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 The Invisible Inventory Issue.

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redeyesandlonghair
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PostSubject: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:01 pm

I'm sure that I'm about to make all sorts of unreasonable demands that are impossible to satisfy, but that's what my kind does isn't it? Fantastic.

So one thing has always bothered me about the inventory system in VtM:B, and similar inventory styles in other games. And that is, that here I am, this perfectly lovely little Malkavian girl, with my little cheerleader outfit, and my panties peeking out my mini-skirt. However, I have a dirty little secret... a terribly dirty little secret, that makes the form my Malksanity has taken quite apparent.

Crammed into my various undead orifices I have a shotgun, a large dirty-hairy style revolver, a Mac-10, a grenade launcher, a sledge-hammer, an extra set of clothing, various books and papers, a pile of ammunition, a few other miscellaneous items, and a stake I found on the beach. Let me tell you, keeping that stake from working it's way through my body to my heart takes some muscle control (good thing I keigled all those years).

I'll give you a moment to cool down from that. Wink

So I guess you can see what I mean by the Invisible Inventory Issue. I have all these... things, but only two of them are ever anything but invisible and incorporeal; the weapon I am wielding, and the clothes that I am wearing. This is nothing new to video games, of course, but every time I see it in a game it bugs me. But here, it seems to matter more to me for some reason.

One reason is that vampires, for the most part, try to avoid calling attention to themselves. An invisible inventory sure makes that easy, but I feel like I'm getting away with murder by not having to care that someone might notice the arsenal I'm heaving about. If I were to go out on the street right now with a shotgun in my hands, the first cop that saw me would try to arrest me immediately, and probably shoot me if I didn't comply.

Also, carrying all this stuff and then sneaking about like a ninja-in-pajamas seems a bit off. Even if I'm the most agile creature of the night, shouldn't all these worldly possessions be clacking and banging about, making my presence less than undetectable?

So, now that I've babbled on about what I'm talking about, let's make a list.


[1] The more full your inventory gets, especially with weapons, the less stealthy you become (increasing penalties to stealth).

[2] Having large weapons that couldn't be easily concealed (say, under a skirt or shirt) should make police officers and other npcs react as if you had just fired off a weapon, as soon as they see you. In addition, running around with a weapon equipped and in-hand should have the same effect.

[3] The higher level armors, which generally tend to be more concealing, could mitigate a certian number of weapons for the purposes of [2]. The equivelant of tucking a shotgun and/or a sword under your trenchcoat. OR, perhaps a universal-outfit called "Combat Trenchcoat" that exists in addition to the regular armors.

[4] Weapons physically appear on your character while uneqquipped; who wouldn't love to look like a walking arsenal when, according to their inventory, they are in-fact one.

[5] Some sort of relationship between Strength, movement speed, and inventory load.


Again, I realize that some of these are unreasonable, due to the amount of effort they may require of you, or downright impossible, due to how the game-engine for vtmb functions. They're just some ideas to add a bit of tactical motivation and masquerade-flavor to the inventory system, especially for stealth-oriented characters (the type I, coincidentally [I swear, complete coincidence {no ulterior motives here whatsoever}] like to play).

Thank you for taking the time to read this (if you did; if you didn't, then who am I typing to?). And thank you for your continuing efforts in the creation of this mod.


P.S. Someone really should force Activision to hire you guys to make a sequel to vtmb. And if not, then I hope you're planning on becoming proffessional video-game developers, because what you're doing here would make one hell of an addition to a resume.

P.S.S. I am a fish.

~Foxi
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:03 pm

Welcome to the forum, redeyes. It is always good to see new blood Twisted Evil. We have lots of malk roleplayers around here, i'm sure you'll fit in nicely.

You see, there's only too problems with your ideas

1) They TAKE AWAY things from the game. Remember this is a game and not a real life complete simulation(duh), so some rules and some realism must be broken in order for a better gaming experience. I'm sure many here, including me, would really hate be restricted to 1-2 guns and 1-2 weapons and one clothing at the inventory at the same time.

2) If you desire to play a restricted inventory yourself, it is actually pretty simple. Open up your chest at your haven and unload everything you don't wish.

Considering this, i must say i hope your idea doesn't get approved, and even if it would, Zer0 would probably have to make it opitional or create a way to reverse this change(and only in 1.1).

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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:14 am

Welcome to the forum, redeyesandlonghair!

I have joked and/or ranted about this in various forums, for years. I even made pretty much the same comments about where the female Malk is hiding her rifles, too (although the remark about the Kegel exercises was new, and very amusing). Very Happy

Unfortunately, the Bloodlines game engine is probably too inflexible to make most of these suggestions work, although the penalty to stealth is reasonable, and might not be too difficult. The attention from police when you run around with a drawn weapon also sounds reasonable, although I know my luck, and I would probably draw their attention by equipping my fists, and forgetting to unequip them since it doesn't look like I have a weapon drawn.

Having weapons appear on your body though... I don't see this happening, since the game engine is not set up for that, and I believe it would take a major rewrite to accomplish. If anyone could do that, we would've had totally new content in the game long ago.

I like that the heavier clothing/armor would offset the stealth penalty for the weapons. It makes sense; you may be more restricted in your movements, but you could hide more weapons on your body. I already do what Philodopher suggested, though: I empty my inventory of most unnecessary items, including weapons. At the end of the game, all I'm carrying are the Tal'mahe'Ra blade, the flamethrower, and the Spas 15; and I'm wearing heavy clothing (or even the body armor). Realistically, this is probably still pushing it; but compared to normal video game arsenals, I'm barely armed. Smile

However, Philosopher is right-- it's a game, and we have to suspend a little disbelief to make it work. Implementing every one of your ideas would bog down the game a little, and we don't need that. Too much new stuff makes the game overly complicated, and reduces the immersion factor... Zer0, don't take offense, but some of your ideas for TFN have the potential to do the same thing, if carried too far. A lot of ideas are logical in terms of the real world, and make perfect sense; but I don't play this game for its ultra-realism.

Anyway, maybe the WODMMO will have some of these ideas incorporated into it, specifically the need to conceal weapons, to avoid police attention. (Or sneak them into a rival's lair.) I can hope. It would be funny to see someone used to an 'invisible inventory' draw police attention, due to the shotgun and katana he's carrying around, slung on his back.
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:13 am

Hi, Redeyes,
welcome to the suckers Twisted Evil Thought you were a lone wolf Gangrel, judging by your name Wink

I think on the same lines about the inventory. Where does pretty Malk girl hide the rifle under her mini skirt? scratch
But on the other hand, I can also see Philosopher'sa point of view: This is a game, so blast some realism...

And I do not have the faintest idea how to program another inventory system. Well thinking on it now, it might be possible to write a python function that keeps track of what you're carrying, and reduces your stealth, and perhaps social skills like seduction as well, if you carry too much weapons around. But the graphics would be the hell to do, even if possible at all.
Armor is even more of a problem. AFAIK in the vanilla game, it was possible to drop the armor items except for the light clothing. But this was cut off by Wesp due to an exploitable bug: If you were wearing the heavy clothes, and then dropped them off, the model would switch to light clothes, but the stats would keep the armor rating. Then if you pick up and don the heavy clothes again, your armor rating gets upped another point... See the problem?

For this reason I go the same way PGM describes: nobody forces you to carry all kinds of stuff, just because you can. Well, it's easy for me as I usually play the sneaky type anyway, and my preferred weapons are the knife and the Glock. Up to Chinatown, I don't need anything else, and there I buy the Uzi. While I can't hide that under the pretty chearleader blouse, it would easily fit in a shopping bag, or a large handbag, so no real trouble there.

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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:16 am

Well yeah, is funny to see a big-ass ammo-crate around Santa Monica's warehouse and the PC is just unloading it in every pocket.

I believe every RPG game embraces the "hunter-gatherer" style.

It's not a big deal anyway, it can be really stupid if the game may refer to someone involved into any action handling a stock/amount of something while the PC carries around (same/a bit more) ammo for a whole regiment cyclops.
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:51 am

Foxi,

First off I must say that your post, as lengthy as it was, was incredibly entertaining and well written, I had a lot of fun reading it! I do hope to see more posts from you in the future, you make reading fun! Very Happy

With that said, I have to admit that not only do I understand where you’re coming from on the whole Inventory issue for Bloodlines, but I think this extends to MANY RPGs and is a fatal flaw for most of them. I’m all for realism which is probably why I enjoy playing Bethesda’s sandbox style games so much. In fact for Fallout and Oblivion, I turned off fast travel because it wasn’t realistic enough and though I found myself walking for miles and it was boring, I accepted it because it was realistic.

After reading some of the other posts here, it’s apparent that not everyone shares our enthusiasm for realism which is understandable. At some point you have to find a balance between "realism vs. this is a video game" to hopefully cater to the majority. Let’s go over your list and see what can and cannot be done from a technical standpoint and a “Is this really fun” standpoint.

1) Well Troika did something similar with the weight of your armor by penalizing your Dexterity, which made sense. Given how they implemented armor however I think it was a silly rule but they had the right idea. From a technical standpoint I think this COULD be achieved through python scripting but it would be complex and messy. When it comes down to it, I don’t think this would really have the impact intended and would probably end up pissing off more players than not.

2) Because the weapon isn’t visibly seen on the character, I think this is a bad idea because I would think many players would forget their carrying a large weapon or might’ve accidently picked one up so they could sell it for cash. If the weapons appeared on the player’s model then I think this could work nicely but being how it is, I wouldn’t implement this. Is it possible from a technical standpoint? I think it COULD be done yes.

3) Going back to [2], if the weapons appeared on the player’s model then yes this would be another good idea. If only we were using the Gamebryo engine and not the Source engine.

4) I totally wish this was possible, from a technical standpoint I can honestly say for fact that this will never happen with how Bloodlines is right now. Excellent idea obviously.

5) Now when you say “a relationship between Strength, movement speed, and inventory load”, I instantly think Strength = How many weapons you can carry. I actually kind of like that idea. The movement speed being affected by inventory load would upset players too much including myself, but saying you can only carry 1 Gun and 1 Melee weapon per point in strength could be effective. This would frustrate physically weaker players because selling loot for cash is one of the best ways to make money in TFN, so the weaker players would have to make a lot more trips to sell the weapons after a battle. But it does add a new element of strategy on how you want to build your character. I love games where checks and balances play a big factor in strategy, and where you can’t be good at “everything”.

I was having an idea similar to yours in that having your weapon out and drawn could instigate a police violation similar to firing a weapon. Having your fists drawn should never incur a penalty but I think some guy walking around town with a SPAS-15 would get some attention. From a technical standpoint I think this COULD be possible, assuming the code is written properly. This may be something I look at strongly for 1.1.

I really appreciated this post and it was full of good ideas, half of which I wish I could implement. Also your post was entertaining and had me cracking up several times! Also thank you for the Activision compliment at the end, I hope that you enjoy playing the end product.

By the way, are you really a Fish? *gurgle gurgle* Razz
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:32 pm

ThePhilosopher wrote:

2) If you desire to play a restricted inventory yourself, it is actually pretty simple. Open up your chest at your haven and unload everything you don't wish.


I already do that. I have a set of "special rules" that I implement for myself, depending on the amount of Strength my character has and the appearance of the clothing I have on, which govern what I'm allowed to carry, if I'm allowed to unequip it without dropping it on the ground, and in some cases I am required to fire off my weapon in public places to alert the police that there's a maniac with a shotgun running around. This is similar to what I did in the Elder Scrolls and Fallout games. These rules are partly for immersion, partly for difficulty.

Quite frankly, however, it's just a lot more fun if these functions are built into the game and I can feel clever about the decisions I make regarding what I take with me; I understand not everyone cares so much about the tactical aspects of games.

As far as point 1, I don't consider it taking away from the game... what is it taking away, the ability to hold a bunch of stuff? Personally I'd take the immersion factor of having to pick-and-choose; but like you said, not everyone cares for immersion and just wants to have everything on hand all the time.

As far as making the system optional, if Zer0 could do that then I'm sure he'd be jumping for joy with rainbows shooting out of every orifice. Imagine if you could pick and choose the various elements you wanted represented in the game and not have to suffer the weight of "majority rules". If such a thing were possible, I'm sure Zer0 would ram it into the game harder than an out-of-work plumber rams a...well I'll just stop there.

Zer0Morph wrote:

I really appreciated this post and it was full of good ideas, half of which I wish I could implement. Also your post was entertaining and had me cracking up several times! Also thank you for the Activision compliment at the end, I hope that you enjoy playing the end product.

By the way, are you really a Fish? *gurgle gurgle*

Well, as long as something fun came of it, then I'm happy. Maybe down the road revelations about modding the game will make themselves known and you'll be able to do all sorts of wonderous things.

And yes, I am a fish, and I resent the implication!

-Foxi
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:01 pm

redeyesandlonghair wrote:
And yes, I am a fish, and I resent the implication!

-Foxi

Hey now! I LOVE Fish!!!..... at the end of my fork.. lol Razz
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:41 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:
redeyesandlonghair wrote:
And yes, I am a fish, and I resent the implication!

-Foxi

Hey now! I LOVE Fish!!!..... at the end of my fork.. lol Razz

So YOU are the chef? Just be careful that tuna doesn't turn out to be sharky Razz

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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:47 pm

Are you guys just arguing for the halibut? You're giving me a haddock.
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:05 am

PGM1961 wrote:
Are you guys just arguing for the halibut? You're giving me a haddock.

OH...EM...GEE!!! Now that was clever old man! LOL Razz
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:29 am

Yes, redeyes, that's exactly what it takes away from the game. You get the stress of having to always choose your weapons before a quest/battle/purchase, and will never be able to have "backup" weapons in case you run out of ammunition, or be able to use one firearm while you save a special one for the boss.

Personally, you would take the immersion factor. And many would agree with you
Personally, I would take the gaming experience factor. And many would agree with me.

But not to speak on number terms (sincerely i believe more would agree with me than with you, because not everyone "get's down deep" on their character, but i can't prove it), i'll speak on conviniency terms

Those who care more for immersion can simply put their stash on the haven, if under the Large Inventory Rules.
Those who care more for gaming experience can do nothing to avoid the Restrictive Inventory Rules, if so is approved.

Basically, on the rules that are now, it satisfies those who care about experience and can be easily avoided by those who care about immersion. On the rules that you are proposing, it satisfies those who care about immersion but it would frustrate and annoy those who care about experience the entire game, and it would not be avoidable.

P.S : For a minute there i wondered if i posted on the correct topic, with you guys doing funny stuff XD. Also i didn't get your joke again, PGM. There must be something wrong with me Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:58 am

ThePhilosopher wrote:

P.S : For a minute there i wondered if i posted on the correct topic, with you guys doing funny stuff XD. Also i didn't get your joke again, PGM. There must be something wrong with me Shocked

Fish puns. headache = haddock = variety of fish. "for the halibut" = "for the hell of it" (halibut being another type of fish).

Nothing wrong with you. Puns (i.e. the humorous use of words that sound similar but mean different things) require a high level of understanding of that language, and is hard for non-native speakers. I speak some Spanish, but I probably would not get puns in that language... I'd just wonder what they were talking about.

Perhaps it was shellfish (selfish) of me to assume everyone would understand. Zer0Morph is probably going into shark (shock) from fish pun overload. Eel just have to deal with it.

Of course, none of this will be funny now, because the first rule of comedy is that if you have to explain the joke, it's not a joke. Very Happy

And I agree with you... I can always limit my inventory, but forcing everyone to do it wouldn't be fair.
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:09 am

PGM1961 wrote:
...Fish puns. headache = haddock = variety of fish. "for the halibut" = "for the hell of it" (halibut being another type of fish).
...
And I agree with you... I can always limit my inventory, but forcing everyone to do it wouldn't be fair.

Well, I got the haddock at once, but the halibut gave me one...

So what you're basically saying is: a limited inventory, if even possible, should be optional content. I agree on this.

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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:26 pm

Out of all of the ideas I've heard in this thread, and the responses they've gotten I've come up with 2 potential new rules that could be worth implementing. Before I spend time doing any of them I want to hear what everyone has to say about it. Of course none of this would make it into 1.0.

1) Drawn Weapons in Public - If you have any ranged weapon, including the flamethrower and crossbows, or if you have any of the large weapons drawn like the sledgehammer or bush hook -AND- you are in a public place (ie: the main hubs, or places like Empire Arms Hotel), then the police violation alarm goes off and the police are called.

2) The number of weapons you can carry depend on Strength. You can carry one melee and one ranged weapon per point of Strength. So if you have a level 3 Strength, then you can carry 3 melee and 3 ranged weapons.

Now I don't know if these rules can be scripted or not but I have an idea on where to start. Of course if you guys don't even like these rules then I won't bother even looking. Let me know...

PGM1961 wrote:

Fish puns. headache = haddock = variety of fish. "for the halibut" = "for the hell of it" (halibut being another type of fish).

Nothing wrong with you. Puns (i.e. the humorous use of words that sound similar but mean different things) require a high level of understanding of that language, and is hard for non-native speakers. I speak some Spanish, but I probably would not get puns in that language... I'd just wonder what they were talking about.

Perhaps it was shellfish (selfish) of me to assume everyone would understand. Zer0Morph is probably going into shark (shock) from fish pun overload. Eel just have to deal with it.

All of these fish puns are driving me into fish pun overload!!! affraid

I understood every joke and loved them all, in fact I've begun writing a book based on the humor of PGM1961!!!
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:17 pm

I think both ideas you have mentioned would add immersion and make sense. So they are worth implementing into 1.1


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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:58 pm

i really like number 1, it makes sense and can't ruin the game for anyone(hopefuly)
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:43 pm

Option 1, man !
Altough I don't know where the Malky character in her cheerleader outfit hides her stuff Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:04 pm

Hm, playing with a gun in the hotel lobby getting some attention sounds like a good idea.

But I wouldn't base a limitation on numbers alone. Better would be, if you could include the weapon's size and weight as well. It's easier to carry and conceal a knife and a Glock than a bushhook and a flamethrower with spare fueltank.

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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:30 pm

Sounds nice to me but please make sure you put some tips about it cause I will definitely forget Very Happy Also many of the players that do not visit the forum and would not be aware of the new rules as well.
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:40 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:

I understood every joke and loved them all, in fact I've begun writing a book based on the humor of PGM1961!!!

Unfortunately, it will be a serious dramatic book, with very little sex or action to redeem it. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:17 pm

I feel i won't enjoy either of these possible rules, zero. However if i HAD to chose one, i'd chose rule 1 over rule 2 any day of the week.
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:20 am

I think Rule No. 1 does make sense and doesn't limit the player too much (if you're running around with a gun drawn in public, you deserve to be slapped on the head), but I couldn't make friends with Rule No. 2. If I ever raise my Strength for a character, I don't keep a lot of weapons around - either I fight with bare fists or I have one weapon I actually use, everything else goes to the dumpster. But if I'm playing a ranged-orientated character, I tend to keep a lot of guns around, and the occasinal knife, just in case I run out of ammunition.
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:28 pm

ThePhilosopher wrote:
I feel i won't enjoy either of these possible rules, zero. However if i HAD to chose one, i'd chose rule 1 over rule 2 any day of the week.

Well first off, none of these rules will even be looked at until version 1.1 and I still don't know if it's even technically possible to do. Lastly, (IF) I decided to try and set it up I will want to have others test it to make sure it's fun and is implemented well. If you want, I can have you test it and see how you like it before a final decision is made whether or not to put it in the game.

Eliza wrote:
But if I'm playing a ranged-orientated character, I tend to keep a lot of guns around, and the occasinal knife, just in case I run out of ammunition.
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I used to keep multiple guns around too because the ammunition carrying cap was so low I would run out of ammo before any large mission was over, where I couldn't go back and stock up on more. This has been greatly changed, the ammo carrying capacity has been greatly increased by most if not all ranged weapons (except crossbows and flame throwers) so this will no longer be an issue.
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:03 pm

I like both 1 & 2! How strange.... oh wait that's not strange at all.

There seems to be more support for this sort of thing than first thought... from people at least, not so much support from programming code (and the code is ussualy such a fun-loving friend).

Anyways, ya... I'll mention my love of tactical decisions again...

Also, the idea of restricting what you can carry goes along the same idea as restricting how many skills you can max out. It adds replay value.

If you play a low-strength character one game, you will notice a much bigger difference in what you can do when you play a high-strength character. (Steve Urkel vs Rambo)
Maybe one game you decided to carry a shotgun most of the time. Then the next game, you carry an assault rifle with you instead. It's a small difference, but it helps to differentiate one game from the next. Yes, again, I realize I can do this artificially by firing up my imagination and pretending I have to do it, but it's just not as satisfying, and never will be. Being tied up and whipped is a lot different than standing there and letting someone whip you.

Now, about the idea that the current system satisfies everyone by letting them pretend that game works differently than it does. Don't piss on my cat and tell me I'm horny. Or do, he's not a very good cat. Being forced to work within a system is what makes it fun. You get to feel clever for doing what you're doing; it adds a certian strategic puzzle element to the game. I know that's not everyone's thing, but the v:tm brand in general has always struck me as being more about deep roleplaying, and I have this strange demand that all things related to it be of the same ilk. Again, little checkboxes would be wonderful.

Also, I'm not proposing these ideas to make the game acceptable to everyone... primarily, I'm proposing these ideas to make the game more fun for me... so yeah, I'm selfish like that, but at the same time I have a firm belief that if these things are implemented, everyone involved will realize "Hey, that selfish tardburger was actually right, having to make decisions and dealing with the benefits and consequences of those decisions is actually a lot of fun! I should totally go tell them they're right... after I play this extremely fun game for a few thousand hours... yeah... do what now?"

After all, we're not playing V:tMB/TFN because its 'a game where you can go around with a bunch of guns and be a walking arsenal'...there's about a million games like that out there. We're playing this game because it's the best video game representation of V:tM (or heck, the vampire genre in general) on the planet, with a real feel for the WoD series' "realism", so why not try to get as much of that going as possible?

P.S. - I didn't understand any of those jokes earlier... you people are all insane, and you better give me back my jacket.

-Foxi
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PostSubject: Re: The Invisible Inventory Issue.   Today at 7:16 pm

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The Invisible Inventory Issue.
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