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 Is Potence underpowered?

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MxM
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PostSubject: Is Potence underpowered?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:12 am

Is Potence underpowered? When compared to other discipline it surely is. I think it's the only discipline i never raised past the first dot (the one you get from the char creation). I always felt more likely to raise Strength/ Melee/ Brawl/ BloodBuff instead that investing in Potence. Is there a way to make it more useful? (and keep it lore-friendly?)
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:26 am

I can think of three ways:
-make the duration longer; lore friendly because time is calculated completely different anyway, but probably not that effective in making the discipline more appealing
-make the effect stronger; either the potence effect itself or (I prefer this) a small bonus to the unarmed and melee feats, only partly lore friendly, but more interesting for the player
-give claws to potence users; not lore friendly, and only interesting for brawlers

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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:58 am

-Make the mythical "cannot be blocked" damage, unblockable
-Each hit does a percent of the target health, based on Discipline level
-Moar particles
-Chance to stun/stagger the target on each and every hit
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:44 pm

A very simple way to make Potence attractive would be if it simply gave +2 Strength per dot.
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kyoden
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:51 pm

Dragatus wrote:
A very simple way to make Potence attractive would be if it simply gave +2 Strength per dot.

This is actually the one that makes most sense to me. In P&P each Potence dot grants an automatic success. Usually a success means a successful die roll of 6+. Which is basicly 50%50. So, 2 dice (aka 2 str) should be a nice transition.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:38 pm

I guess I'm confused here guys, right now Potence gives you a +1 Strength and an Automatic Hit Success for that strength. This almost literally rips people apart in combat. Have you played with Potence 5? It's ridiculous how powerful it is for Unarmed/Melee characters because all of your swings always hit and do damage.

Maybe I'm missing something here... Believe me, I I love you Potence but to give it additional buffs would seem OP to me.

As for particle effects, I already made the effects progressive so the particles are bigger, brighter, and more obvious as you advance in the discipline.

Let's keep discussing this, I'm still open to the idea but I need a good argument.

Edit: I was actually thinking about Potence the other day and wondered if a bonus to Intimidation in dialogue would be a good idea, or lore friendly. Just an idea...
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:52 pm

Another idea would be doing this...

Potence 1 - +1 STR +1 Automatic Hit
Potence 2 - +2 STR +2 Automatic Hit
Potence 3 - +3 STR +3 Automatic Hit
Potence 4 - +5 STR +4 Automatic Hit
Potence 5 - +7 STR +5 Automatic Hit

So this would grant players who choose to invest in Potence a bonus to Strength at higher levels, but not until they reach higher levels. Those who only put 1 or 2 dots in Potence won't see the overwhelming strength.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:45 pm

I like your last suggestion, Zer0. But i would start the extra bonus at level 3:

Potence 1: +1
potence 2: +2
potence 3: +4
potence 4: +6 (or +5)
potence 5: +8 (+7)

If you want to add a potence bonus to intimidation in dialog, I would remove it from presence. But on the other hand, potence doesn't change the appearance, so I think the dialog bonus should stay with presence.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:54 pm

What about a bonus to base damage?
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:59 pm

Childe of Malkav wrote:
If you want to add a potence bonus to intimidation in dialog, I would remove it from presence. But on the other hand, potence doesn't change the appearance, so I think the dialog bonus should stay with presence.

I like your suggestion of starting the extra Strength at Potence 3 instead of 4. Remember though, this extra strength is regular strength, not overwhelming automatic hits.

As far as adding Potence to dialogue for Intimidation, you're right, Potence is strength but not a physical appearance change or even a supernatural presence change, so I'd keep Intimidate with Presence.

MxM wrote:
What about a bonus to base damage?

Base damage with what? Your fists? Or a melee weapon? You would do extra damage with the additional strength starting at Potence 3 using any melee weapon or fists. It would be funny to see how far NPCs fly when you hit them, lol.

Thoughts on this idea everyone?
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MxM
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:13 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:

MxM wrote:
What about a bonus to base damage?

Base damage with what? Your fists? Or a melee weapon? You would do extra damage with the additional strength starting at Potence 3 using any melee weapon or fists. It would be funny to see how far NPCs fly when you hit them, lol.

Thoughts on this idea everyone?
Just +1 to the base damage of melee weapons and fists.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:21 pm

MxM wrote:
Zer0Morph wrote:

MxM wrote:
What about a bonus to base damage?

Base damage with what? Your fists? Or a melee weapon? You would do extra damage with the additional strength starting at Potence 3 using any melee weapon or fists. It would be funny to see how far NPCs fly when you hit them, lol.

Thoughts on this idea everyone?
Just +1 to the base damage of melee weapons and fists.
Doesn't work that way. You'd have to use some evil tricks to accomplish this. And I'm not sure if the hack I have in mind would work.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:04 pm

There's 3 basic criterias of melee and unarmed weapons.

Skill Requirement
Base Lethality
Damage

For every +1 Strength you have, your damage would increase * whatever the Base Damage is.

So you take "Your current Skill" - "Skill Requirement" + "Base Lethality" = x * "Damage"

So let's take a look at the Knife in TFN.
Skill Requirement - 4
Base Lethality - 9
Damage - 2

Your current Feat level is 1 (You suck at melee)

Math: 1 - 4 + 9 = 6 * 2 = You do 12 damage maximum with a knife

Your current Feat level is 5 (You're a lot better with knives now)

Math: 5 - 4 + 9 = 10 * 2 = You do 20 damage maximum with a knife

Your current Feat level is 10 (You're a professional knife expert)

Math: 10 - 4 + 9 = 15 * 2 = You do 30 damage maximum with a knife

Your current Feat level is 10 + Level 5 Potence (You will do some sick damage)

Math: 10 - 4 + 9 + 5 (Automatic Hit) = 20 * 2 = You do 40 damage maximum with a knife and 10 of those points are automatic no matter what.


Now remember, your strength increases both unarmed and melee weapon damage however each point you have in it has a 50/50 chance to hit. The great thing about Potence is that the Overwhelming Strength is an automatic hit no matter what. So you're essential getting a +1 to Strength and a +1 to Automatic Hit for a total of 2 extra points in the damage calculator. That's a ton of damage if you're Potence 5.

Does this make more sense now why Potence is so good to have if your Unarmed/Melee? The +3 Strength would benefit this discipline even further so I don't want to make it too OP.

Now imagine if you had Blood Buff 5 on top of all of that. Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:47 pm

Automatic damage no matter what isn't quite right. If your opponent has Fortitude, he has automatic soak succes, which at least partly cancelles the automatic damage.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:33 am

Childe of Malkav wrote:
Automatic damage no matter what isn't quite right. If your opponent has Fortitude, he has automatic soak succes, which at least partly cancelles the automatic damage.

True, but that's a whole different discussion altogether.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:17 am

Yeah, let's not discuss what happens when the spear that cannot be stopped hit the imovable shield.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:55 am

It deflects. Simple as that.

Now, where that an IRRESISTIBLE spear vs. an immovable, impenetrable shield we might have some . . . icky-er results.


Last edited by malak on Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:35 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:29 am

I always knew the unstopable would keep moving, but to somewhere else! It's all about vectors!
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:16 am

Zer0Morph wrote:
There's 3 basic criterias of melee and unarmed weapons.

Skill Requirement
Base Lethality
Damage

For every +1 Strength you have, your damage would increase * whatever the Base Damage is.

So you take "Your current Skill" - "Skill Requirement" + "Base Lethality" = x * "Damage"

So let's take a look at the Knife in TFN.
Skill Requirement - 4
Base Lethality - 9
Damage - 2

Your current Feat level is 1 (You suck at melee)

Math: 1 - 4 + 9 = 6 * 2 = You do 12 damage maximum with a knife

Your current Feat level is 5 (You're a lot better with knives now)

Math: 5 - 4 + 9 = 10 * 2 = You do 20 damage maximum with a knife

Your current Feat level is 10 (You're a professional knife expert)

Math: 10 - 4 + 9 = 15 * 2 = You do 30 damage maximum with a knife

Your current Feat level is 10 + Level 5 Potence (You will do some sick damage)

Math: 10 - 4 + 9 + 5 (Automatic Hit) = 20 * 2 = You do 40 damage maximum with a knife and 10 of those points are automatic no matter what.


If the results of your examples are correct, shouldn't the formula be (Skill-requirement+lethality)*2=x? Or am I mistaking something here?
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:49 am

2 is "Damage", so the formula has to change accordingly, (CSkill-SkillRequirement+Lethality)*Damage=x
You're right.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:26 pm

ngppgn wrote:
If the results of your examples are correct, shouldn't the formula be (Skill-requirement+lethality)*2=x? Or am I mistaking something here?

Yeah, that's the same formula as mine, just re-arranged.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:51 pm

Did we decide to add + Strength to Potence 3, 4, and 5?
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:38 pm

Personally, I don't think that Potence needs buffing. Especially not after seeing that formula.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:09 pm

Griff wrote:
Personally, I don't think that Potence needs buffing. Especially not after seeing that formula.

I'd be just fine with that as well.

Any other opinions?
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PostSubject: Re: Is Potence underpowered?   Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:15 am

Griff wrote:
Personally, I don't think that Potence needs buffing. Especially not after seeing that formula.

Ditto.
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