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 Disciplines in Elysium

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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Disciplines in Elysium   Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:47 pm

Hi everybody,
this time I have a question. I have found some places in the game where you can use Dementation in dialog even though you are in Elysium. E.g. You can dementate Chunk in the tower foyer. So what I'd like to know is, how are the Elysium rules enforced in WoD lore? Is it just politeness to the owner of the place, or are there any enforcements that actually prevent discipline use?

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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:46 am

Well, from what i've read(which is not much) there's nothing preventing vampires from using disciplines in Elysium other than a few elysium guards(i forgot how they are called) and the fear of retribution by the community. It's simply a rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:14 am

So technically in WoD lore there aren't any magical or supernatural means that dull or nullify a Kindred's power in Elysium? Hmmm scratching head... can anyone else add to this? Malkav's got me curious about this too now.
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:39 pm

There are tremere rituals that theorhetically could be put in place but you'd need a Tremere willing to support each elysium to put it in place to each one. Some places may not warrant such protection. It's up to the Keeper of Elysium to ensure the rules are kept or the prince will fire them and shut the place down.

Elysiums are usually mutually safe areas for EVERY kindred in the city, meeting places, and generally a vampires haven is considered a place one shows utmost respect and does not use supernatural arts unless invited to.
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:52 pm

As with many rules in vampire society, the chief rule about using disciplines in Elysium is 'Don't get caught'. It's not a magical force that keeps you from doing anything (barring Tremere magic, like 8people mentioned). If you are caught, there will be consequences, ranging from loss of Status to a blood hunt depending on the situation.

Now, that being said, it can be really hard to detect if someone uses Blood Buff to help pick a lock, or gives someone a little 'nudge' during a conversation. So I assume that's why the developers allowed the occasional discipline use in Elysium.
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:11 am

Thanks for the info so far.
For the game, I think they allowed for bloodbuff while lockpicking only so you can open Carsons trunk. But it is a good joke that you can use dialog domination and dementation in the Princes own Foyer. Laughing And that is vanilla, not added by the patch or a mod.
I would love it to dementate the Prince, but that would certainly not be possible for a mere fledgling. And such a rude asault on the Princes Elysium would most certainly end in a haircut performed by that doped up gorilla...
And it is good news for me as well. I think a penalty on persuasion would fit as a consequence of the Malkavians madness. Thus forcing them to use dementation in the dialgues more frequently.

Further comments on this topic are welcome.

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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:00 am

Aren't there already a couple of places where Malkavians are penalized for their madness? I'd have to run through the game again to find the specific locations, but there are a few times where Malkavians just don't get the blue dialogue line, even if you have a high Persuasion. At least, it used to be that way; not sure if recent patches/mods have 'fixed' that.
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:35 pm

Childe of Malkav wrote:
And it is good news for me as well. I think a penalty on persuasion would fit as a consequence of the Malkavians madness. Thus forcing them to use dementation in the dialgues more frequently.

Further comments on this topic are welcome.

- geek

That's a really cool idea actually. (About time Malks get penalized for something, them and Tremere seem a little overpowered, can't imagine who's idea THAT was... lol)
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:37 am

I really can't say, Zer0.
Don't remember right now who was responsible for the discipline changes in version 1.2 scratch

Well I haven't played a Tremere in a long time, so I can't present an opinion on them right now.
But that was the general idea. For every clan there is a weakness that can be seen in a game effect. Only for Malks, there is "madness" stated, but without real cosequences.

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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:42 am

Speaking of Malks, I always had a real annoyance with the persuade/seduce/threaten lines for them since they always were the same as the other clans, I'm not sure if it's been fixed since it's been some time since I've played a Malk but it seemed really odd that you would 'suddenly' speak normally for one sentence then be back to crazy text.. if it's not fixed is there a way to fix it?
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:29 am

Nezumi wrote:
Speaking of Malks, I always had a real annoyance with the persuade/seduce/threaten lines for them since they always were the same as the other clans, I'm not sure if it's been fixed since it's been some time since I've played a Malk but it seemed really odd that you would 'suddenly' speak normally for one sentence then be back to crazy text.. if it's not fixed is there a way to fix it?

I can't say if Malks really use the same texts other clans for these things right now. I'll have to look into the dialog files. but if this really is the case, it can easily be fixed if I have a good idea what to say instead. Technically it's just a matter of adding a Malk entry to the text line.

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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:42 am

...but if ALL of the lines are setup to speak "normally" then you'll have alot of work to do getting those changed over to something crazy instead. Eeeek.... affraid

Childe of Malkav wrote:
I really can't say, Zer0.
Don't remember right now who was responsible for the discipline changes in version 1.2 scratch

Oops, that might've been MY fault... lol
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:58 pm

Alright, here's my little grain of sand Smile

First, yeah, in Elyseum, it's a basic respect and survival way not to use disciplines. It's like, yes, it's forbidden to murder anyone on the streets, but even if it was, you you murder everyone just for the lols ?
Don't get caught, yes, but ohwell. Usually the Keeper of the Elyseum is old enough, has experience and has good eyes to spot anyone using disciplines when they shouldn't. But as long as they are not invasive disciplines, it depends on the local politics. Most nossies are in constant obfuscate for pure sociability Wink

Then, there's always our pal Steve Jobbs with his "There's an App for that".. I mean, there is always a Tremere with a ritual Wink But again, it depends on the politics and how it's possible to trust said Tremere Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:19 pm

Claudia wrote:
Alright, here's my little grain of sand Smile
Then, there's always our pal Steve Jobbs with his "There's an App for that".. I mean, there is always a Tremere with a ritual Wink But again, it depends on the politics and how it's possible to trust said Tremere Smile

"Trust the Tremere"? Some would say that's a contradiction in terms. Very Happy You're right though; with Thaumaturgy giving Tremere the ability to mimic certain disciplines, it's hard to tell whether they are doing something or not. Although Auspex might be able to spot active Thaumaturgical rituals, at the storyteller's discretion. In the description for Auspex, magic use shows up as 'myriad sparkles' in their aura.

I'm sure Nosferatu would actually be encouraged to use 'Mask of 1000 Faces' in Elysium, to project a normal appearance (albeit an ugly one, unless they roll well). Of course, if I were playing a Nossie, I'd claim I didn't have that ability yet, just to annoy the Toreador (and hide my abilities).
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:31 pm

Childe of Malkav wrote:
I can't say if Malks really use the same texts other clans for these things right now. I'll have to look into the dialog files. but if this really is the case, it can easily be fixed if I have a good idea what to say instead. Technically it's just a matter of adding a Malk entry to the text line.

- geek

I have checked all the dialogues in chinatown for persuasion, intimidation, and seduction, and I have found only one or two places where the Malk line was the same as the normal text.
Perhaps the differences are smaller, because there are only so many lines you can feed for seduction, for persuasion you need at least a bit of coherency, and for intimidation purposes everybody else uses more colorful language, too.

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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:02 pm

PGM1961 wrote:
I'm sure Nosferatu would actually be encouraged to use 'Mask of 1000 Faces' in Elysium, to project a normal appearance (albeit an ugly one, unless they roll well). Of course, if I were playing a Nossie, I'd claim I didn't have that ability yet, just to annoy the Toreador (and hide my abilities).

Hmmm... that would be cool if you could Obfuscate in Elysium, like Blood Buff for picking locks. I know how to remove Elysium from maps but then that would free up everyone to use disciplines and I wouldn't want that.
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:39 am

On a similar matter: Does anybody know why Zhao's in chinatown is Elysium before the dialogue starts? I always find it annoying that I can't check if my guns are loaded and set to the right fire mode before entering the office.

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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:46 am

I agree with "Elysium" being more of a rule of etiquette than a disability. And, LaCroix being LaCroix - imagine the sissy fit he'd have if you misused your abilities in HIS house! But, persuading Chunk seems very minor and easily overlooked. Also, this could easily explain how, when you're actually supposed to kill a character in their own Elysium, suddenly the Elysium is lifted. It's not a magical barrier.

Also, another example of this being only a rule - once I tried to use Dementation on Therese, and instead of working out just well or failing, she knows you tried to use it and gives you a fairly ticked-off warning.

Childe of Malkav wrote:
On a similar matter: Does anybody know why Zhao's in chinatown is Elysium before the dialogue starts? I always find it annoying that I can't check if my guns are loaded and set to the right fire mode before entering the office.
The idea for Elysium around Zhao could have been purely story-related, I'd think. For instance, how some shooters and console games make your weaponry set aside for the meantime until you talk to someone - and then BOOM! All out war.

Zer0Morph wrote:
That's a really cool idea actually. (About time Malks get penalized for something, them and Tremere seem a little overpowered, can't imagine who's idea THAT was... lol)
As for being 'overpowered,' I've heard many people say this, but I disagree. Yes, my entry Clan (for my first times playing the game) was Tremere, but they have their own disadvantages and benefits, just like any other Clan. For instance, my Tremere always sucked when the battles got up close and personal! An MMO I play has 8 different classes, and people go on and on about one class or another being way too overpowered, but you have to look at all the aspects - and since I have one of each class for characters, I can weigh them out myself. What I've noticed... Magical characters SUCK in close combat, and so they must have a lot of magical power in order to survive. Magic users always seem to have some degree of awesome power, and this is just Vampire's version of the classic Mage.
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:00 pm

Hmm, I don't see how a Tremere can suck in close combat. Don't you have Bloodpurge and Bloodform? That makes you as much of a heavy duty battle tank as any Ventrue with fortitude and presence can be. And you only have to get one discipline up to be nearly invulnerable and have your enemies unable to defend themselves.

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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:18 pm

ChazKafka wrote:
As for being 'overpowered,' I've heard many people say this, but I disagree. Yes, my entry Clan (for my first times playing the game) was Tremere, but they have their own disadvantages and benefits, just like any other Clan. For instance, my Tremere always sucked when the battles got up close and personal! An MMO I play has 8 different classes, and people go on and on about one class or another being way too overpowered, but you have to look at all the aspects - and since I have one of each class for characters, I can weigh them out myself. What I've noticed... Magical characters SUCK in close combat, and so they must have a lot of magical power in order to survive. Magic users always seem to have some degree of awesome power, and this is just Vampire's version of the classic Mage.

I can see what you're saying about this, how Tremere are basically glass cannons in close combat compared to the other clans. They do have Bloodform would help them soak up some damage, but all in all you're right in terms of their long range abilities vs. close range. If you think about it, Tremere are the most powerful clan yet the weakest at the same time. I kind've see Malkavian as the same way, with the new CE 1.2 at least. I would think the overall easiest clan to play in terms of balance would be the Brujah, with Speed, Power, and an awesome AoE Debuff, you're short of unstoppable, at least vs. Humans like SWAT and Hunters.

It would be interesting to see a CE Tremere fight a TFN Assamite... basically Thaumaturgy vs. Quietus.... both blood based powers yet so distinctly different. I would think Thaumaturgy would win head on but with the stealthy nature of Quietus, if the Assamite got the jump on the Tremere he would probably get owned. Basically a Mage vs. Rogue (if you play WoW).
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:40 pm

Dunno about disciplines, but it is definitely forbidden to attack someone. In such case the enforcers show the attacker an ash tray.
See "Bear baiting" for further reference Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:49 pm

For combat abilities. Well as a Malk with CE disciplines I can cut about everithing down using nothing more than a knife and a sidearm, or perhaps an uzi. I've tried this thing for the first time now, and I think I really like it.

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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:43 pm

Man I can't wait to reveal the new weapons made just for TFN. Without giving anything away, let's just say it's going to once again change the strategy of this silly game.
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:06 am

Childe of Malkav wrote:
Hmm, I don't see how a Tremere can suck in close combat. Don't you have Bloodpurge and Bloodform? That makes you as much of a heavy duty battle tank as any Ventrue with fortitude and presence can be. And you only have to get one discipline up to be nearly invulnerable and have your enemies unable to defend themselves.

I haven't played a Tremere with CE yet, but last I played one, I remember having to carefully weigh out what abilities I will and won't use in a single battle, usually going on the offensive instead of defensive. This meant using attacks instead of buffs. Occasionally, I did use Bloodform in one-on-one combat like the Blood Guardian - where I used a gun to fight instead of abilities. But things like Bloodform and Bloodpurge are only wonderful devices against weaker enemies. For instance, Jezebel was always a b**** to fight, regardless of if I used Thaumaturgy or not. I tended to find a safer place and just use Blood Strike(?) on her (boy have I run many laps around her table/couch in her room!). Blood Strike was my best friend - doing a bit of damage and then getting at least some of that blood back (again, it's been a while, so I don't fully remember the specifics.) So, I'd find a safe vantage point and just suck some blood from a distance over and over until the enemy was dead. For humans, this still took at least two strikes.

The wonderful thing about this sort of RPG, though! You can play the same character over and over in a different way, using different stats. Maybe there are ways to make a Tremere tank - I wouldn't know. But imagine trying to do those sorts of things with other characters, too. For instance, when I made I Brujah, I still managed to make a stealthy and seductive one.
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PostSubject: Re: Disciplines in Elysium   Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:30 am

Zer0Morph wrote:
Man I can't wait to reveal the new weapons made just for TFN. Without giving anything away, let's just say it's going to once again change the strategy of this silly game.

Hey man, keep your ads off my board! lol!
What are you going to do? Something ridiculous like that guy on the advertising pic for Arsenal mod? Using a bazooka in the parking garage. Makes him a sure winner for the next Darwin Awards Twisted Evil

It seems this topic has become a discussion platform for tactics. Well, that's ok with me. I got the answers about Elysium I needed.

So, ChazKafka in CE you don't get blood back for blood strike, but purge and bloodform are stronger and do work on supernaturals as well as on humans. Perhaps not so much on really strong enemies like Ming, but the weaker bosses are disabled for quite some time. Only disadvantage: you can't feed on puking humans.

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