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lofgren
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PostSubject: stamina increase bloodpool   Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:03 pm

I know I am just brimming with ideas here recently, and since I am not a modder I have no clue how to evaluate their practicality, so take of them what you will and ignore the rest.

However, I was thinking that it would be cool if increasing stamina could increase the bloodpool. You could feel justified at that point either increasing the rate that the bloodpool degenerates or starting characters with even less blood.

Non-melee characters who use their blood as a major source of damage (e.g. tremere) would also by nature have more points to spend on stamina because they would be saving all of their points from strength, melee, and brawl. That could help even out some inherent imbalances between the buff-based abilities and the targeted abilities.
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:59 pm

Ok here's the dilly-yo on Bloodpool modifying...

You CAN modify how much blood you have in your bloodpool, the only problem is the UI will not reflect these changes. Meaning this, if you raise the bloodpool from the default of 15, let's say you set the bloodpool to 20, you WILL have 20 bloodpoints, however the first 5 you use will not be reflected in the bloodmeter.

So lets say you have 20 bloodpoints, you use 1 and it will still show you as having a full bloodbar. You use 3 more and it sitll shows you having a full bloodbar. Not until you drop down to 14 points will you ever know that you lost any blood. This will become a problem when you want to fill yourself up with blood but you aren't sure when you cap out. So you could have only 15 bloodpoints, or maybe 20, either way it will look the same.

Now on the otherside of the coin, let's say you reduce your bloodpoints to 10, the bloodbar will cap out at 10 visually but the player will think oh hey I still have more blood to fill, and will get frustrated when they can't get a full vial of blood.

We thought about this for awhile and decided against it because of the confusion it would cause.
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:14 pm

In my humble opinion if you want to play with a more reduced/increased blood pool it would be nearly as effective to just tinker with the rate of natural blood loss. (Please forgive my atrocious lack of vocabulary when it comes to WoD and stuff in general.) I am pretty sure I saw elsewhere on this forum how to tinker with the rate of blood loss over time.
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:33 pm

Golgotha wrote:
In my humble opinion if you want to play with a more reduced/increased blood pool it would be nearly as effective to just tinker with the rate of natural blood loss. (Please forgive my atrocious lack of vocabulary when it comes to WoD and stuff in general.) I am pretty sure I saw elsewhere on this forum how to tinker with the rate of blood loss over time.

Ya, its in the game manual too... affraid
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:53 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:
Golgotha wrote:
In my humble opinion if you want to play with a more reduced/increased blood pool it would be nearly as effective to just tinker with the rate of natural blood loss. (Please forgive my atrocious lack of vocabulary when it comes to WoD and stuff in general.) I am pretty sure I saw elsewhere on this forum how to tinker with the rate of blood loss over time.

Ya, its in the game manual too... affraid

It's not "nearly as effective" in any way. I have tinkered with the bloodloss, because I felt it was too slow.

However, naturally increasing the total bloodpool by increasing stamina is a totally different thing. Craving remains the same, but the total blood you can carry is greater. That's more disciplines you can use, and a way for you to spend XP in order to increase your "mana."

In the abilities thread we are discussing making stamina reduce the craving, which is probably a better way of accomplishing something similar. But it's not the same by any stretch.
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:40 pm

The more I think about it, the more I'm liking the idea of "Higher Stamina" = "Slower Bloodloss". I'm going to run this past burgermeister01 and see what he can do from a scripting standpoint.
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:47 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:
Golgotha wrote:
...I am pretty sure I saw elsewhere on this forum how to tinker with the rate of blood loss over time.

Ya, its in the game manual too... affraid

Glad to the chance to say RTFM, weren't you? Wink

And I should add, reading this manual is not a waste of time.

Sorry couldn't resist geek
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:19 am

Childe of Malkav wrote:
Zer0Morph wrote:
Golgotha wrote:
...I am pretty sure I saw elsewhere on this forum how to tinker with the rate of blood loss over time.

Ya, its in the game manual too... affraid

Glad to the chance to say RTFM, weren't you? Wink

And I should add, reading this manual is not a waste of time.

Sorry couldn't resist geek

HAHA Childe, your silly! lol!

I've got some good news everyone! Childe of Malkav emailed me a test script for the Stamina controlled Bloodtimer. It wasn't perfect but put us in the right direction. I got together with Burgermeister01 and he helped me program the proper code so that now Stamina dictates how quickly you loose blood.

Here's how it's going to work, and I'll update the Stamina description for the character sheet so others can see how it works...

If you Level X Stamina
Stamina 1: 4:00 Bloodloss
Stamina 2: 4:30 Bloodloss
Stamina 3: 5:00 Bloodloss
Stamina 4: 5:30 Bloodloss
Stamina 5: 6:00 Bloodloss

Note: In CE 1.2 all stat caps have been raised to 20, so technically you could get your Bloodloss time all the way up to 13 1/2 minutes if you had a Stamina of 20 lol.

Burgermeister01 and I felt a default Bloodloss of 4 minutes was suitable, and increasing the time by 50% with a level 5 Stamina was a fantastic reward for pursuing Stamina.

What do you guys think?

PS: Everyone thank Lofgren for the idea, and Thank Child of Malkav for the support! cheers
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:52 am

Sounds perfect to me.

I have the craving set at 1/4 minutes right now, which in my opinion keeps things interesting without making the game a tedious search for my next meal. It's just noticeable enough that I might be willing to spend a point or two to be able to think about it less, but probably not more than that unless I was using a lot of targeted disciplines. That seems about right to me. After all, we don't want to make the game annoying or impossible by having the craving too great, but it shouldn't be so easy you can totally ignore it if your stamina is too high.

Although I really can't take credit for the idea.
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:10 am

Oops my apologies, I had to go back and read the other thread, I guess Childe was the one who proposed this idea. Either way you both have been a big help with ideas for CE 1.2. Actually quite a few members have really stepped up with some awesome stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:02 pm

I was thinking:

Could/should stamina also increase the rate of passive healing?
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:47 pm

Great job Zer0Morph. I have the feeling that if we give you enough time, you and the other modders will be able to edit/fix absolutely everything in this game!
Your team's progress is AWESOME!
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:54 pm

lofgren wrote:
I was thinking:

Could/should stamina also increase the rate of passive healing?

Hmmm, it is a good idea though I would be afraid it may make Stamina a bit of an overpowered stat. It already adds to soak bash and now Bloodloss, if we add to passive healing wouldn't that be a bit of an "Uber" stat?

Your thoughts anyone?

YamiRaziel wrote:
Great job Zer0Morph. I have the feeling that if we give you enough time, you and the other modders will be able to edit/fix absolutely everything in this game!
Your team's progress is AWESOME!

Hey Thanks YamiRaziel! The Camarilla Team really hasn't been around since 1.1, at this point all of you who sit around and think up ideas and post them ARE the new CE team.

By this point CE has turned more into a community project than anything else, I ran out of ideas a month ago so I'm really glad all of these fresh minds have jumped in to take up the torch. Very Happy

Honestly I just sit around reading posts and test all of your ideas behind the scenes to see if it would work and how it would work. If it DOES work and fits well into the overall CE vision then I announce it and post pictures. I can't think of the last time I had a good idea of my own, HAHA!
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:54 am

I don't think it would make stamina an uber stat. I have been playing with the craving set to 4 (i.e. 1 blood point/4 minutes), and I have very rarely wanted for blood. I was thinking that when 1.2 comes out I would probably set the craving to start at 3 and decrease with stamina to 5.

I'm not sure I would recommend that change for the general release though. It might make the game annoying for casual players. Personally I rather enjoy how a high craving makes the source of my next meal something to consider. Typically before and after a lengthy mission I have to go out for a meal to keep my blood count decent. A lot of times I find the hunt more fun than the mission, but other players may not agree.

So while I would not recommend increasing the craving beyond 4-6, I still found that a craving of less than 4 was nothing more than a convenience, rather than an actual advantage in game play. On the other hand, I did find that I missed my rapid healing quite a lot. It was no use increasing the blood heal discipline because it only increased duration (which was also nice but not the same).

Basically decreasing craving is cool, but it really just makes the game more convenient for the player rather than providing the character with any kind of actual advantage.
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:10 am

Ya 4-6 seems very balanced for the casual player, 3-5 Blood loss would probably be a little quick for most.

I didn't know if you knew this or not but Blood Heal got reworked for 1.2. In 1.2 as you level up in Blood Heal you not only get the higher duration but also a slight regeneration speed increase. By the time you get it up to level 5, Blood Heal will become an incredibly powerful defensive ability and paired up with another defensive power, your character will be tough to stop (IE Fortitude or Presence).

Imagine a Ventrue with level 5 Fortitude, Presence, AND Blood Heal, yikes!
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:42 am

... and now imagine that ventrue against a Gangrel with protean, animalism, and bloodbuf Cool That will be fun to watch
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:55 am

I honestly don't know who would win that one? If the Ventrue had a sword "maybe" he could destroy the Gangrel before the Gangrel destroyed him. That would be a fun match to watch.
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:13 am

OK, I didn't realize that blood heal had been reworked. Probably better not to change the passive healing then.

It's a tough call, I think. I rather like the idea that increasing the rate of healing and the duration of healing are two different stats, but on the other hand increasing the rate of healing is a very powerful ability and probably should cost some blood.
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:29 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:
Imagine a Ventrue with level 5 Fortitude, Presence, AND Blood Heal, yikes!
And having spent 150xp for that.

And now imagine him puking his blood into a Tremeres BloodPurge with the Tremere protected by Bloodform. And that's only Thaumaturgy 3.
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:21 am

Wouldn't a Gangrel with just animalism and protean already have +22 to his unarmed attacks? Bloodbuff would do nothing for him if the cap is at 20.

And speaking of animalism, doesn't the new tier 1 power completely eliminate any advantage to playing a nosferatu?
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:40 am

Pretty much ya, well except rats don't run away from Nossies, but thats not really much of an advantage. I had to do it that way because the 2 bonuses canceled each other out.
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:50 am

That's kind of disappointing.

Why not just stick with flock of ravens for level 1? It's an incredibly useful ability, especially for Nos, who are essentially losing a power with the change. Unless you are planning some other bonus to compensate?

I am also a bit concerned about this frenzy at-will. It seems unbelievably powerful for gangrel. +10 to all physical stats for a mere 50 xp? How much blood does it cost? 5 blood might be balanced, if it only lasts for 30 seconds or so (basically making it a desperation measure). But it also takes the only spellcasting power of gangrels and nosferatu and turns it into a buff power.
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:19 pm

lofgren wrote:
That's kind of disappointing.

Why not just stick with flock of ravens for level 1? It's an incredibly useful ability, especially for Nos, who are essentially losing a power with the change. Unless you are planning some other bonus to compensate?

I am also a bit concerned about this frenzy at-will. It seems unbelievably powerful for gangrel. +10 to all physical stats for a mere 50 xp? How much blood does it cost? 5 blood might be balanced, if it only lasts for 30 seconds or so (basically making it a desperation measure). But it also takes the only spellcasting power of gangrels and nosferatu and turns it into a buff power.

In the case of Gangrel, they will receive the standard +5 bonus not the +10. Because of the limitations of the game I could only choose one bonus for both clans, and +10 is way overpowered.

So in this case Gangrel get a +10 to uncontrolled frenzy, and +5 to controlled frenzy.
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:31 pm

That makes more sense, but it still seems pretty damn powerful
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PostSubject: Re: stamina increase bloodpool   Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:54 pm

lofgren wrote:
That makes more sense, but it still seems pretty damn powerful

Well every clan is powerful in their own right. Gangrel (and Brujah) are the 2 most physically hands on powerful clans however Nosferatu aren't far behind. With Frenzy (Animalism), Potence, and Blood Buff they too can be very dangerous up close and personal. Not to mention Nosferatu can also turn invisible... heh
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