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 Mac 10 in Tutorial

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Velvet
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PostSubject: Mac 10 in Tutorial   Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:17 am

Wink Razz

i say this tongue in cheek.

but.
you know the situation: you leave the chopshop building, some sabbat fire at you with a Mac 10, you get winged, Jack shows up, kills him by throwing him At You, he dies Right By Your Side, and you can see His Mac 10 Right By Your Side right near his corpse... and then he dies, he turns to ashes, his ashes fade away... and so does his Mac 10.

i always thought that unfair. i always thought that his Mac 10 should remain on the ground as loot, ready to be picked by us.

unless it is because it is Jack who kills him, not us...

but for those who claim a Mac 10 this early in the game would unbalance the game, i have a counter:
to me Mac 10 are useless. their recoil is so pronounced that when i am shooting bursts with it i hit the first shot on target and then all the remainder shots on the ceiling. and firing it shot by shot inflicts less damage than any other weapon. so, me personaly, i never use it.
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srle
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PostSubject: Re: Mac 10 in Tutorial   Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:04 am

Well if Mac 10 useless, why do you need it so badly?
If you sell it you will get let's say 20 dollars maximum which is really unnecessary and at beginning of game ranged feat of any clan is so bad that you can't hit anything.I think it is made to be obtained in Downtown for purpose, because by then you will have some ranged weps skill(depending on your character build) and it won't be no more spray-and-pray gun.
But on the other hand it sucks when they disappear alien
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Velvet
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PostSubject: Re: Mac 10 in Tutorial   Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:50 am

i did say it was tongue in cheek.

and i am a collector and a pack rat.
i make sure to have in my inventory one of every kind of weaponry and armor that exists in the game, even if i have my favorites.
and to a point there are indeed situations that require different weapons...
sidearms for close combat, shotguns if you need to put your target down quick, sniper rifles for long range combat, machine guns for multiple foes at close range, crossbows for stealth infiltrations... i always carry one of each in my inventory, and since during the game several version of each kind become available i collect them, and only trade them off for money to get the newest version and most importantly to clear the inventory, which has become limited, to make room for newer weapons.
okay, this was a bit rambling off topic.

but indeed the only point i was making was, they do appear in the tutorial, they are used against us, the people toting them die and drop them, and they vanish! it sucks, big time!
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PostSubject: It does break the fourth wall.   Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:20 pm

I agree it does break the fourth wall, but then again not getting a duplicate weapon in your inventory when you already have one of the same kind does as well.

Also when an enemy (I am thinking of the thugs at the warehouse), are holding a gun but you engage them in melee combat they sometimes switch to another weapon, but after you kill them they don't drop the first weaponas well. It just disappears into the ether.
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PostSubject: Re: Mac 10 in Tutorial   Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:13 am

What an unrealistic game you're playing, lol. You know the sun never rises either, BS!!!!

Ok Ok so we gotta give a little to get alot in return. I don't mind these little inaccuracies from time to time, I generally just brush it out of my mind because I can't change them. I do the "I'll pretend that didn't just happen" and then I'm happy again. Very Happy
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Maxus Corvin
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PostSubject: Re: Mac 10 in Tutorial   Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:00 am

Zer0Morph wrote:
What an unrealistic game you're playing, lol. You know the sun never rises either, BS!!!!

Ok Ok so we gotta give a little to get alot in return. I don't mind these little inaccuracies from time to time, I generally just brush it out of my mind because I can't change them. I do the "I'll pretend that didn't just happen" and then I'm happy again. Very Happy

Maybe it was empty? Wouldn't be much of a reason to pick up a gun with no ammo, even if you might expect to get ammo(a along way) down the line. And when you find say, another Uzi, when you already have one, you'd want to appropriate the ammo. Though why the gun(that you wouldn't have needed) disappears, well, that I don't have a answer for.
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PostSubject: Re: Mac 10 in Tutorial   Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:39 am

yes i have come accross the kind of inaccuracies that alexan describes
i usually have the same non plussed atitude that zer0morph describes

but, maxus corvin...

say, at bad blood, shootout in the diner, the first time i get my hands on a shotgun? i am pretty sure there have been instances when there was only one round in the chamber. i think its a default necessary condition, any weapon dropped must have at least one round.

argh don't get me started.

i always remember a book i read in my youth. a book that i borrowed from my lil bro, who at the time was fascinated by such things. (i'm only saying, i was interested enough to read the book, not enough to buy it.) it was a book about french foreign legion in indochia, now vietnam. after each rousing description of a battle, there was always a tedious "shopping list" of weaponry recovered from the enemy. yes after killing all the foes the soldiers looted the corpses of the enemy fallen, piled up and counted, all its weaponry - though i never quite understood why.
so yes it would make a lot of sense, in a military way, not just a commercial way to be able to sell them and say buy ammo, to be able to stockpile several copies of each kind of weapon.

also, sometimes i wonder whether the weapons carried by the foes follow the same rules as us, limited magazines and the need to reload. yes i have seen foes crouching to reload and then standing up to resume combat, but in the fog of war i have trouble keeping it straight. i am admiting it might be a flaw in my perception, not a flaw in the game. but sometimes it does appear that they go on shooting, unrestricted by things like running out of ammo.

and also you see a guy shooting endlessly at you, and you think "my when i bring him down and loot him, i will earn a lot of ammo!" but as soon as you loot them argh! disapointment, it appears that you can only loot the magazine that was being used, say, you can never loot more than 30 rounds from a dropped steyr aug.

but i think i agree with you, i am also quite certain that sometimes i pick up a dropped weapon and nothing happens, which must mean that it was empty.
so that, if you do not have yet a copy of a weapon, you pick it up with at least one round. but if you already have it, the system allows for it to be empty.

also yes a great purpose of fallen weapons seems to be to allow you to reload your own, as opposed to hoarding them.

but that makes a whole lot of sense.
yes action blockbusters are INfamous for that, people shoot out endlessly without the need to reload, unless it offers for a very dramatic scene to show them reloading. and yes sometimes it gets people wondering just where do they store the extra magazines.
you bet in that kind of movies i always felt it would be good for the hero to loot superior weaponry from the fallen foes, and, especially, to pick up extra ammo from them.

a sign that you are watching a good war movie is when ammount of ammo becomes an issue. the scene at omaha beach at the beginning of Saving Private Ryan, it is extremely poignant when one of the americans goes to loot magazines from a fallen and wounded american, who is not seriously wounded, not life threatening, but is out of the fight and therefore in no need of his magazines. it is little touches like this one that make that movie an awesome war movie.
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PostSubject: Re: Mac 10 in Tutorial   Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:36 am

You know how I deal with that MAC 10 in the tutorial? I call up the console as soon as I can after that Sabbat guy turns to ash, and I use 'give item' to give myself a MAC 10. Cheating? Technically, but I was always annoyed that the game would show me the weapon, and not let me pick it up. I never fire the thing; I keep it until Santa Monica, and when I find out Trip wells weapons, I sell it to him for a little (very little) cash.

I look at it this way... your character doesn't have a job. You need every penny you can get. If you are forced to rely on the incredibly small amounts of money that people pay you to do jobs for them, you're not going to get far. If you had to hire someone in real life to do some of the jobs you pull in the game... it would certainly cost you a lot more than a couple of hundred dollars. You are getting ripped off by your elders. So I sell whatever I can for cash.

Look at the 'Traffik' quest... all of those weapons dropped by those gang mambers, and you're not allowed to pick up multiple weapons? That's BEE-ESS. When I first played the game, I went back into the parking garage and hauled out every single .38 and MAC 10... even the baseball bats! The whole arsenal only nets you somewhere around 100-150 dollars. But I rarely use guns, so ammo does me no good.

In Hollywood, I flatter VV and tell her how beautiful she is... and then I go right down the street to the Red Spot, and sell her picture to Slater. In the Society of Leopold, I whittle down Bach with melee weapons... and then finish him off with the shotgun, so he drops his expensive rifle instead of a cheap-ass katana. I refuse to accept that the rifle just 'disappears' if I kill him with a sword.

I guess I could just shrug, and accept the fact that the developers don't want me to have a MAC 10 in the tutorial. I choose not to.
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PostSubject: Re: Mac 10 in Tutorial   Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:45 pm

You know I could program it so the MAC-10 is real, and you can pick it up. Only problem is in TFN, Trip sells MAC-10 ammo so you'd have a MAC-10 at the beginning of the game.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Mac 10 in Tutorial   Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:50 pm

I don't care about the Mac. I never use it or the Uzi.
Until I get to the society, I hardly use anyting but a knife and a Glock. The only other weapon I need is the Steyr. The scope is a fine thing for checking out your surroundings, and in my opinoion, it's the best weapon for Ming and the Marauder.
Everything else is unnecessary, especially when you have obfuscate and dementation. Usually I even don't care for better armor.

O.K. Money is a problem in the early stages of CE 1.3 and 1.4 for the college, but in vanilla games I really don't need it.

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PostSubject: Re: Mac 10 in Tutorial   Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:32 am

zer0morph and Childe of Malkav, your input must be taken into account because you are the developpers in this forum, but you are both missing the point.

me personally, the one who started this thread, i also don't care to use it. it is a very difficult weapon to use, a hell of a kick that makes it impossible to keep it aimed at what we are trying to shoot at, especially with ranged atribute as low as it is when it comes into play. and even if i only care to have it for impractical reasons, because it is good policy to loot dropped weaponry from fallen foes and because of the collector in me, PGM nails it pretty well, especially in the early stages of the game we are a bit strapped for cash and all the cash that you can get from anything that you can get your hands on to sell is pretty wellcome. and since throughout the rest of the game foes that shoot at you with weapons, when we dispatch them they drop them for us to pick up, it seemed a little inconsistent that that did not happen in the tutorial. i mean, even if it is not us that kill him, he does shoot at us and we get wounded by him, by it. we get wounded by the mac 10, and then in the clip we see it fall on the ground just within inches of us. i always found that pretty frustrating. oh, and, later on, when people shoot at us with .38s, we do get to loot those, so it becomes double standards, some weapons we can loot in the tutorial and others not.

i would tend to agree with the both of you in this. zer0morph it does appear to imbalance the game to get access to such powerful weapons so early in the game. but then Childe of Malakav cancels that out. it is a pretty useless weapon to own, so it does not affect game balance because it is not used. and PGM says it all, we are so strapped for cash that if only to sell it as quick as we can we do need it badly.
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PostSubject: Re: Mac 10 in Tutorial   Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:09 pm

I don't think the first time you get shot the reaction is "Neat gun!" Laughing

I usually just assume it skitters off, probably under that dumpster nearby or through the railings. He was thrown pretty damn hard after all. No animation for skittering though, so it just has to fade out.
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PostSubject: Re: Mac 10 in Tutorial   Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:49 pm

8people wrote:
I usually just assume it skitters off, probably under that dumpster nearby or through the railings. He was thrown pretty damn hard after all. No animation for skittering though, so it just has to fade out.

That's actually a very good rationalization for why it disappears; but I doubt that's why Troika did it. They just thought it was too powerful a gun to give in the tutorial. To me, it's like, "Oh, there's seven dollars. It's mine."
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PostSubject: Re: Mac 10 in Tutorial   Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:39 am

8 people, first, Laughing indeed!
but then, 8 people, PGM, that is not enough.
i would lay on my belly and reach under the dumpster to pick it up, regardless of the fact that that is not a motion allowed in the game
(and Exclamation now there is an idea, to allow for crawling as a movement in the game!)
for sure, PGM, obviously, even though such a gun appears in the tutorial and is used on you, it only becomes available to the character much later on because it is deemed too powerful to be owned so early in the game, so it is not made available. as there is a progression in level, you start low level in your attributes and then you have to grow more powerful, so do the guns and weapons available to you become ever more powerful, there is a progression, and for such a weapon to become available so early would break that progression.
i understand why they did it. in keeping with game dynamics and progression, in keeping with game balance.
i know all that.
it just is frustrating, that is all, to have that gun used against you, to see it skitter to within inches of you, and then to see it fade away and not become available.
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