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 Stealth Rework

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kyoden
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PostSubject: Stealth Rework   Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:41 am

I want this thread to be about the new stealth system. I use thos as an open workplace for myself and anyone who can help me with their knowledge.

So, I will list what I have in mind and what therefore needs to be done. I contacted Wesp if he could share his insight with Stealth as he did rework the original values.

-----------------------

I want the updated stealth system to be more of a challenge and support using stealth as a game mechanic you have to work for/with. It should not be a disciplineless Obfuscate. You should need to distract npcs, use the shadows properly, sneak past behind them and so on.

Things I need to do:

- get the stealth values in properly
- look for ways to give different NPCs ways to handle stealth detection better
- group perception bonuses (slight)
- out of sight penality
- more props to interact with (throwing bottles for distraction etc,...)
- point of interest fixes (you just cannot stealth past someone and type at the same keyboard while the npc is using that location without getting noticed. no matterhow god your stealth ist.)
- Alert State "Who's there" getting the modifiers
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kyoden
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Rework   Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:22 am

Is there a way to check the current light level I'm standing in via a console command? I have some guesses here, but need confirmation.
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Cretino
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Rework   Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:23 am

If only you could throw rocks...
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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Rework   Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:00 am

Cretino wrote:
If only you could throw rocks...

You can throw cans and bottles and stuff Smile
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Rework   Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:33 am

I can help you with what you call point of interest fixes.

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Zer0Morph
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Rework   Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:46 pm

The only thing I did for the Stealth system was lower the values to make it "harder" to stealth. I would check TFN's values vs. vanilla to see what I did. You can play with the values and make it even tougher but just make sure it's fair and viable to increase Stealth as a feat.

As far as light goes, pathing, etc... I've never played with that so I won't be much help at the moment. I am excited to see what you come up with though! bounce
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Cretino
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Rework   Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:02 pm

Stealth, as far as I can tell, is like blurring your character. The higher the fear, the more blurred and invisible you get, and silent as well. When you reach 10, you become a ghost.
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kyoden
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Rework   Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:26 pm

Actually, using stealth is like using stealth Smile You use your surroundings, viewing angles etc to hide yourself. Without any technical gadgets it is actually impossible to hide in plain corridor with not features while its it is completely lighted.

---

While we are at it. Is it possible to write a script that automatically detects the character if he pumps into someone?
There is a "physical" reaction from the models after all (they need to reroute, go into that "stop right there" mode, etc).

Maybe add a delay of 1-2 seconds or check for a feeding condition. But even a failed feed attempt should result in a detection.
If there is no direct way, what about letting them auto activate true sight (spriteless) for a second or two in near vicinity?

Bumping into someone should result in you beeing detected. At least if you do not back up immediately.


I try to corner and deal with certain stealth problems.

Zer0, Malkav, Wesp? Anything of this doable?
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Zer0Morph
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Rework   Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:18 pm

Well, as far as giving the NPCs "True Sight", this is possible unfortunately it also brings down the player's Obfuscate, it literally turns it off. So I don't think that would be a good idea.

On the other hand, you may want to look at the NPCs in a given map and play around with their "Inspection/Perception" levels. Also you can make NPCs MORE or LESS aware of their surroundings and make them look around more. This is all done in the map so you'll want to use VPKTool.exe located in \Vampire\Tools. This is how we uncompile, copy into notepad, copy back into VPKTool, and recompile the map with the new changes.

Look specifically for these attributes...
"allow_alert_lookaround" "1"
"pl_investigate" "-1"
"investigate_mode" "0"
"investigate_mode_combat" "0"
"full_investigate" "0"
"npc_perception" "3"
"vision" "-1"
"hearing" "1000.0"

Do you remember when I lowered the awareness of the tutorial shovelhead because he was so hard to sneak around after I changed the stealth detection? I did that by lowering his perception. By default, NPCs are at 3 but can go higher or lower.

Hope this information helps.
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Cretino
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Rework   Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:55 pm

I just thought of a counter stealth idea. Some enemies have a higher chance of detecting you. Currently, stealth decreases all detection range; I suggest to make the detection range the same, but enemies can detect you automatically if they are stronger than your stealth feat.

I mean, civilians and innocents would have 1 detection;
Thugs from the beach would have 2, 3 TOPS;
Tongs would have 6 or 7;
And so goes on.

Now, you walk into a bar, crouched (stealth level 3). As long as you don't TOUCH the thugs, as long you don't face the thugs face to face at 1~3 meters (they will go "someone there" mode and start patrolling), you will stroll the place peacefully. Now, the gangsta-life bro-thug from da city, A.K.A. The Boss has 9~11 detection. Why? So when you approach him, you can't Stealth-Kill.

Detection would be about 1 meters, someonethere 1.1~3 (must be in front of the enemy, as it is already), and light would increase Detection DISTANCE by 0.025 per % of the light bar filled (meaning, at 100%, they would detect you at 10 meters, or "very far away")
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kyoden
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Rework   Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:03 am

To be honest I don't really know excactly what you are saying. Also, please could you give me as much information about each statline you present (behind them in parantheses). I don't know how to chance all the stuff without breaking it.

So, if anything, what do these settings do. Good guesses about certain combinations are helpful as well.

"allow_alert_lookaround" "1"
"pl_investigate" "-1"
"investigate_mode" "0"
"investigate_mode_combat" "0"
"full_investigate" "0" - means what?
"npc_perception" "3" - does this set the NPC perception to a certain value? or act as a guideline how perceptive they are?
"vision" "-1" ???
"hearing" "1000.0" -distance measured in what? cm? m? inch? Is this alot or not?
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kyoden
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Rework   Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:14 pm

Also, could you tell me if there is a script which changes the behaviour of the final russian elite thug infront of Boris's room after you talked to him?

When I stealth him prior to that no reaction, but once I talked to him it becomes really problematic to stealth approach him.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Rework   Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:11 pm

kyoden wrote:
Also, could you tell me if there is a script which changes the behaviour of the final russian elite thug infront of Boris's room after you talked to him?

When I stealth him prior to that no reaction, but once I talked to him it becomes really problematic to stealth approach him.
Yes. Before you talk to him he is neutral, unless of course you made too much noise disposing of the other thugs. I'm not sure about this without checking, but I think if he refuses to let you in, he is set to hostile after the dialog.

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kyoden
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Rework   Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:48 am

I need more information. I kinda feel left alone with this thing. I have no experience nor clue about the modding tools whatsoever. Nor do I have programming skills. So, I NEED YOUR HELP when it comes down to the execution of things.

I try to understand the factors for stealth. There seem be done in more than one file instead of what was initially stated. The stealth file only describes how your stealth rating as well as the light source (light level) interact which each other. My guess is though that the programm and we the players have 2 different ideas of what a level 2 light source/area should look like or how intense that brightness is. Additionally there are the lines posted by Zer0 which obviously modify the behaviour and stuff of the NPCs on a certain map.

Zer0morph wrote:
"allow_alert_lookaround" "1"
"pl_investigate" "-1"
"investigate_mode" "0"
"investigate_mode_combat" "0"
"full_investigate" "0" - means what?
"npc_perception" "3" - does this set the NPC perception to a certain value? or act as a guideline how perceptive they are?
"vision" "-1" ???
"hearing" "1000.0" -distance measured in what? cm? m? inch? Is this alot or not?

I took these information about light sources from the tutorial map

sp_tutorial_1.bsp wrote:
"classname" "light"
"_light" "190 80 80 15"
"style" "0"
"_constant_attn" "0"
"_linear_attn" "0"
"_quadratic_attn" "1"
"_distance" "128"
"fade_time" "0.05"
"origin" "332.785 799.403 18"
}
{
"classname" "light_spot"
"_light" "130 168 232 100"
"style" "0"
"_constant_attn" "0"
"_linear_attn" "0"
"_quadratic_attn" "1"
"_distance" "128"
"angles" "-90 3.18772e-006 0"
"_inner_cone" "30"
"_cone" "50"
"_exponent" "1"
"pitch" "-90"
"fade_time" "0.05"
"origin" "332.785 795.403 12"

Which ones are these? I need to know what Light level 1 is or what the program expects it to be. If my assumption is correct, one way to make stealth "harder/more interesting" is basicly reducing the light level range. So far it is 0-10. When I crouch right next to a light source usually my light rating is at 2 (my stealth bar has about 2 tenth filled up). When I sit in complete darkness my stealth bar is a 0. Now, I found 1 spot so far which has light level 10 (the bound next to Hakeem).

What if we changed those value groups to basicly look like this? (basicly removing Light level 1-2 and clone them with some other levels)

Level 0 = 0
Level 1 = 3
Level 2 = 4
...
Level 6 = 9
Level 7 = 10
Level 8 = 10
Level 9 = 10
Level 10 = 10

I would like to change the values so that the Level 1 an 2 light areas behave more like a 3-4 as the game "thinks" most lighed areas to be less lighted than they actually look. The other option of course would be to change all the light sources throughout the game, but that sounds absurd. While looking at the code above though I see no value which indicates the direct light "strength".

The second stealth tables seem to describe a more point of view stealth approach. So, what happens if I am out of the actual viewing angle of the npc. I would want to slightly increase these values in benefit of the player and place some additional props to throw and distract. We then would have a little more sophisticated stealth system as approaching a guard that stands in an lighted area would be dumb. Distract him, wait for him to move around, etc. Maybe we might need to add some patrol routes for this to be even more appealing, but it sounds worthwhile. On that matter, would it be possible to by throwable items?
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Cretino
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Rework   Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:17 am

And I want feedback into my previous post too Neutral
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