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Jad.3
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PostSubject: Daytime in game   Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:55 am

Thought a timer could be added to screen, or a working clock around the map - the clocks sound better, actually. The night would last, lets say, 15 minutes, in which you'd have to go out, do your thing and get inside, if you don't want to greet the sun. Fortitude would help, if you have a habit of being late. The timer - clocks would reset, when you get in your appartment and "click" the bed; or it could be another 15 minutes of sewer crawling.

I realize it's for the far future at best, but what do you think anyway? What about missions? Also, PC could sparkle before seting on fire Wink
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ThePhilosopher
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:50 am

This one has been argued many times

First, the script needed to put it would be huge and difficult, if not impossible.

Secondly, the maps(of the sky) cannot be changed, so all you could possibly do (and i don't know if it's possible) is to increase the lightning in the entire hub, but if you looked at a certain angle you could still see the moon and a night sky.

Third, there's also the problem of the timer beign screwed up when the player enters/leaves one hub to another, or enter or leaves any building.

and most importantly Forth : This does nothing but TAKE AWAY something from the game, which is the free roam. while you could enjoy having to hide one or twice, and it does add realism, do you REALLY want to spend an entire game having to drop everything and hide every 15 minutes? At the middle of a quest, or when you're low on blood?. Even if you do, you gotta realize that casual players and even some hardcore players would hate it, i know i would.

Hope i helped.
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PGM1961
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:25 pm

I'm hardcore enough that I'd love a game where you had to watch the clock, and get under cover before the sun rises. But it's not going to be this one. Bloodlines is too limited. If they ever complete that Bloodlines: Resurgence project, and allow modders free rein to change what they please, then it would be nice to give that option at the start... "Do you want the daylight option?" But I don't even think the WODMMO will have daylight.
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:18 pm

PGM1961 wrote:
I'm hardcore enough that I'd love a game where you had to watch the clock, and get under cover before the sun rises. But it's not going to be this one. Bloodlines is too limited. If they ever complete that Bloodlines: Resurgence project, and allow modders free rein to change what they please, then it would be nice to give that option at the start... "Do you want the daylight option?" But I don't even think the WODMMO will have daylight.


Given that the WOD is adamant about the fact that Vampires can't stand the sun, it is obvious that it is better that both Redemption(who we all know used sunlight for all of one section of the game, and only because it says you couldn't deal with Luther Black otherwise), and Bloodlines, who avoided it entirely. In both these instances, it might not be realistic, but then, making it so would be quite the fun gimmick...at first. Then you just end up wondering why they bothered.

In some other games, where the character is specifically able to stand the sun, either because it only takes away their powers(i.e similar to some portrayals of Dracula), or you play as something like a half-Vampire(i.e a Dhampir), and it doesn't kill you instantly, it only stings(or rather chip very slowly at your health bar).
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:35 pm

I don't like the idea. It's way too interruptive to be fun.

Setting up a timer isn't too hard. Even adding a bit of time for taxi or sewer travel would not be a big problem. Idon't know about settting up a clock on the HUD. Probably the only thing possible there would be a countdown like the bomb timers at the Soc of Leopold, or the Sabbat warehouse.

Well, it's not me who has to think about it. I have no intention to put any sunlight into CE.

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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:10 pm

Childe of Malkav wrote:
Well, it's not me who has to think about it. I have no intention to put any sunlight into CE.

Probably for the best. It would probably be like the Nosferatu traveling through the sewers... at first, it's interesting, because it's new territory and a different experience from the other clans... but long before the end of the game, it turns into a major pain in the butt. Especially since I stubbornly refuse to run down the middle of the street, like some people. It might be far enough away from the pedestrians that you don't get a Masquerade violation, but it's unrealistic in game terms.

Even in PnP games, where you have to watch the clock and avoid the sunrise, once you're safe in your haven the storyteller just says, "Okay, time passes," and it's the next evening. If you had to wait around any time at all, it would be boring, and detract from the gaming experience. So I suppose it's best that I don't get my wish for daylight.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:29 pm

Well, doing something like clicking on the bed to jump forward in time to the next sundown isn't that hard to implement. But what do I do if there is about 5 minutes of nighttime left, and the only quest to do is the museum. It probably wouldn't take up too much time to go back to your haven, look into the email, have a quick dinner off Heather, and go to sleep. But it disrupts the gameflow, and you always have to make the choice "Can I do his quest in the time left?". Do I want to hurry through the Ocean house to get it over with, or do I wait till next night, so I have the time to do it properly, and enjoy the atmosphere... affraid

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8people
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:05 am

I must admit I never got the whole "go to your haven to skip time" thing people did in pnp, in the games I've run the havens have always been a part of the game as an extension of the characters and their development. If nothing else camarilla law gives you the upper hand in your own haven.

Waiting can be an interesting ST mechanic in pnp too, if used correctly. However computer games don't have the indulgence of a human being manipulating the scene for each player to enjoy correctly, the length would be arbitary rather than specific to the player actions and patience.
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Jad.3
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:56 pm

Point taken.
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redeyesandlonghair
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:24 pm

The sun is a myth. I've never seen it, so it doesn't exist. I mean really... a big ball of fire millions of times larger than the earth? That's a pretty big square. I don't believe it.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:50 pm

redeyesandlonghair wrote:
The sun is a myth. I've never seen it, so it doesn't exist. I mean really... a big ball of fire millions of times larger than the earth? That's a pretty big square. I don't believe it.

What are you talking about? The sun's nothing but Apollo's chariot. He drives it across the heavens when he's not playing the lyre or inspiring the oracle at Delphi...

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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:39 pm

8people i wholy agree

before bloodloss being instituted i remember always delighting it doing stuff at my haven like watching tv and listening to the radio, and it lasts a long while for the whole radio broadcast to recycle, and because news casts on tv are so random it lasts a long time before you are sure that any new news byte will only be a repeat of previous ones and not a new previously unheard one. and i also wouldn't mind checking all my emails even if there was none new. i even for example store the arm you get from gimble at the fridge and now useless plot items like victor crumbs license in the drawers. and regarding drawers i used to like to collect weapons, buy each and everyone of them, even if in the end i only went around with one of each category, so i would have to store unused ones in the drawers.

all this to say, believe it or not, such banal activities, that do not advance the plot in anyway, that can be described as chores, that you can do them in this game has always been paradoxically a great attractive to me. i don't mind interrupting the plot to do these chores.

so i wouldn't mind being forced to do them by daytime, having to retreat periodicaly to my haven by daylight, where i could execute them.

ooh someone mentioned, yes to chat with my ghoul!

and if like childe mentioned you could just opt to go to bed and sleep....

or wander around the sewers feeding on mice....

or thoroughly exploring a building where you previously had a quest, maybe you were too busy with combat to be sure you had found everything....

so many things to do.....

as it is, i agree with red eyes, the sun is a myth......
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:23 pm

I agree with most of what you wrote, but one thing. During daylight, Kindred are overcome by slumber. Between sunup and sundown all a honest Kindred does is to sleep. Unless we are speaking of a Cainite on a Path of Enlightment...
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:32 pm

Well, I'm around for some millennia now. And I have never seen the sun. It must be a myth.

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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:31 pm

Hmm well we can't due without empirical evidence though. Why don't you all stay up tomorrow and be sure?
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:35 pm

Velvet wrote:
so i wouldn't mind being forced to do them by daytime, having to retreat periodicaly to my haven by daylight, where i could execute them.

Not to bring up this old topic again but I agree with Velvet here. I do enjoy the remedial things in Bloodlines. In fact, I still walk through the streets of the hubs instead of run just so I blend in with everyone else. Do I need too? Of course not, the AI doesn't care if I run or walk, but I do. I also take all the plot items (like purses, diaries, and licenses) back to my haven and store them in the drawers. Why? Because I don't want their items linking me to crimes. Would it? Of course not but it makes for a more fun and real experience for me.

As far as the daylight thing goes, if it were up to me and I had the time, I would definitely implement this, however I would implement it in a different way from the ways I've heard so far.

First the counter would be more like an hour of real time play, not 15 minutes, that's WAAAY too short and disruptive. Two, the player would need to get back to their haven in time except when on a mission that prevents it (Grout's Mansion or Museum). In the case with those quests, the timer would stop running while in the mission and then when the player completes it, you would have 5 minutes left to get back to your haven. Sure time is skewed a little during that time but it shouldn't be a big deal.

Anyways, I would like this to increase immersion as long as it doesn't disrupt the flow of the game and create another chore.
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:55 pm

I see no reason for it. If it's every 15 minutes, it's annoying. If it's every hour, it's so rare to serve only to say it exists.
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:14 pm

If you want to implement something like a daylight timer, you also have to take care of travel time between hubs. I don't believe that either the LA cabbies or the Sewer Department have invented the Transporter yet. At least I don't recall calling the cabbie "Scotty", or "Chief O'Brian." Laughing

And I do agree with the Philosopher, 15 min. is way too interruptive, and an hour is an eternity. Also you have to take into account that dialogs need to be slowed down to real (i.e. real for the player) time, while the rest of the game moves on a much faster, but not constant, time frame.

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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:57 am

two totally off the cuff ideas:

indeed subjective time alters. it seems to drag forever when we are bored and to fly when we are entertained, and in instances of extreme stress drag to a crawl. it makes sense that the clock alters, whether we are merely walking along in the streets or engaged in dialogue that is relevant or engaged in action in a mission.

but why do we need to be back in our havens at night? any indoors should do it! so what we are caught by daylight in grout's mansion? wait grout's mansion, the end scene, does demand that we leave it in haste, no? but only after a climatic action, examining grout's body, isn't it? my point is, we can be anywhere indoors, i mean if an mission takes us indoors to the inside of a building and we are caught by daylight while performing it, it is a question of remaining indoors after completing the business that led us ther and wait for night fall to return to the streets.

but yeah i can see how it would become either disruptive or unrealistic.... needing to stay indoors inside of a building where a mission led us after concluding our busniess there just because it is daylight outside.... or all those speeding up and slowing down and even interrupting of the clock....

but one last thing.
someone mentioned sewers. i don't see why we couldn't wait out daylight inside the sewers. they must be as lightproof as anywhere in the game gets. and we even have rats to go on feeding while we wait, to offset bloodloss.....

because no one has mentioned this issue: bloodloss. if daylight inplies that we can do nothing, that includes feeding, but we go on blood loss, growing ever hungrier and hungrier but unable to do anything for it..........
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:02 am

This is a very interesting discussion, so I hope no one minds if I chime in with my two cents worth...

First off, the thing I like about Bloodlines so much that makes it a game worth playing repeatedly even after 7 years is that it does a fantastic job of capturing the very essence of what Vampire the Masquerade is supposed to be all about. Sure, it skimps on a few important details, and your options are fairly limited, but as far as a basic FPS-type video game goes, I thought they did a fantastic job recreating the feel--the soul--of the World of Darkness.

However, I think adding daylight would completely detract from the experience. The source books are quite clear on the issue: vampires are asleep during the day. I mean, the Tremere even have rituals to temporarily counter the consequences of simply being awake during the day, nevermind the direct sunlight issue. Considering all the fairly hokey ways you can die in Bloodlines (getting beat up enough, I mean, come on! Where's torpor?) I think that unless a truly ingenious method were devised, daytime would just cause more pain than pleasure for this game.

But nobody asked me, so I'll just go back to my park and watch the moonlight.
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:05 am

Maybe it doesn't have to be so hard, what about using an old cutscene from Redemption (when you are entering the tower) and play it when you first move to a new place like chinatown or hollywood, just to have the feeling that you slept when you first arrived and that the night is fresh.
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:37 am

Well first off, I'm never going to implement daylight in TFN so no worries there for those who don't want it. I was just making discussion on how it could be done so it's in the game but not obtrusive. As far as Nosferatu's Childe's idea, that could actually work and still give the player the sense that all of this isn't just happening over one night. That's not a bad idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:32 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:
As far as Nosferatu's Childe's idea, that could actually work and still give the player the sense that all of this isn't just happening over one night. That's not a bad idea.

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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:43 pm

Nosferatu are crafty Laughing
I would like to have daylight in the game. But, and that is a big one, I think it would get annoying over time. It was done OK in Redemption: not to much, not to little. Exactly when it made sense. Fighting Lasombra elder at night = aggrevated suicide lol! Even if said Lasombra was suicidal...
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PostSubject: Re: Daytime in game   Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:47 pm

I like the idea of adding daylight, to give things more of a sense of urgency. But I'm also a fan of Nosferatu's Childe's idea about having a cutscene for sunrise, and for sunset, and the day is over. If you're basically comatose (we won't say dead) during the daytime, you won't realize time is passing anyway. So waiting 15 min. OR an hour doesn't make sense.

Also, as regards the blood loss timer... if daylight is implemented, I expect that the timer will go bye-bye, and be replaced by the standard one blood point when you 'wake up'. The blood timer is a substitute for daylight, and if daylight comes, the timer should go.

Of course, no offense, but I have my doubts that any of this is possible. It's hard enough for modders to make minor changes, without adding an additional cutscene every so often. But if you want to prove me wrong, go for it. Smile
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