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 New Presence system in TFN 1.4

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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:52 pm

Of course, but will Lacroix be smart enough to notice he's being fucked up with ?

"I think that even if the player is not sure who's an elder and who's not, they would still know that using presence against the Prince or the Primogens is... unwise."
Agreed, but they don't know about Strauss the first time (I mean calling him Max is totally more rude than trying to influence him... if he notices :p maybe the PC is just real charming). What about Nines? Nine's a nobody. Sure he'd call you out on using Presence on him. Jack too. Damsel too, but I don't think she would notice, would she?
But for sure by the end you know Jack's the oldest and more powerful :p

What about the Nossies? Gary would resist it and probably Imalia, but how would the PC know it ? Nothing says Gary's isn't just a minion :p

Beckett would know about it because he's probably the sanest of them all...

VV may notice but enjoy it, maybe?

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Zer0Morph
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:36 pm

You guys figure it out and let me know what to do. I'm not a lore expert but logically speaking I think Claudia has the strongest argument of anyone.

1.) How would the player know who to extend their supernatural charisma on, and who not too.
2.) Does the player even know when they're extending that supernatural charisma or does it come naturally? You aren't spending blood when using it in dialogue (as opposed to using it for combat purposes) so I meant for it to be a natural usage of it, from the players perspective. That's how I designed it in the first place.

I still subscribe to the idea of "Regular users of Presence practice it so often that it becomes a natural act and they don't even know they're doing it." Remember, this is Presence 3-5, not 1 or 2. These are Presence users that have chosen to really hone their skills with it, a specialist if you will. At some point, you become so skilled with it that it becomes a part of who you are with little to no effort at all. The only time I even require blood to be spent is in a combat scenario.
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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:47 pm

Here we enter the debate whether someone who is charming is naturally a good seducer and does sled ice unwillingly or is it a conscious act to do the verb seduce.

I'd say :
- have it on at all times on everyone
- some characters will call you out on it (Damsel may not notice presence 3, but God like adoration of presence 5 should trigger her survival instincts... Especially if she's still in the "I don't like you" mod!).
- some won't change their behavior (they just don't care), like Beckett.


Those who call out on it, have the choice in future conversations to "make an effort not to affect them by presence", or to say "this is all natural baby !" Ish xD


Pen and paper presence is always a conscious effort to activate tho :3


Now again is this feasible in the game ? I dunno.

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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:50 pm

Well that's how I'd do it if it were my mod I meant :3 again I'm just opening the can of worms for you guys to discuss paradigm choices


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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:11 pm

Well I built the Presence system based off the idea that high level Presence users do it subconsciously without effort or knowledge. If this breaks lore then I'll have to redesign it. I'm not a lore nerd though and think of the system from the standpoint that this is a video game, not a pnp game.
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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:42 pm

It doesn't break lore because presence in bloodlines is "passive buff", while in pen and paper it's a social discipline. Level 4 allows you to call someone and that person just "comes" to you as fast as they can, and level 5 has everyone adoring you in fear love and respect.

You're not breaking lore Wink

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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:02 pm

Claudia wrote:
You're not breaking lore Wink

Thanks Claudia, that's what I needed to know. In that case I can leave it how it is or simply change the message to use the word "unaffected" instead of "resisted". How would that sound to everyone?
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kyoden
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:35 pm

I'm not saying Claudia is wrong, I just would vote for my passive version as it is somewhat lore friendly to what presence is and a very easy one to do. Again, we (the character) do not know alot about the world we were thrown in and while our powerlevel (and generation) are way too strong for the time played. (not going into the detail here too much, but the 8th Generation thing is sooo way off. Our sire would have been 7th gen. This is already very very powerful and any clan member should try to help him. We are playing bloodlines, so we might not have allies within the city, but still. Akeem, would certainly know about another vizier in his city, especially at 7th Gen. And our sire would certainly not make such a stupid mistake (I know intriques happen) *rant stop*

The disciplines in Bloodlines are so way off anyways (which isn't my point here). So, it is within limits to change them abit, but still feel like the real disciplines somehow. How Presence and especially Dominate could be resisted was soo different during each edition. Presence 4 (Calling) is so overpowered rules wise that most vampires would have been killed by now if used properly. But let us not go that route.

If I would play bloodlines now, and maybe have heard about the vampire rpg and stuff. But not really knowing how everything works it still would bug me if the message would pop up and tell me that it was resisted. It feels like I have done something wrong. Like maybe I missed some options now. IS he mad at me etc. The whole "not affected" phrase feels way much smoother without bending/breaking the lore much more. Its a flexible, quick solution which might leave the player with some questions (why is he not affected), but in my book this adds to the flair instead of destroying it. After all we are discussing this point for quite some time now. Some effects and disciplines are up for interpretations. Lets settle on something playable that is not comeplety off the original.
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:00 pm

@Kyoden,

So you're voting for "Unaffected" instead of "Resisted", got it. I think a few others will vote the same way so unless I hear a solid argument on "Resisted", we'll end up going to "Unaffected".

Maybe something like "NPC is unaffected by your Presence". And then remove the particle and sound FX. How would that sound?

My biggest concern was simply not having anything happen with the Elders while weaker kindred and kine get to use it in dialogue. Not informing the player that they even attempted it seemed broken and missing. So I at least want a message to be displayed for the Elders explaining why it's not working on them but works on others.
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:05 pm

I changed it tonight so when you speak to any of the elders on our list, you won't see the Presence particles or sound play. The message you get is "NPC is unaffected by your Presence".

Does that suit everyone?
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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:20 pm

Is good for me

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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:29 am

"Not affected" is fine. Personally I wouldn't have even bother deactivating it for certain NPCs, but whatever.

Eliza wrote:
I'm probably the only person who finds stuff like this interesting

No, you are not.
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:18 am

I think it's fine, too.

I also happen to agree with kyoden. If I get a message that somebody's constantly resisting my spells (disciplines in this case), I would go to Google and look for an answer as to what I'm doing wrong. Unaffected is a lot more neutral from a player perspective.

As for Claudia's argument, I cannot say I agree on a 100%. Yeah, it would be awesome to have every NPC react differently to your Presence, but we don't have the modding power, engine, voice actors and what not to make such a project. That's why we tried to find a more global, although not as pnp, option to exclude elders, in order to preserve lore accuracy to some extent.

Also I believe that you're not giving too much credit to the player. I knew the NPCs powerful enough to kick my ass the first time I played Bloodlines and knew nothing about World of Darkness. It's not that hard to learn things and besides, leveling up presence 3-5 would ideally require you to have progressed in the game to some extent.

To wrap it up, I think that Zer0 made a good decision today!
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:12 am

YamiRaziel wrote:


To wrap it up, I think that Zer0 made a good decision today!

Agreed.
*puts a paw of approval*
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:08 am

Feral wrote:
YamiRaziel wrote:


To wrap it up, I think that Zer0 made a good decision today!

Agreed.
*puts a paw of approval*

You guys are making it sound like a special achievement. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:12 am

Lol I'm just here to give food for thought :3 the feasibility in code and stuff, not my area :3

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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:26 pm

Dragatus wrote:
You guys are making it sound like a special achievement. Very Happy

Zer0Morph actually making a good decision IS a special achievement! HAHAHAHA! Razz

Thanks guys, glad to know I finally did something right! I love you
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:56 pm

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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:02 pm

^^^^^ LOL lol!
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:20 am

Hillarious. lol!
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