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 Mechanics charts?

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ngppgn
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PostSubject: Mechanics charts?   Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:14 pm

The haggle mechanic have a chart explaining which is affected by the haggle stat (I assume the effect varies for the full 0-10 scale of the feat, right?. So I'd like to request that similar charts are added for the other systems, concretely:

-Inspection: What can be found in which map at which level
-Computers: hacking needed and xp rendered for/by each computer
-Lockpicking: requirement and loot for each cheast.

It would be pretty helpful for planning ahead instead of rerolling characters for those of us who have a minimum time to play and would like to get the max out of a single playthorugh.

Thanks.
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Griff
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:40 pm

I'm fairly certain that you're not intended to know the exact values for these things until you find out yourself. This is the kind of game where you're meant to roleplay and let your character's personality decide how you spend your experience, rather than minmaxing. That's why there are usually multiple ways to complete each quest. You're not supposed to see everything in a single playthrough. Sorry, I realize that this is an unsatisfying answer, but I felt it had to be said.
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ngppgn
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:42 pm

Griff wrote:
I'm fairly certain that you're not intended to know the exact values for these things until you find out yourself. This is the kind of game where you're meant to roleplay and let your character's personality decide how you spend your experience, rather than minmaxing. That's why there are usually multiple ways to complete each quest. You're not supposed to see everything in a single playthrough. Sorry, I realize that this is an unsatisfying answer, but I felt it had to be said.

You know, I fully understand that. But I think that in a sense, minmaxing is not opposed to roleplaying, but rather is a tool for it:

The game has reacts in a certain way to your choices and your character stats. Sometimes, you want to play a certain role to explore (i.e. let the game surprise you) the possibilities it unleash. Other times, you just want to create a perfect play, and experience in a more passive way the best role you can craft (i.e. you envision your character, and you decide beforehand the way the character developement will have the most dramatic output in the play). For this second option of play, which I see as being as much enjoyable and valid as far as PR goes, information about game reactiveness is essential.

The game having multiples ways of advancement is not incompatible at all with the second way of conceiving playing. If by saying that "it is intended" that the info be kept out of your reach you mean that it is an express intention of the modders, then well, I must as much as say that they are the their right to do so, of course, but that is limitating of the player, rather than enhancing of the game, when you consider both posibilities of using the game I just outlined.
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malak
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:33 am

If you browse the forum, you will see some of your answer in posts where Childe or Zer0 have put up the concepts and asked if anyone agrees. Also, most (if not all) of the effects are either linear equations or simply "meet x level, get y reward". A fair number of these values are also presented in the readmes, as well.

Again, not a full answer, but I hope it guides you in the correct direction.
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Cretino
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:01 am

Exactly why we need a wikia.
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ngppgn
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:58 am

Cretino wrote:
Exactly why we need a wikia.

+1 to that. Has been there an actual initiative to set up one?
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YamiRaziel
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:03 am

I was going to help with that, but I thought the wikia would be about anything else but that.
Charts and cooky cutter builds... I'll play World of Warcraft if I want more of that Razz

I'm sorry Cretino, don't wait me for that. I'm not interested in investing time in that kind of information.
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Cretino
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:40 am

Me too. Unless we find more kinds of information to add, or +10 people.
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malak
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm

If we do create a wikia, I would rather these charts be left off. Collections of lore, quest lists/guides, explanations of mechanic systems, sure. but I actually really like that that you DON'T know what that next level of inspection is going to find. It encourages you to revisit the old maps.
Were it possible, I would like to see Zer0 remove the "Failed to hack/lockpick at difficulty X" message to increase this effect, to make it more like the dialog feats.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:11 pm

malak wrote:
Were it possible, I would like to see Zer0 remove the "Failed to hack/lockpick at difficulty X" message to increase this effect, to make it more like the dialog feats.
I think this is possible. At least to remove the "at difficulty x" part.

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ngppgn
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:46 pm

malak wrote:
If we do create a wikia, I would rather these charts be left off. Collections of lore, quest lists/guides, explanations of mechanic systems, sure. but I actually really like that that you DON'T know what that next level of inspection is going to find. It encourages you to revisit the old maps.
Were it possible, I would like to see Zer0 remove the "Failed to hack/lockpick at difficulty X" message to increase this effect, to make it more like the dialog feats.

Well, an hipothetical wiki could include both the general explanations and the detailed analysis in different sections, so that we could have the best of both worlds. And I don't get all the "you should not know the exact mechanics" arguments. As far as my dim knowledge goes, roleplaying is in a great measure about directing a character that actually has less knowledge about his world than you as a player have, not about you as the player having to know less than you potentially could. Specially I don't get why, if those arguments were to stand in the case of VTMB should be left out considering WoW and such.
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malak
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:20 am

My case is that such charts remove the sense of discovery from the PLAYER. I dislike them for WoW and it's ilk as well.
If you can find a way to include them, and still have the player discover such things, then go for it.
But as always, I'm not the one modding, so my oppinion only goes so far.
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Cretino
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:44 am

Nah, I just need to do Spoiler on them. You click to reveal if you wish to.
Or I could use the "why are you reading the game encyclopedia if you don't to know more than you do?" excuse and proceed.
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malak
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:18 am

Fair enough. I think Spoilers would be the best way to do that, to prevent creating a maze of hyperlinks and the confusion of "am I in the technical or description side of the wiki" issue.


Also, when did I hit Meth status? Good grief, have I really been here that long?
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:37 am

It only takes 250 posts to be Metuselah.
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:06 pm

I read this entire string of posts (I can't believe it) and after hearing ngppgn's arguments and other one elses, I have to say that I actually agree with everyone because the arguments on both sides were valid.

With that said, ngppgn is asking me to go through the entire game and list every item, difficulty level, location, and which feat is required for everything in a nice charted layout. This would take a lot of time on my end and honestly it's not something I want to do right now. I just began dating this girl and I'm still modding TFN along with my full time job and life responsibilities.

If there ever comes a time where something like this sounds like fun, then yeah I'll do it. People who enjoy discovering these things just need not to read it, but those who enjoy min/maxing would love it! I think ngppgn has a point and so I'd have no problem having this information out for people to see, but honestly right now just isn't a good time to put so much work into charting it all out.

What I can do however is show you how you can chart it out yourself, if you want to take the time to do it. If you do, and it's accurate, I'd be more than happy to display it here permanently. Of course I would need the original .xls files so I can update them appropriately as I make future changes. Without those, I can't update them and would have to take them down as soon as I made a change.

I hope this answer is to your approval, ngppgn. Smile
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Cretino
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:32 pm

I already said to YamiRaziel, developers should not give us the charts. That's for the player to find. Please, don't lose your precious time ^^ it's grunt work anyway...
But, if there's something we can't find, like, item drop chances (not happening on VtMB), we will come running to you with questions!
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ngppgn
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:34 am

@Zer0Morph: First off: Thanks for taking the time to read through and reply.

Secondly, let me apologise if I sounded demanding or something, and specially if I was understood as asking you to do as you describe: Basically rewriting the entire game code so that anyone could read it. That was not what I intended. Rather, I assumed that you had what would be the info I was asking for in am accessible way outside og gaming code (for example in the form on notes to be checked when testing). Maybe that was an extrapolation of what I do when modding other games myself, and that was not warranted.

That said, I'd like to give it a try to the compiling task, specially, since I'm looking for a way to introduce myself to modding bloodlines, and this could be a good way to familiarise with the code.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:17 am

ngppgn wrote:

That said, I'd like to give it a try to the compiling task, specially, since I'm looking for a way to introduce myself to modding bloodlines, and this could be a good way to familiarise with the code.
Another bloodlines modder? That would be great. cheers
If you have any questions, ask. You can also have a look in our modding tips section. And look into Dheu's manual. Most of it isn't very good as a tutorial, but later it's an invaluable reference for the experienced modder.

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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:42 pm

You're welcome ngppgn. I got your PM so I'll reply to your questions there.

Malkav is right, check out our modding tips and Dheu's guide to Bloodlines. It will no doubt be confusing at first but as you expand your repertoire, it will save you more times than not.
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanics charts?   Today at 10:00 pm

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