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Karavolos
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PostSubject: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:57 pm

Chances are this has been asked before, but is there a chance to implement some manner of Diablerie function? Be it through combat or specific dialogues with certain NPCs; particularly if the Assamites are to become Warrior Caste I would like the function in some manner or form.
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:08 pm

I asked the same question years ago. I would want it too.
Sadly, it turns out the PC is stuck with 8th Generation for good. Sad
I vaguely remember Malkav giving me a lot of information why this is impossible.
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Karavolos
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:06 pm

I'm fine being 8th Gen, I'm thinking more on all those sexy Disciplines to mix-match What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:34 pm

THIS question again? Razz

Just kidding, I agree with the Assamite Vizier going away and the Warrior caste arriving, this IS something we should talk about again. I have a few questions that need answered before we begin.

1.) Diablerie is a no no, correct? So to implement this properly, lore-wise, this would have to happen in secret?
2.) This would have to be a special event exclusive to the Assamite character, and probably happen through dialogue. I see this only happening once in the game and would benefit the player. What kind of bonus would be lore appropriate?
3.) Diablerie is when you drain the blood of a higher generation vampire correct? What happens when you do that, you go up a generation or get some of their disciplines or what?

As of now, I'm keeping this idea open to possibilities, if we can come to an agreement with lore and it's technically possible, I could see a "special event" happening for the Assamite character only.

Baali already have their special event, the Salubri have their healing in dialogue, the Serpents have their dialogue charms, the Samedi have their special haven after defeating Edgar Hirst, but the Assamites don't have anything. Nor do the Osebo or Ishtarri.
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Karavolos
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:44 pm

As far as I'm aware:
Lower Generation diablerie will lower your Generation and make you more potent.
Higher Generation diablerie will not lower your Generation, but it will give the rush and potentially some power from the victim.
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:07 pm

Good to know. Turns out Assamite Warriors have a different weakness than the Viziers do, which means I will have to redesign the entire weakness system.

Warrior Caste Weakness: The Warrior Caste suffers from an addiction to vampire vitae and an aura stained by diablerie. Even if they have never actually engaged in diablerie, their aura shows their blood lust clearly.

I'm not exactly sure how to implement something like this.... any ideas? Maybe keep the Assamites as Viziers? Did you know that the Vizier's clan logo is different? I didn't realize that until today, I've been sporting the wrong clan logo this whole time for TFN. Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:09 pm

HAHA, I just had an idea. WHAT IF (and I know this would piss people off) but WHAT IF your Assamite character could ONLY drink Elder Vitae packs? LOL   Can you imagine? Or had to drink Elder Vitae packs every so often in order not to frenzy or possibly lose humanity? Talk about a crippling weakness.

Would something like this even be possible to script?
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Maxus Corvin
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:25 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:

1.) Diablerie is a no no, correct? So to implement this properly, lore-wise, this would have to happen in secret?

Depends. There are obvious cases where nobody cares(i.e the reason for the Giovanni's existence, or that of the Tremere[but they cared at first, i.e some lines in Redemption refer to it]), but in Camarilla cities, it severely depends on the situation. Random Kindred drinks another to death? They face their own final death. A perhaps valuable servant to the Prince does it? Maybe they will by technically pardoned for it, since this means the Prince has a more powerful ally(although it certainly is something that the Prince can hold over their head, if even slightly disobedient).

While possible, the real roadblock would depend on going with the obvious, in that if you would chose to diablerise another Vampire, LaCroix would perhaps mention it, although he has you in a precarious position already - you could die on any one of your "tasks", and it matters very little to him(although maybe less so once you go searching for the Sarcophagus), and if you had chosen the Aramanth, then he could easily slander your name with the fact. It certainly would add a bit more to the Blood Hunt, although perhaps in this case, maybe you would fight a few more Vampires than you would normally.

As for it happening it secret...well, it can. But anybody with Auspex who knows, will see it. I.e black lines/mist, etc on the otherwise purple aura.
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Karavolos
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:35 pm

Then again, we never quite know who has access to what. The Sheriff may not have Auspex at all depending on what he advances. Strauss, Isaac, Ash, V.V. and Akeem are the only other Auspex candidates for it to come naturally with (and Andrei but Sabbat). And if they know you're an Assamite, especially since your sire was apparently part of the Camarilla, maybe as a merc or Antitribu of sorts, then lots of people would overlook the streaks.
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:50 pm

Those are all good points guys. For the warrior caste, don't Auspex users see diablerie in their aura regardless if they've diablerized someone or not? So how could you tell who the real diablerists are and who aren't?
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Karavolos
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:09 pm

They can't, it's one of the reasons the Assamites are so feared; along with the fact that they are good at killing Vampires. One of two things usually happen when an Assamite who doesn't wanna kill you is involved: either you try to rid them or you're hiring them.
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:15 pm

Karavolos wrote:
They can't, it's one of the reasons the Assamites are so feared; along with the fact that they are good at killing Vampires. One of two things usually happen when an Assamite who doesn't wanna kill you is involved: either you try to rid them or you're hiring them.

Are Assamite Viziers also feared the same way the Warrior caste is? I wouldn't think too many kindred would worry about Viziers as much considered they're obsessed with whatever knowledge they pursue and probably don't even worry about the Jyhad or try to get hired for assassination jobs.
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Karavolos
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:34 pm

Technically when people speak of the dreaded Assamite assassins they speak of the Warrior Caste. Most however aren't aware there is a caste system in the first place however hence they consider all Assamites diablerizing assassins that are out for blood. But sure, even someone who does know of them probably make damn sure to keep the Viziers and Sorcerers at a distance because Warriors or not, their Clan-culture still encourage diablerie of non-Assamites to raise your potency and capacity to serve Alamut.
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malak
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:52 pm

This is one of the few additions I would rather keep out of bloodlines. Also, Amaranth is more than eating their vitae, it is doing that and then CONTINUING SO THAT YOU SUCK THEIR SOUL OUT!
1) all the mechanics. (generation, bloodpool, gained skillpoints/disciplines, etc.)
2) HOW does a week old childe manage to overpower an established Vampire? (remember, suck all blood, THEN start willpower checks. some nasty results for failing. Even if your victim is in torpor it ain't easy to win that one.)
3) NPC reactions. for this reason I could see it ONLY for Warrior Assamites.
4) who would we kill? Pisha? Brutus? Ash? Andrei? Brother Kanker? I could see either the sheriff or LaCroix, with some rewriting of the end scenes, even without dialog. Makes flipping to bird to Rodriguez mean something more, doesn't it? Unless you open it up to the blood hunt or sabbat lairs, it needs an NPC. If you do open it up to normal combat, then it becomes almost meaningless.

If you can find a way to do it that satisfies lore and is professional, then I could get behind it. But that project seems so daunting I don't really consider it worthwhile.

Also, don't forget the humanity loss!
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:18 pm

Malak serves a good point and I was wondering if someone would eventually point this out. He mentioned two words that make my ears perk up, "Professionalism" and "Lore". I agree that diablerie must have both of these elements before I'll even continue touching it, and I also agree with Malak that it has to be a special event, not just a "diablerie in passing during combat" kind of thing.

In all honesty though, the more I think about it, the more I'm leaning on keeping the Assamite as a Vizier.
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Karavolos
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:28 pm

Sadly my creative moments are limited indeed. Perhaps keeping them as Viziers is for the best; they are fleshed out already in terms of pros/cons and we already have Samedi and Baali to cover Obfuscate.
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:27 pm

Karavolos wrote:
Sadly my creative moments are limited indeed. Perhaps keeping them as Viziers is for the best; they are fleshed out already in terms of pros/cons and we already have Samedi and Baali to cover Obfuscate.

I have to agree with you on this.

Anyone else?
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Karavolos
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:54 pm

You sound so forced about it. "Guess I'm agreein' with Karavolos; the depths I sink to".
Actually sounds like something I imagine Malkav would say What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:13 am

I just want something simple. If the ingame description pro/con is lenghty, I won't read and/or play said character. Sometimes I just want to powergame, y'know. And the pro/cons you're looking for stray too far from a game perspective. Which is "rules you adhere to beat the game".
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kyoden
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:10 am

To be honest, Viziers are rather scarce. A very few people outside of the clan would know that Viziers really exist. Meeting one is something completely different though (especially knowingly as a vizier).
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MxM
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:20 am

Zer0Morph wrote:
Karavolos wrote:
Sadly my creative moments are limited indeed. Perhaps keeping them as Viziers is for the best; they are fleshed out already in terms of pros/cons and we already have Samedi and Baali to cover Obfuscate.

I have to agree with you on this.

Anyone else?
I agree about keeping them as Viziers, implementing something like Diablerie would be difficult and not very realistic if the pc want to stay "alive" after meeting with Strauss or any Auspex-using agent of the Prince (or simply Camarilla). Furthermore the first level of Quietus would be made useless by Obfuscate.
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:27 am

MxM wrote:
Zer0Morph wrote:
Karavolos wrote:
Sadly my creative moments are limited indeed. Perhaps keeping them as Viziers is for the best; they are fleshed out already in terms of pros/cons and we already have Samedi and Baali to cover Obfuscate.

I have to agree with you on this.

Anyone else?
I agree about keeping them as Viziers, implementing something like Diablerie would be difficult and not very realistic if the pc want to stay "alive" after meeting with Strauss or any Auspex-using agent of the Prince (or simply Camarilla). Furthermore the first level of Quietus would be made useless by Obfuscate.

Not to mention the Tremere have rituals for detecting Diablerists and are real paranoid around Assamites. Doubly so around Warriors. No Warrior Assamite PC would have left the Chantry without sipping from Max's wrists or dying for good...
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:04 am

(repost from another thread as it really fits this one as well)

Actually, Assamites had another clan weakness. They were cursed by the Tremere that Kindred Blood actually would damage them. This curse was broken by Ur-Shulgi during the Final Nights. Ur-Shulgi totally changed the clan with his appearance. The question is if you want to play before or after the final nights. In theory both is possible (I know the name ... TFN). The curse was that they actually would take damage when they did drink blood blood/diablerize another (camarilla) kindred. So either go that route or

totally ignore lore

or

It could also have social Problems. I know that there are different reaction with the NPCs depending on your clan (checking through the npc sheets while searching for sneak answers). What they do, I do not know though.

Diablerie is feared (even more than pure destruction). Diablerie is used as a way to subdue or to gain boons. LaCroix certainly wouldn't allow the "fledgling" which he let live due to political reasons survive a diablerie. Yes, Diablerie can be detected via Auspex, but it is rather difficult (3 Succ/Diff 8 ) iirc. The scourge (not the Sheriff) usually kills vampires. He is therefore feared. For example he has the right to kill anyone who breaks tradition of hospitality (beeing in the city unannounced, etc). Usually the 6th Tradition: Destruction forbids the destruction of other kindred unless allowed by elders (aka the Prince - or ruling equivalent). While this is handeled somewhat differently in Bloodlines, we still should try to be lore correct as possible. Unless you want to have SubZero in your game that is bounce

Adding diablerie out of context is hard. It should result in a major plot and might be the story of a game on its own. Please don't add something like diablerie easily. This is the reason why the Sabbat and (the former) Assamites are so feared. They (Assamites) even where cursed by the Tremere so they couldn't diablerize any more. Also, keep in mind, that one of the reasons the Camarilla was formed was to protect themselves from diablerizing anarchs. They needed the numbers. A law system that has the jurisdication, power and integrity to do so. While the elders each want and pursue their own power of course they needed a safe zone to work from as it kinda hinders when someone always tries to suck you dead.

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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:39 pm

Karavolos wrote:
You sound so forced about it. "Guess I'm agreein' with Karavolos; the depths I sink to".
Actually sounds like something I imagine Malkav would say What a Face

Yes, agreeing with Karavolos is something I strive not to do, but in this case, I guess you were right, LOL. Just kidding! No, really I thought what you said made sense, sincerely.  Cool

After reading the additional posts after the one Karavolos made, especially Kyoden's most recent post, it would make sense to not switch from Vizier to Warriors. Not to mention what MxM said about making level 1 Quietus useless. I also like the fact that only 2 clans now have Obfuscate, not 3. Obfuscate is a very unique discipline so when almost half of the clans in TFN had it, Obfuscate lost some of its charm.

So now we have the disciplines balanced like this...
3 - Auspex
2 - Obfuscate
2 - Potence

I like this balance, it makes sense. Hopefully more people will try out the Samedi now that Setites don't have Obfuscate anymore. Not to mention I hated how similar Baali and Setites were before the change. They both had Presence and Obfuscate and both were charming corruptor clans. Now that the Setites are more physical and brutal, it brings more attention to the Baali making them more unique.

You have the Osebo, straight up physical and brutal, then you have the opposite end of the spectrum with the Baali, quiet corrupters, and now you have the middle ground with the Setites who can really go either way or a blend of both. They have the +1 Persuasion and Serpentis and Presence discipline, but also have Potence and can shapeshift into Apep's Semblance if you want to go the melee route. They really are a versatile clan now. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:21 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:
THIS question again? Razz

Just kidding, I agree with the Assamite Vizier going away and the Warrior caste arriving, this IS something we should talk about again. I have a few questions that need answered before we begin.

1.) Diablerie is a no no, correct? So to implement this properly, lore-wise, this would have to happen in secret?
2.) This would have to be a special event exclusive to the Assamite character, and probably happen through dialogue. I see this only happening once in the game and would benefit the player. What kind of bonus would be lore appropriate?
3.) Diablerie is when you drain the blood of a higher generation vampire correct? What happens when you do that, you go up a generation or get some of their disciplines or what?

As of now, I'm keeping this idea open to possibilities, if we can come to an agreement with lore and it's technically possible, I could see a "special event" happening for the Assamite character only.

Baali already have their special event, the Salubri have their healing in dialogue, the Serpents have their dialogue charms, the Samedi have their special haven after defeating Edgar Hirst, but the Assamites don't have anything. Nor do the Osebo or Ishtarri.


1) Yes but people with auspex will know.
2) I don't see anyone talking and agreeing to be cannibalized.
3) Lower, not higher. You can diablerize either tho, but you gain only benefits in power as far as Assamites go if you drain someone with a smaller number (aka, lower).

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