two variants through a history.
I know it is more work for you, but the awesomenesssss....

*sucks in a forked tongue*
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:36 am

Of course there is one problem with different disciplines selected by history:
You have to switch to a different clan and open the creation window before you can select a history with the other disciplines.
But I think this is a minor inconvenience compared to the options this allows.

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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:17 pm

So what I'm hearing is we can keep Viziers as the default Assamites and change Followers to Warriors as the default, but you want histories changing to the original Assamites and Warriors back to Followers?

If this can be done professionally then I'm all for it, regardless of how long it would take, but if it's clunky and looks poor then I don't want it in TFN. I'm more excited about finally getting balance in the disciplines 2 Potence 2 Obfuscate instead of 1 Potence 3 Obfuscate.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:57 pm

Yepp that sounds interesting. But Dominate!
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:17 pm

Let me describe the problem in more detail. Say you want to play a Setite. You select a Warrior history and open the sheet where the dots are placed. Then you decide that you prefer Obfuscate over Potence. So you go back to the clan selection sheet.
And here is the problem. If you just switch to a Follower history, the disciplines in the sheet don't change. So before you can use the Followr, you must select another clan, open the charactersheet for that character, and then return to Setite. Now the correct disciplines will show.

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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:53 pm

Childe of Malkav wrote:
Why don't you make the warriors a history within the Setite clan? Or set one or more of the Setite histories for warriors.
That would be great bounce .

Childe of Malkav wrote:
Btw, you are too much of a Brujah if you think potence is the best discipline. Even if I play Brujah, I seldom use it.
Obfuscate on the other hand...
Every time I play the childer of Troile I skip Potence lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:49 pm

Here's another issue we need to think about too. The histories are designed to shed light on the player's previous life, not determine which bloodline within a clan. So, how do we make all of that work together?
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:04 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:
Here's another issue we need to think about too. The histories are designed to shed light on the player's previous life, not determine which bloodline within a clan. So, how do we make all of that work together?
Well, make it
-history a, embraced as a Warrior
-history b, embraced as a Follower
-history c, embraced as a Follower
-history c, embraced as a Warrior...

and describe the distinction between the groups in the clan description.

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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:09 pm

Not a bad idea... here's another one.

The whole reason I went with a Vizier Assamite was because we already had 3 clans with Obfuscate, we didn't need one more. What if I permanently killed the Vizier and you could only be a regular Assamite, with Obfuscate instead of Auspex. We already have 2 more clans with Auspex. Then I would make the Warriors of Set a permanent thing. I wish I would've known about the Warriors from the get go honestly.

So it would look like this...
2 Clans - Potence
2 Clans - Auspex
3 Clans - Obfuscate

Does that sound fair? I have to admit, I don't like the idea of controlling bloodlines or disciplines through my beautiful and balanced history system. I'm trying to make this work without having to touch it.

Right now it looks like this...
1 Clan - Potence
3 Clans - Auspex
3 Clans - Obfuscate

So basically we're swapping Auspex for Potence, not Obfuscate.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:20 pm

Seems to be allright for the game in general, but not for me personally. Removing Obfuscate from the Setite means there is no clan left for me to play...

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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:28 pm

Childe of Malkav wrote:
Seems to be allright for the game in general, but not for me personally. Removing Obfuscate from the Setite means there is no clan left for me to play...

Out of all 7 TFN clans, the Followers of Set are the ONLY clan you enjoy? Yikes, was TFN that bad? scratch

What if you just put Obfuscate back, it's obviously very easy to do and takes 2 seconds.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:39 pm

To be honest, I don't like most of the new disciplines. And playing an Osebo or Ishtarri with only passive disciplines isn't that much fun either. So basically for me it's Follower or nothing...

And of course TFN is not bad. it's just that my taste is different from yours.

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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:46 pm

You usually want to create more options instead of removing them. Leaving 2-3 Obfuscate histories is key here as well as creating 2-3 Assamite Obfuscate histories.

Why? Because I just love to play my Assamite a certain way. Different players have different tastes. We only give them a playground to use. Its not up to us how they want to use them, but we should put all the possible toys into it. That doesn't neccessarily mean, that we would like to play with these toys as well.

----

Isn't there a workaround for the problem malkav described. I'm sure of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:58 pm

Here's the thing about me I have to explain (if you haven't already figured it out). I love 2 things about a mod, professionalism and consistency. If a mod adds new content or choices to a game and you can't distinguish what's vanilla and what's been modded, you're golden! If you notice a pattern across the board on how things are handled, and it's consistent, like systems, mechanics, textures, models, etc... you're golden!

But when mods don't have these 2 ingredients, I walk away from them no matter how good the 'good' parts of it are. Take Clan Quest Mod for example, and this is why Burgermeister and I went our separate ways. He did an AMAZING job with cut scenes, the storyline specific to the new clans, etc.... But as soon as I spoke to a new NPC and his mouth didn't move nor did he say a word, it was just dialogue, I cried a little. Now, if the whole game was that way, then you'd have consistency and it wouldn't be a problem, but it wasn't. 99% of the game had lip movements and sound dialogue, so you knew it was modded and added, and I'm not a fan of that.

So what's the point of this rant? Well, the fact that all the backgrounds fit a theme and are consistent with each other, makes Zer0 a happy camper, but if we added new histories for changed bloodlines and disciplines but didn't do this across the board to all 7 clans, I'd be a very sad Zer0. If you had to choose a different clan in order to go back and choose a new blood history, but only for Assamites and Setites, I would be a sad Zer0... why? Because it's not consistent.

I hope this makes sense why I don't like this idea. Professionalism and Consistency never trumps Options for the player, in my mind at least. If it can't be professional or consistent, I don't want it in TFN.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:27 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:

But when mods don't have these 2 ingredients, I walk away from them no matter how good the 'good' parts of it are. Take Clan Quest Mod for example, and this is why Burgermeister and I went our separate ways. He did an AMAZING job with cut scenes, the storyline specific to the new clans, etc.... But as soon as I spoke to a new NPC and his mouth didn't move nor did he say a word, it was just dialogue, I cried a little. Now, if the whole game was that way, then you'd have consistency and it wouldn't be a problem, but it wasn't. 99% of the game had lip movements and sound dialogue, so you knew it was modded and added, and I'm not a fan of that.

I think those were just a few characters BG didn't get VA for yet. Given all the characters he has gotten VOs for already, I would think that if he does release a new version of the mod(which I certainly hope so), those characters will get voices. It's likely he had the problem where most of the work for the quest was done, as was the character's dialogue, and it might have been a choice between having the quest available to do, or disabling it for this release until the voice work was done. Personally, I didn't have much of a problem with one or two characters not having voiced dialogue. What's funny is that I've seen quest mods for Oblivion(and I believe one or two I saw in a Let's Play for Skyrim), that had characters that where not voiced. Much as I don't mind it, the lack of VO can get rather, well, it makes any character that uses the "CM Partners" mod, rather lifeless, even if they have an interesting look to them, and a good story. Even other companion mods I've used has a similar problem, in that they might have a lot to say, but no one really saying it.

As for the topic, though...I do like the idea. However, given the fact that it is a Bloodline different from the main clan, perhaps having some item delivered to the mailbox(almost like the book that Baali get), which would allow the player to choose switch from Obfuscate to Potence. Although this would depend on if Disciplines can be switched through Python - and if they are any items that are free to use for this purpose. However, perhaps you only get it once you reach downtown, which would allow one to play the game a bit with Obfuscate, and choose if they wish to keep it, or if they want to stop hiding, and fight.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:50 pm

Maxus Corvin wrote:
As for the topic, though...I do like the idea. However, given the fact that it is a Bloodline different from the main clan, perhaps having some item delivered to the mailbox(almost like the book that Baali get), which would allow the player to choose switch from Obfuscate to Potence.

See now, I like this idea because it can be implemented professionally and my histories don't have to be messed with, while still remaining consistent to the rest of the game. Great idea, Maxus! Now the question is, can we script an item to remove a discipline and add a discipline.

If this were possible, I would do it right at the beginning of the game, not later. I would put the item I your apartment with big fat sparklies so nobody misses it.

My next question would be, could somebody exploit this item. For instance, when I need Potence, I use the item, when I need Obfuscate, I drop it. This would effectively give Setites 6 disciplines instead of 5.

Another idea I had would be learning an additional discipline from an NPC Kindred. The disciplines available to learn would be Potence, Fortitude, Celerity, Auspex, Presence, or Obfuscate. Could this be scripted also, and added into dialogue. I'm able to insert a python script into a piece of dialogue so that leaves us with, "Can a disciplines be added or removed via python".
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:00 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:

My next question would be, could somebody exploit this item. For instance, when I need Potence, I use the item, when I need Obfuscate, I drop it. This would effectively give Setites 6 disciplines instead of 5.

I'm not sure if the item can be made similar to the books, i.e having a "Use" option, although with this, an idea is that once you choose to use it, the item "breaks", or if it is a magical item(like if it is magically preserved blood from either your Sire or another Setite he or she knew, who might have been one of these Warriors - though I don't know if this works, lorewise), then the magic would be used up(as would the blood, as it would be gone). It might not have to disappear like the books do, but it would have to change in some way so it could not be used again.

So the item would perhaps have to be described as having a note close to it, which stresses that using this means that you are choosing to fight, choosing to avoid the shadows, and take up strength as your weapon of choice. But you could go through most of the game, and then decide to use it. Although, if this could be seen as an exploit, then perhaps the item's magic will only last so long, before it becomes worthless  - say if you don't use it before leaving Downtown for Hollywood, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:12 pm

I like the idea that the item is consumed, and it would be stupid for the player to invest XP into Obfuscate only to later start over with Potence, so I don't see that being an exploit.

Let's see what Malkav says being that he's the python god around here. I'll look into as well and see if I can find a way to do it. I like the idea of it being a blood item from an elder Warrior. From the description, a combination of blood and the ideology of Set can remove access to Obfuscate and add access to Potence, in the case with Warriors. So lore wise, it's not perfect, but close enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:38 pm

Yeah, I want Obsfucante 5 + Potence, because I will deal 3 times the damage when I break from the stealth.
Btw, Potence 5 + Melee 5 + Strenght 5 doesn't work, because Potence adds to the strenght atrb. Try P1+S5 instead.
The more you know...

Edit: ops, I read wrong! Well, I hope you don't do the obsfucate + potence combo disciplines '-'
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Change - Warriors of Set   Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:58 pm

Cretino wrote:
Edit: ops, I read wrong! Well, I hope you don't do the obsfucate + potence combo disciplines '-'

That was never an option, so you're good. Smile
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