Team Camarilla International Official Forum

This is the official forum for Team Camarilla International: The Bloodlines Developers
 
HomeCalendarFAQSearchMemberlistUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 All kinds of philosophy

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Cretino
Antediluvian
Antediluvian
avatar

Posts : 724
Join date : 2015-01-26
Age : 24
Location : Brazil

PostSubject: All kinds of philosophy   Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:40 pm

I want to debate them with you! Are you willing to waste your precious time for the sake of my whims?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Karavolos
megalomaniac
avatar

Posts : 2541
Join date : 2011-12-27

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:36 am



When you don't have any witty philosophy topics to bring up, turn to your old friend Philosoraptor!
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dragatus
Caine
Caine
avatar

Posts : 3127
Join date : 2011-12-05

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:56 am

It implies there are two biological sexes.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Online
Cretino
Antediluvian
Antediluvian
avatar

Posts : 724
Join date : 2015-01-26
Age : 24
Location : Brazil

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:04 am

Yes, which is why people use pansex nowadays.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Feral
Beyond Caine
Beyond Caine
avatar

Posts : 6104
Join date : 2010-08-15
Age : 33
Location : Poland

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:16 am

Cretino wrote:
Yes, which is why people use pansex nowadays.

Use what?

Amd yeah, that is my kind of debate. Count me in. I may bore you all with bioethics, but will try not to.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Karavolos
megalomaniac
avatar

Posts : 2541
Join date : 2011-12-27

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:14 pm

Also confused. Anyways go for it, Feral. Worse to worst put it in a spoiler and people can turn it off if they wanna.

As far as I'm concerned there are three genders I consider legit: male, female and intersex; that last one does exist so hey, fair game. Trans I just attribute to whatever gender they identify as and the grain of salt in what their biological gender happens to be is an aside. Everything else I mostly can't even identify and thus consider illegitimate. Not that I oppose if anyone wanna call themselves agender or whatever and live accordingly, but I don't think it's a legitimate thing since there is nothing which physically separates them from anyone else who happens to be whatever their biological gender is unlike trans people who afaik have their brains built like a brain of the opposite gender.

All in all identity politics tend to annoy me; I advocate for everyone to be able to do whatever as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, but it feels like it's always a question of "how much do I have to be involved in your politics" with this kind of shit. Thoughts?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Feral
Beyond Caine
Beyond Caine
avatar

Posts : 6104
Join date : 2010-08-15
Age : 33
Location : Poland

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:38 pm

Karavolos wrote:
Also confused. Anyways go for it, Feral. Worse to worst put it in a spoiler and people can turn it off if they wanna.

As far as I'm concerned there are three genders I consider legit: male, female and intersex; that last one does exist so hey, fair game. Trans I just attribute to whatever gender they identify as and the grain of salt in what their biological gender happens to be is an aside. Everything else I mostly can't even identify and thus consider illegitimate. Not that I oppose if anyone wanna call themselves agender or whatever and live accordingly, but I don't think it's a legitimate thing since there is nothing which physically separates them from anyone else who happens to be whatever their biological gender is unlike trans people who afaik have their brains built like a brain of the opposite gender.

All in all identity politics tend to annoy me; I advocate for everyone to be able to do whatever as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, but it feels like it's always a question of "how much do I have to be involved in your politics" with this kind of shit. Thoughts?

Well, I may believe in male, female and cases of transgender (even if biologically it is simply a brain disorder). What is intersex? I have never heard of agender people. Do you mean asexual?

As far as policies go, I feel the whole "use the bathroom of a gender you identify with" leaves too much an opportunity for sex predators to avoid responsibility for their actions. As for other policies, my position is if you work as everyone else who cares what dangles between your legs or you wish did dangle there. Unless people get all pushy and into other peoples faces. Then I am against such behaviours.

Of course all using gender identification stuff to get privilages/avoid doing your share is condemnable.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Karavolos
megalomaniac
avatar

Posts : 2541
Join date : 2011-12-27

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:08 pm

Intersex Explanation:
 

I guess agender means they don't identify as anything or whatever? Not the same as asexual. As for policies, I disagree with the notion that it's an opportunity for sex predators cuz it's not really happened in the places where unisex bathrooms exist. Not that some people can't be creepy, but I don't think unisex bathrooms are a catalyst in the civilized public. Especially when there are locked doors and separate rooms. That said, I can understand if some are uncomfortable with unisex bathrooms when stalls are involved or maybe even bars and the sort where people aren't necessairly expected to think clearly. I wouldn't be cuz I don't worry about people peeking at me (even if someone did it'd be easy to report them and gg buddy) but I can see the reasoning.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dragatus
Caine
Caine
avatar

Posts : 3127
Join date : 2011-12-05

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:11 pm

My opinion is that the whole bathroom debate is dumb. Forcing people to use bathroom for whatever gender they were assigned at birth is stupid because you get stuff like trans men who look like men being forced to use the women's bathroom and freak out the women in there. But a law stating you can use any bathroom you want isn't good either, because it can be abused.

So what is the solution? What people were doing before this became a political topic: no bathroom laws and letting people sort things out using common sense. You look like a man? Use the men's bathroom and nobody will be bothered. You look like a woman? Use the women's bathroom and again nobody will be bothered. You're a perv that went into the wrong bathroom? Get reported for disturbing the public peace. You had a legitimate reason to be there? Explain it to the police/security/whatever and let them decide if it's good enough.

There, all problems sorted and all it took was to have less regulation of people's personal lives.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Online
Cretino
Antediluvian
Antediluvian
avatar

Posts : 724
Join date : 2015-01-26
Age : 24
Location : Brazil

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:27 pm

Dragatus wrote:
My opinion is that the whole bathroom debate is dumb. Forcing people to use bathroom for whatever gender they were assigned at birth is stupid because you get stuff like trans men who look like men being forced to use the women's bathroom and freak out the women in there. But a law stating you can use any bathroom you want isn't good either, because it can be abused.

So what is the solution? What people were doing before this became a political topic: no bathroom laws and letting people sort things out using common sense. You look like a man? Use the men's bathroom and nobody will be bothered. You look like a woman? Use the women's bathroom and again nobody will be bothered. You're a perv that went into the wrong bathroom? Get reported for disturbing the public peace. You had a legitimate reason to be there? Explain it to the police/security/whatever and let them decide if it's good enough.

There, all problems sorted and all it took was to have less regulation of people's personal lives.
Hell is paved with good intentions (and common sense, apparently).
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Karavolos
megalomaniac
avatar

Posts : 2541
Join date : 2011-12-27

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:19 pm

I agree with Draggy. What's next?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
ThePhilosopher
Caine
Caine
avatar

Posts : 2236
Join date : 2010-08-17
Location : Brazil

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:12 pm

I remember an article I've read once.

It was a pastor or other religious freak trying to explain the real reason for global warming. His logic went a little like this:
Hell is as big as it needs to be to properly house all the souls that go there
Hell is filled with fire and is below the earth
More people and more people are becoming sinners today, abandoning God and going to hell when they die, making it expand, therefore increasing the planet's temperature




And yet all this is more scientific than the wall of bullshit you just posted, Kara.



Homo sapiens is a diploid species. Every single human in the world, nay, every single human being that has ever existed as human being has had either 46 chromosomes or a genetic disease, a syndrome. Some examples of such syndromes: Down Syndrome, Turner Syndrome, Klinefelter Syndrome.. Just like every human being to have ever lived has been born with either two legs, two arms or a birth defect.

Sex is not a spectrum. Sexual characteristics vary, sometimes intragender (breast/penis size) sometimes intergenders( facial structure / height), but sex is not on a spectrum. Nature DOES especify very clearly where a male ends and a female begins, in more than one way. You are either XX, XY or you have a birth defect, a syndrome.. And I'm all for the complete integration of people who have birth syndromes in society, wether they are sex chromosome disorders or not, but let's not lie to ourselves: most of the people that claim to be transgender, "intrasex" and/or "non-binary" do NOT have those syndromes, for being birth defects, they are extremely rare.

First of all, the majority of all this "transsexual" craze is caused not by transsexuals themselves, but by a bunch of virtue-signaling demagogues that want to show everyone (and censor and attack their enemies) how great and moral people they are.

Secondly, of those who are transgender, the majority of them don't actually have a birth defect, what they have is a mental illness. No society worth their salt would consider that telling a schizophrenic that he is seeing things that don't exist is mean (or, in places like Canada, illegal) because that might hurt his feelings, and that by taking him by his word is a good way to help him with his troubles.

@Draggy: And who exactly is going to define who looks male enough to use the male bathroom or looks female enough to use the female bathroom? The very people who can't identify their own gender?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dragatus
Caine
Caine
avatar

Posts : 3127
Join date : 2011-12-05

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:00 am

ThePhilosopher wrote:

@Draggy: And who exactly is going to define who looks male enough to use the male bathroom or looks female enough to use the female bathroom? The very people who can't identify their own gender?

The other people in the bathroom get to decide whether the person who just entered is sufficiently male/female looking to not disturb them with their presence.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Online
Karavolos
megalomaniac
avatar

Posts : 2541
Join date : 2011-12-27

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:05 am

ThePhilosopher wrote:
Sex is not a spectrum. Sexual characteristics vary, sometimes intragender (breast/penis size) sometimes intergenders( facial structure / height), but sex is not on a spectrum. Nature DOES especify very clearly where a male ends and a female begins, in more than one way. You are either XX, XY or you have a birth defect, a syndrome..

And intersex people are those who have a defect that makes them ill-fitting for placing firmly in either category? While a grain of salt that I don't exactly study this thing, by what I skim-read there are multiple cases (if not a norm) that intersex don't have XX or XY cuz they sometimes sit at things like XXY (however that works). Could be bullshit or maybe I misread/misremembered in my quick scan, but I don't see the evidence right now to suggest that this isn't an actual thing which exist. Links plz.

ThePhilosopher wrote:
And I'm all for the complete integration of people who have birth syndromes in society, wether they are sex chromosome disorders or not, but let's not lie to ourselves: most of the people that claim to be transgender, "intrasex" and/or "non-binary" do NOT have those syndromes, for being birth defects, they are extremely rare.

Ok, that's nice. I'm talking about the ones who do have those syndromes though. I don't give a fuck about the rest. What're you getting at? Neutral

ThePhilosopher wrote:
Secondly, of those who are transgender, the majority of them don't actually have a birth defect, what they have is a mental illness.

Again, not an expert who studies it. That whole "the brain is built like a brain of the opposite gender" is something I got from a friend who is trangendered and told me that. Could be BS, I donno, but links plz cuz otherwise I feel more inclined to think it's a physical problem in the brain's chemistry which causes the mental issues of being unable to feel comfortable in one's own body which is what I gather out of what I've been told from someone in the actual position of being a trans person.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Jad.3
Caine
Caine
avatar

Posts : 2662
Join date : 2010-09-11
Age : 35
Location : near Prague

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:27 am

How many people are needed to create another?

Imma read this later...
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Feral
Beyond Caine
Beyond Caine
avatar

Posts : 6104
Join date : 2010-08-15
Age : 33
Location : Poland

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:45 am

OK, I feel qualified to clear some confusion.

Things like XXX, XXY XYY (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_X_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome) are trisomies of sex chromosomes. Root cause is an invalid meiosis of forming reproductive cells (sperm or ovary), that causes one of maturing cells to take two chromosomes with its kariokinetic cord instead of one. Such conditions are rare, but not very rare. Symptoms generally include increased height (sometimes decreased for XXX), lowered intelect and/or muscle tone (but not XXY), fertility problems, but not necesarilly, severe acne (XXY). Symptoms do vary in individual cases. On a personal note, my mother had few such patients so I got an earful on the topic and had to look things up for her.

As for transsexual people in the biological sense, the current consensus states that their problems are caused by hormonal imbalance during pregnancy (to little/too much testosterone at specific developemental tresholds) that causes the brain to aquire the architecture associated with the sex opposite to the one determined by the chromosomes. Which could lead to a man with thought processes of a women and vice versa.

As far as the tertiary (sexual) phenotype is concerned, it is determined by an interplay of genetics and the environment. I do not remember the author, but there was a paper stating that a diet with too much phytoestrogens could stunt sexual developement/onset of puberty in boys. Similarilu, testosterone analouges could impact developement of a girl. In our chemical packed environment coming in contact with those at just the wrong age is not unthinkable.
Therefore all the abovedescribed anatomical non-norm developements are in fact developemental defects. With all the sympathy to the patients, as per usual, of course.

As far as social status of the sufferers is concerned, I am for full integration and assimilation into society. But not multiplication of regulations. As Draggy pointed out, common sense works best here. If the people in the restroom think you are in the wrong one, you most likely are. Leaving such matters in the hand of beaurocrats, thirsty for power and answereble to nobady (at least in practice), is not too great an idea in my honest opinion.

I think Philo has a point too: the genuine suffering of people with nonstandard genitals, women with small breasts or worse, man with boobs... It is saddening it is being exploited by opportunistic demagouges bent on spreading their untested social theories. For my part, I think testing cultural marxism on whole societies does not meet bioethical standards. Using those who are disadvantaged to push that agenda is doubly detestable.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Karavolos
megalomaniac
avatar

Posts : 2541
Join date : 2011-12-27

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:54 pm

Feral to the rescue with facts and diligence where the rest are too lazy What a Face
Anyway agreed with the bathrooms and social status etc. Personally I don't overall care who enters what so long as there are separate rooms so privacy is ensured no matter what, but if others around get upset if X enters Y bathroom then yeah common sense; no violence or anything but if they won't leave when asked then endure people thinking they're an asshole.

Maybe I'm too drowsy and missed it but where do you stand on me thinking intersex is a legit middle ground between male and female when they have enough defects that they don't clearly fit into either of the latter? Am I off my rocker or does it make sense?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Feral
Beyond Caine
Beyond Caine
avatar

Posts : 6104
Join date : 2010-08-15
Age : 33
Location : Poland

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:11 am

Karavolos wrote:

Maybe I'm too drowsy and missed it but where do you stand on me thinking intersex is a legit middle ground between male and female when they have enough defects that they don't clearly fit into either of the latter? Am I off my rocker or does it make sense?

Well... It is a hard one. Generally, the vast majority of the populace falls within either clearly male or clerly female categories. For those who don't., most will be visibly either male or female, albeit with some deficient/unusual traits (very small penis, separated scrotum that looks like labia, clitoris big enough to pass for penis etc). There is a catch though: how small is too small? Or too big? Shall we leave it to the doctors to decide? Only a very small minority will shows clearly the traits of the opposite gender. In those cases either chromosomal sex or that of the brain shall decide, reviewed case by case.

To sum up, in most cases of intersex patients, it could be said they are either male or female, then their deficites/defects of anatomy could be surgically or otherwise corrected. So intersex is generally a condition, not a sex per se. However it cannot be denied such a phenomena do occur.

Of cours, ther will always be the rare WTF cases to baffle both medical doctors and geneticists. It is on such cases that we drive the science further. Those may in my honest opinion classify as true intersex.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Karavolos
megalomaniac
avatar

Posts : 2541
Join date : 2011-12-27

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:53 am

Quite and for clarification's sake, I speak exclusively of that rarest of the rare conditions like when someone has bits of both or whatever, not where someone is for all intents and purposes fe/male but happen to have a chromosone off or whatever that doesn't have much/any visible deviation from anyone else of their gender. So that out of the way, what're your guys' stance on smoking?

I personally hate it cuz I choke on the smoke so for me it's beneficial if it just goes away and, pun intended, dies of cancer. That said I also realize that something like a ban would just drive it underground and give criminal enterprises a monopoly so that's not really a solution, let alone a good one. I also live by a philosophy of "do whatever you want as long as it doesn't affect anybody else" and that leaves smoking in a grey area cuz it does affect others via passive smoking, but only if you do it in public rather than private and I don't wanna fuck with those who smoke in private.

To that end, my solution is ban it from the public sphere and set up sections where smoking is allowed, ideally a booth or something with like a ceiling fan or so that can suck it all up and nobody notices, I've seen one of those in a break room one time in a store I worked in and that thing was powerful enough that they could leave the booth door open and you wouldn't smell it. It was awesome. But yeah, away from the public spheres so those who don't want anything to do with it won't be affected but still legal so those who wanna do it can do it and have access to cigarettes whether at home or out and can gather at such spots under pain of fines. Not sure how well it'd work in practice, but I'd like to see it attempted. Opinions?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Cretino
Antediluvian
Antediluvian
avatar

Posts : 724
Join date : 2015-01-26
Age : 24
Location : Brazil

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:58 am

What about hermaprodites?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Feral
Beyond Caine
Beyond Caine
avatar

Posts : 6104
Join date : 2010-08-15
Age : 33
Location : Poland

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:43 am

Cretino wrote:
What about hermaprodites?

They are actually, non neo marxist, true intersex people.

@Karavolos: I think a ban woul work as well as prohibition in the US. So more a problem than a solution. Not to mention it could give it popularity...
You don't need to convince me that smoking is bad: I got a PhD in the Life Sciences class. Driving smokers out of publick spaces is a step in a good direction, but I think it should be coulped with a thorough informative campaign, so the general public doesn't see it as a repression.
But yeah, personal freedoms need to be respected. For the same reason I am for legalization of most drugs: those who want to take them do anyway, harm mostly themselves and drive the income of gangs. Health Inspection and the police should have at least some control over the supply chain, to fine/jail shitty manufacturers, as is with pharma/food industries.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Karavolos
megalomaniac
avatar

Posts : 2541
Join date : 2011-12-27

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:19 am

Good point with the information campaign, if maybe a small grain of salt that I think at this point everyone knows it's bad. All in all agreed. Unless there's dissenting views on what's already been said, what's the next topic?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Feral
Beyond Caine
Beyond Caine
avatar

Posts : 6104
Join date : 2010-08-15
Age : 33
Location : Poland

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:13 pm

What do you think about all this net neutrality hassle? I didn't have much time to read up on this? Mostly because the usual:



Being on the topic of internet, how about privacy? I am a bit concerned my porn browsing history is basically a public domain, for instance>

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dragatus
Caine
Caine
avatar

Posts : 3127
Join date : 2011-12-05

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:09 pm

Net neutrality is extremely important. It means that internet providers have to treat all bits of information equally, regardless of where they come from, where they are going, or what they are. If you get rid of it you give internet providers the power to control who can access what information how quickly (if at all) and in effect censor the internet.

And fuck any attempts to censor the internet. Preferably without lube.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Online
ThePhilosopher
Caine
Caine
avatar

Posts : 2236
Join date : 2010-08-17
Location : Brazil

PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:23 pm

Karavolos wrote:
by what I skim-read there are multiple cases (if not a norm) that intersex don't have XX or XY cuz they sometimes sit at things like XXY (however that works). Could be bullshit or maybe I misread/misremembered in my quick scan, but I don't see the evidence right now to suggest that this isn't an actual thing which exist. Links plz.

Some of the syndromes I've mentioned in my previous post are the ones you're talking about. Then again, very few of them are enough to mark someone as "intersex". They are just often a male or a female with some other characteristics that may not even be that significant.

Klinefelter syndrome:
 

XYY Syndrome:
 

Triple X syndrome:
 

So yeah, not even those with these types of rare syndromes can be properly called "intersex". There are some that could, though, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45,X/46,XY_mosaicism & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/46,_XX/46,XY. That still doesn't mean sex is a spectrum.

Karavolos wrote:
Ok, that's nice. I'm talking about the ones who do have those syndromes though. I don't give a fuck about the rest. What're you getting at? Neutral

I'm getting at that saying sex is a spectrum is extremely unscientific and it's a faith based, ideological claim.
I'm getting at that all this transmania is completly overblown by virtue-signaling
I'm getting at that the majority of those who claim to be transgender do not have those few, specific syndromes and instead have mental illness
And I"m getting at that those that do have those syndromes are so few and far between that talking about them is as useful as talking about that family with the genetic disorder that doesn't let them sleep, or the tree-man in India.

Karavolos wrote:
 That whole "the brain is built like a brain of the opposite gender" is something I got from a friend who is trangendered and told me that. Could be BS, I donno, but links plz cuz otherwise I feel more inclined to think it's a physical problem in the brain's chemistry which causes the mental issues of being unable to feel comfortable in one's own body which is what I gather out of what I've been told from someone in the actual position of being a trans person.

And someone with schizophrenia would have told you that he does not have a disease and that what he sees and hears is perfectly real. Listen, I'm not denying the possibility of the "brain structure" argument being right or having some truth to it. But until I see compelling evidence for it, I remain as suspicious as if someone had told me about "a female with male bone structure" or "a male with female muscle fibres".
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: All kinds of philosophy   

Back to top Go down
 
All kinds of philosophy
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next
 Similar topics
-
» V8 SUPERCARS - CAR OF THE FUTURE - Here come the other manufacturers
» GK 3000 pts VS all kinds of nastyness.
» Irina Staatsrat
» Vikings Civ

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Team Camarilla International Official Forum :: Team Camarilla International Forum :: The TCI Community Dark Room-
Jump to: