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 New Presence system in TFN 1.4

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MxM
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:05 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:
MxM wrote:
Presence can be resisted with willpower but even other kindred could not realize when you are using on them, contrary to Dominate. Presence is not different to being charismatic. I think you can use it on every kindred in the game

I made a list, so you're saying take everyone off of it except the taxi driver and those on the telephone or television (Mandarin).
According to whitewolf wikia Presence can work also on elder vampire so yes. It's like Potence as you don't stop being strong you don't stop being charismatic. So yes IMO you should take every one off the list except the taxi drive, Jimmy Reed but I'm not sure about the Mandarin as he actually sees you scratch
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:32 pm

Hm.. I think we need more opinions on this. Can somebody check the 20th anniversary edition of VTM?

Maybe the lore people can shed some light. I don't trust whitewolf wiki as much as the books.
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:41 pm

Here's the thing guys, I'm literally sitting here at work building this, that's why I want to know asap. Maybe I'll just add it to everyone but the following.

So don't add Presence to the following characters
Taxi Driver
Jimmy Reed
Bach (No reason to add it to him)
Mandarin on the TV
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:04 pm

I would go with Malks list? Why, because its sometimes wise not to use it. If some whelp would come up to me and use presence on me (As a follower of set, toreador and whatnot ... I kinda have a slight idea what presence does) And yes. Presence is not that obvious. Actually using it, is obvious and if you try to entrance someone and he gets knowledge of it, usually is not something you want to do. Pissing of a Primogen of a city? Great idea ....

"Hey Lacroix, you wanted to kill me. Nearly did, how do you like beeing presenced by me? Naw, I'm just really really charismatic. Cool ey, lets hang out some time. Cheers"

You are a fledling. Not a master of the arts which has used them for centuries. You just used them on a few occations. You probably dont even know how to act within the kindred society. Basicly, you are a joke. A joke beeing used. Not some wise elder. You better not fuck with certain people.

Presence 2 (scaring them) is actually a Masquerade Breach (because you show your fangs). I dare you if anyone would use Presence in an Elysium and I would know about it. The Elysium is a place of safety and comfort and usually no discipline is allowed (a few exceptions allowed from domain to domain, as well as certain individuals who are allowed such things).

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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:09 pm

Well I keep getting conflicting answers from people so I'm going to put Presence on everyone except...

Taxi Driver
Jimmy Reed
Bach (No reason to add it to him)
Mandarin on the TV

You guys talk about it...

*goes back to modding*
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:16 pm

I've checked the 20th edition and it does say that both Kindred and Kine are affected, however:

1. Weak vampires or equal vampires (with 3 generations difference can overcome the effect by spending 1 will point every scene - depends on successes).
2. Vampires with 3 generations or more lower than the player can spend 1 will point to overcome the entire effect for the whole night without rolling a dice.

In my opinion there are a couple of ways to do this.
1. Disable the option for all elder vampires entirely - it will be stupidity to even try using it, as they will notice and will remember!
2. Using it on vampires of equal power should be a risk. If it affects them we're fine, but if it fails... that's a problem cause they'll know we've tried.

Now I'm not sure what generation the player is supposed to be... I've heard he's about 8th generation. If that's true only vampires which 5 generation or lower will be able to easily dismiss the effect. I don't think that's true however, I believe the player should be about 12 or 13th generation... probably.

According to Bloodlines wiki, Smiling Jack is 10th generation and he's 400 hundred years old, making him one of the oldest vampires and true elders in LA. According to Wiki, he knows Thaumaturgy... what?
Beckett is 7th generation, but 100 years younger than Jack.

All the rest would possibly be 10th generation tops (the elders) maybe with the exception of the Sheriff.

Most of the vampires shouldn't be able to throw off the effect easily...

Any thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:19 pm

I change my mind, I'm going to add Presence to only those on the list below, and let you guys keep talking about it.

None Presence NPCs
Taxi Driver
All telephone and television dialogue
Bach (No reason to add it to him)
LaCroix
Ming Xiao

I just read your post YamiRaziel above this one, you guys keep discussing it but I'm sticking to this list until a consensus is made.
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Here's my list Zer0:

No Presence usage
Taxi Driver, All phone and television dialogues, Bach, La Croix, Smiling Jack, Beckett, Strauss, Gary, Nines (he already likes you anyway), Therese, Bertram, Isaac, The Sheriff

These are the elders of the city and it will be unwise to try and upset them.

Ming Xiao, Andrei, Pisha, Jezabel Locke, Bishop Vick should be presenced as you don't care about them as much and you can either try to present yourself as friendlier or scarier. It makes sense that you would use it as you're ready to kick their asses at any point.

Presence shouldn't be usable on any Ventrue, Follower of Set, Brujah or Toreador of equal generation as they would know it. Except if they're of very high generation.

So any Malkavian, Gangrel, Nosferatu or Tremere of around 12/13 generation should be presenced as they wouldn't know of this discipline. Same goes for all humans, ghouls or thin-bloods.

I suggest that presence can be used for some NPC such as Damsel as she's too big of an idiot to recognize it in my opinion. Plus she is of high generation and young vampire age. Thus if possible you can implement presence dialogue options to make her like you again if she gets angry at you.
This can be made for other NPCs that can like/dislike you depending on your choices and are of high generation.

I've read the the player should be 8th generation but that seems a bit too much in my opinion. 10th generation, however, would explain why the character is growing in power so fast. Given more time the player should surpass the likes of Gary, Therese, Isaac or Nines.
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:58 pm

Okay cool... let's see some other comments before deciding. I just finished every map with an NPC that has dialogue and I added Presence to all of them except...

Taxi Driver
All telephone and television dialogue
Bach
LaCroix
Ming Xiao

Let's see some other opinions now.
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:52 pm

I wonder, if for partial lulz and immersion in the game, that perhaps the Presence option could be implemented, but the Elder will kind of notice the attempt and give a remark along the lines of "Not gonna work." kind of like with Therese and an attempt to Dominate/Serpentis her?

Although this is more modding work for Zero and doesn't have to be done. The official list Zero has posted sounds fine enough, perhaps adding Strauss because unlike Lacroix who can only kill you if you breach the Masq too much or send you on a suicide mission, Strauss has Thaumaturgy and let's be honest. He can kill the Fledgeling via "It's magic, I don't need to explain shit".
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:43 pm

I did some research of my own when I got home and found what YamiRaziel posted was accurate and so I began digging around. It seems his list was pretty spot on too so I'm going to make Presence not affect the following NPCs. I'll put Ming Xiao back so she will be affected again.

No Presence usage
Taxi Driver
All phone and television dialogues
Bach
La Croix
Smiling Jack
Beckett
Strauss
Gary
Nines (he already likes you anyway)
Therese
Bertram
Isaac
Akeem
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:37 am

I'm happy to help, Zer0. When the lore-masters stumble upon this thread, they'll give us their blessing... or make us change things Razz
For now, I think we're good.

What about the suggestion I have for Damsel for example and any other NPCs like her?

You make a bad choice (get undesired response) and get a presence line to get on her good side again. We can use her good side dialogues again, as if we hadn't made the decisions that make her mad (but we actually did). The game can make a roll to check where we pass or fail the discipline... Does it sound interesting and more importantly... possible?
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:39 am

It sounds complicated and messy, and lots of time and work and something that would create bugs. I'm sorry... Embarassed

I'm actually having a huge issue right now with the last tiny piece of my dream to become reality. Everything works exactly how it should EXCEPT I can't get the particle hud emitter to play the particles if you start the dialogue in 3rd person view. It works great if you start dialogue in 1st person but if you begin in 3rd, and then let the game put you in first person for dialogue, you won't see the hud particles.

You still hear the sound, get the bonus, and the message at the top of the screen, just no particles. Is that a big deal do you think?
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:35 am

It depends what particles are we talking about. I'm one of those gamers that always plays in 3rd person. The first person of Bloodlines... I don't know how people put up with that. The walking is beyond horrible.
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:59 am

Ah, dang. I kinda hoped Claudia would take this one, as I just finished my exams and am heading home to visit my parents over the weekend. Zer0, the speed at which you are making decisions about lore-stuff is definitely too fast for me to keep up with. (Besides, I'm not quite as well-versed on Presence at the top of my head, so I'd have to do some reading on that discipline.)
Anyway, YamiRaziel got it right mostly, though I would disagree with allowing Presence on Ming Xiao. I don't know whether Kuei-jin have a special resistance to it, but from what the player knows, she's the leader of the Kuei-jin in LA and thus, an equal in power to LaCroix (we can safely assume this is the case, whether it's true or not). So if it's a bad idea to mess with LaCroix, who would probably not instantly ash you - Camarilla laws and all - it should also be a bad idea to mess with Ming Xiao, as she isn't bound by anything and could dispose of you without blinking if you annoy her. (Keep in mind, this is from an in-character point of view - we know you can bust her ass later on, but at that moment, you should want to play your cards right since you don't know just how powerful she is exactly.)

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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:17 am

Eliza wrote:
Ah, dang. I kinda hoped Claudia would take this one, as I just finished my exams and am heading home to visit my parents over the weekend. Zer0, the speed at which you are making decisions about lore-stuff is definitely too fast for me to keep up with. (Besides, I'm not quite as well-versed on Presence at the top of my head, so I'd have to do some reading on that discipline.)
Anyway, YamiRaziel got it right mostly, though I would disagree with allowing Presence on Ming Xiao. I don't know whether Kuei-jin have a special resistance to it, but from what the player knows, she's the leader of the Kuei-jin in LA and thus, an equal in power to LaCroix (we can safely assume this is the case, whether it's true or not). So if it's a bad idea to mess with LaCroix, who would probably not instantly ash you - Camarilla laws and all - it should also be a bad idea to mess with Ming Xiao, as she isn't bound by anything and could dispose of you without blinking if you annoy her. (Keep in mind, this is from an in-character point of view - we know you can bust her ass later on, but at that moment, you should want to play your cards right since you don't know just how powerful she is exactly.)

Yeah, that does make sense. Thanks, Eliza.
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:17 pm

YamiRaziel wrote:
It depends what particles are we talking about. I'm one of those gamers that always plays in 3rd person. The first person of Bloodlines... I don't know how people put up with that. The walking is beyond horrible.
Agreed.

Zer0, if you're talking about the 1st person player particles, I'd be happy not to have them when I start the dialog from 3rd person view. I hate these particles. One reason why I never use presence or auspex for ranged combat.

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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:31 pm

Childe of Malkav wrote:
YamiRaziel wrote:
It depends what particles are we talking about. I'm one of those gamers that always plays in 3rd person. The first person of Bloodlines... I don't know how people put up with that. The walking is beyond horrible.
Agreed.

Zer0, if you're talking about the 1st person player particles, I'd be happy not to have them when I start the dialog from 3rd person view. I hate these particles. One reason why I never use presence or auspex for ranged combat.

Well we may be in luck then, I found out that if you start out the dialogue in 3rd person view, the particles don't play automatically, however if you press your "Change View" button while in dialogue, you can switch views from 3rd person to 1st person which plays the particles. Now, we all know while in dialogue it's always in 1st person view, however the game still thinks your in 3rd person if that's how you started the conversation, so effectively you can turn the particles off an on by pressing the "Change View" button whatever you have it mapped too. It's great for people who hate particles and equally as wonderful for those who love them.

I could leave it how it is and call my dream of Presence "Completely Done" if that's how people want it. I personally like the particles to play as it reminds me that I'm using Presence on them but not everyone likes the particles, clearly. Smile

By allowing you to turn the particles off and on while in dialogue would be a great addition to both sides.

So...
Starting dialogue in 3rd person - You don't see the Particle HUD Emitter (unless you press "Change View")
Starting dialogue in 1st person - You see the Particle HUD Emitter (unless you press "Change View")

No matter what you still hear the Presence Activation sound play when beginning dialogue, and Presence Deactivation when you end dialogue, along with a message at the top of the screen that says your Presence bonus started and ended appropriately.

As far as Ming Xiao is concerned, I understand what Eliza is saying and I can turn off Presence for her as well, no problem. Is that what we want?
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:38 pm

Is the Presence bonus automatic or do I have to spend blood to activate it?
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:44 pm

Dragatus wrote:
Is the Presence bonus automatic or do I have to spend blood to activate it?

It's FREE, it's a part of being a high level Presence master. I read that some vampires who have a high level of Presence use it without realizing it because they're so good at it. I thought that concept was really cool, almost like their Presence just leaks out of them naturally second nature. This bonus reflects that and is still in-line with lore. Remember, the bonus is small, not overwhelming, otherwise I would've had to charge blood for it.

I reduced the duration of Presence to match the other passive disciplines to keep the balance so Presence wouldn't be too over powered.
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:49 pm

I wouldn't make any exceptions then. Most of the time the bonus is so small it just pushes you a little bit over the edge. It's not like you can walk up to a person who hates you, smile and make them love you.

If you do create exceptions I predict people will keep coming here to report how the Presence bonus is bugged and doesn't work properly on several NPCs. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:50 pm

Of course the game thinks you are still in 3rd peerson view when dialog starts. That's because it doesn't switch to 1st person view, but to a different camera that is independent of the current player camera.

For Ming, I think Eliza is right. At least in the first meeting in the temple, the player will be cautios and not use presence for the same reason as with LaCroix and Isaak. For the later dialogs, depending on his previous behaviour, I'd think the player might care shit and use presence on her regardless. But since there are no presence options in the dialogs at the Hallowbrook hotel or in the end, we don't need it. And if the player is stupid enough to play the Quei Jin ending, he still respects her as an elder and domainholder. So he wouldn't use presence.

If you can find a way to have the particles only for a short time while the sound is playing, I wouldn't mind. But for the whole dialog I think it would be annoying.

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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:05 pm

Dragatus wrote:
I wouldn't make any exceptions then. Most of the time the bonus is so small it just pushes you a little bit over the edge. It's not like you can walk up to a person who hates you, smile and make them love you.

If you do create exceptions I predict people will keep coming here to report how the Presence bonus is bugged and doesn't work properly on several NPCs. Wink

I wondered that too, if people would say "How come Presence doesn't work for certain NPCs, mainly the older kindred and Ming Xiao?"

Malkav wrote:
If you can find a way to have the particles only for a short time while the sound is playing, I wouldn't mind. But for the whole dialog I think it would be annoying.

I could set it up similar to Dominate where it just plays a 1-2 second particle effect, but then I'm back to where I started, it working in 1st person view but not 3rd person. The current Hud Emitter I'm using is the one used in first person view where the little yellow/orangish squiggly lines are around the border of the screen. It doesn't cover the NPC at all, it's merely a frame of particles.
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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:34 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:
Dragatus wrote:
I wouldn't make any exceptions then. Most of the time the bonus is so small it just pushes you a little bit over the edge. It's not like you can walk up to a person who hates you, smile and make them love you.

If you do create exceptions I predict people will keep coming here to report how the Presence bonus is bugged and doesn't work properly on several NPCs. Wink

I wondered that too, if people would say "How come Presence doesn't work for certain NPCs, mainly the older kindred and Ming Xiao?"

Well, duh, because lore, obviously! lol! (Seriously, though, that is literally the answer I would give these people, perhaps worded a bit more friendly, but still.)

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PostSubject: Re: New Presence system in TFN 1.4   Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:01 pm

Eliza wrote:
Well, duh, because lore, obviously! lol! (Seriously, though, that is literally the answer I would give these people, perhaps worded a bit more friendly, but still.)

"Well, duh!" wouldn't be friendly? LOL

I took Ming Xiao out of the group of those who are affected by your Presence. So it's basically YamiRaziel's list except I added Ming to the list of Non-Affect from Presence.

As far as the particles playing while in dialogue if you're in 1st person and not playing if you're in 3rd person, the more I think about it the more I like it, and it's already setup that way so we're good from that standpoint. And of course the player can switch views while in dialogue as much as they want to turn the effects on or off as they see fit.

Should I go ahead and finish up the system this weekend, finalize how it's going to be, then post a video on it? Or are we still debating who should be affected and how the particles play?
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