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 The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

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Zer0Morph
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PostSubject: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:48 pm

I wanted to have a publicly viewed REVIEW with my Beta Testers on their thoughts of TFN so far. You've had almost a week straight to play it and besides the bugs we're stomping out, what do you think of the game as a whole?

1.) Is TFN too easy, too hard, or just right?
2.) What do you think of the new disciplines? (Sound, Visuals, Effects, Strategies)
3.) The new Haggle System and how money weighs within the game.
4.) The new weapons and the balance of these weapons.
5.) The vendors selling good weapons earlier, and the Lore Books.
6.) The Inspection System.
7.) Your thoughts on the Blood Dolls and Hookers?
8.) How the new frenzy and Masquerade Violation system works.
9.) The new look of TFN, from the music, sound effects, and in particular the skins (textures).
10.) Any closing comments or random thoughts?

You don't have to follow these questions or even answer of them, I just posted them so you had an idea of what kind of feedback I was looking for. I'm sure the community who has yet to play TFN would like to read your reviews as well.


Last edited by Zer0Morph on Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:54 pm

1) I'd say it is about 10% too hard. However, i'm using an Assamite with 50% discount on skills and fully meelee focused (Already have 5 on meelee skill, 7 on feat, santa monica). To any "mixed" built, i think it would be far too hard. This also makes me think that a fully focused combat character is not an choice to be made, sacrificing some parts of the game, but rather an absolute necessity in order to survive

2) The disciplines are okay, so far. I ain't enjoying them much cuz there's too few xp, and too much important things to buy.
Some quests in santa monica i can't complete because of it

3)So far, i haven't noticed anything big.

4) I feel weapon are unbalanced, especially for the melee fighter. I found out that, even with Melee 5, i CANNOT go through fighting more than 1 opponent without having to resort to hiding and firearms. The thugs have peashooters, which should do little damage to a vampire, but if i take 10 of them i'm on my way to heaven. And since they rapid fire and there's like 5 on them on the harder parts of the game, things get complicated...

5) Haven't bought any books yet, no money, no xp for Haggle

6) No xp for Inspection

7) No xp for Seduction

8)So far so good.

9)The feeling is different, but not that much. No problem with the sound on clubs so far.

10)I have.

There's 10x more things to do now with xp
Disciplines cost more
The requirements of Hacking/Security are higher
Quests depend on Hacking/Security

Result : Less quests made, less xp

Haggle is a main part of the game
No xp for haggle, must spend it on combat skills.

Result: Less money made, less skills/weapons/armor

The enemies are harder
Harder enemies require stronger characters, with more xp and more well equiped

Result: Because of less quests made and no money to spend, characters get weaker and enemies get far too strong.

This is rather cyclical. Try reading it again to fully comprehend.

One more thing.
Because of the needs of combat skills to keep your character alive, these new systems are very unused, at least at the start of the game (about to go downtown)

And finally :
Quietus so far haven't bugged, and has been very useful, and very well made.
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:28 am

Philosopher got it about right. I dunno about combat focus, but guns kick one helluva punch. Guy with a shotgun and a guy with a knife mean trouble.
1. I say about right.
2. Well done. No trouble there.
3. If you want some money and want to afford books, you must spend XP there. According to Philosopher's post, if you don't, you're screwed. I have not met anyone to bribe. It might be me being ugly, but I made it to Chinatown, boss.
4. Guns perhaps too strong. I like defense on the knife and other stuff.
5. It's only logical, captain.
6. Inspection 4 seems enough. Have yet to play a char with higher stat.
7. Mean bitches, keep running away from me Crying or Very sad
8. Hunters are awesome, frenzied once or twice. Humanity and MV work just fine.
9. Music in the Last Round suck. All and all at least one song you picked right Wink
10. Read Philosophers post again Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:01 pm

I decided because I've been playing while I fix bugs, I would also answer my own questions too.

1.) Is TFN too easy, too hard, or just right?
Before I made Tier 1 Abilities only cost 2 XP instead of 3, I would say it was a bit too hard. Now that I've reduced them though, you can actually upgrade an Ability right after the tutorial which is nice. I think the lower cost of Abilities really helps out players in the beginning parts of the game, especially for the prerequisites to complete quests early on. I think it's challenging but fun and worthwhile now.

2.) What do you think of the new disciplines? (Sound, Visuals, Effects, Strategies)
I made them so I'm a little bias of course. I wish I could figure out a way to make an eye appear on the forehead of the Salubri when using Obeah. I thought Thanatosis was a bit overpowered but we took care of that. All in all, I think the disciplines fuckin' rock!

3.) The new Haggle System and how money weighs within the game.
If you're looking for books or want to use bribery to complete quests or gain entrance to places, investing in Haggle is a must, otherwise you will have no money to do these things. If you decide to take a different approach like using Seduction, Intimidation, or Persuasion, that option is also available. Now if you plan on using a lot of guns and a lot of bullets, I'm noticing that a small investment in Haggle would be beneficial to bring down the cost of ammo. If you go the melee or brawl route, you really won't need Haggle at all. I think it's challenging but very fun and rewarding.

4.) The new weapons and the balance of these weapons.
Guns definitely are more powerful, I've noticed this. I like this and don't like this at the same time. The reason I like it is because it's a lot more realistic in terms of killing humans. I always thought it was dumb that an unarmed thug could take 10 rounds to the chest before falling, where as now he takes only a few.

The bad thing is that your vampire can get shredded faster too, at least until you get your Bashing feat up. Those who invest in Fortitude with continue to have little problems with bullet damage. I do like the fact that a vampire who didn't invest in any kind of defense (aka: Stamina, Fortitude, Defense, etc....) can no longer stand in front of a firing squad without getting dusted quickly. It really separates the vamps who invested in defensive abilities and those who invested in offensive abilities. It adds an element of strategy I think.

5.) The vendors selling good weapons earlier, and the Lore Books.
I think this was a must. If you notice, the thugs in the diner no longer sport shotguns so the first time you can even get a shotgun is during the warehouse mission. Fortunately Trip now sells the shotgun or you can find one in the hub if your Inspection is high enough. The Lore Books are an obvious great addition to TFN.

6.) The Inspection System.
I really like how you can’t see or pick up the item until your Inspection is high enough. This denies people the chance to exploit the system by memorizing where these items are. Sure you may know where they are, but you can’t grab them until your Inspection is high enough.

7.) Your thoughts on the Blood Dolls and Hookers?
I really like how you don’t have to walk far to prompt the hooker dialogue, I’m glad I set up those spots for the hubs. I think the Blood Dolls are very challenging for players with a low Seduction score, which is how it should be. But it’s cool because you still DO have a chance to seduce one, even if you do have a low Seduction. Just knowing the chance is there is enough for me to make the attempt every time I enter a club.

8.) How the new frenzy and Masquerade Violation system works.
No more teleporting hunters! Bingo, this works very well.

9.) The new look of TFN, from the music, sound effects, and in particular the skins (textures).
Good so far, and of course I like the music because I picked it out. I wish I could find a time to do more major reskins to the 4 main hubs, in higher resolution textures, just to add some more variety. For the most part, the hubs and other maps look about the same, minus the Sunrise Diner and the new signs in SM.

10.) Any closing comments or random thoughts?
Overall I really like TFN and the direction I’m taking it. I think it was a bit too challenging until I dropped the XP cost of tier 1 Abilities. But now the low cost of getting initial Abilities early on helps the player get his scores up a lot quicker to meet the requirements needed to complete the SM quests. I did run into the problem of not having a high enough Persuasion to sell Copper the blood, only to increase my Persuasion specifically so I could complete that quest, and he no longer would let me. I’ll need to figure out ways to keep quests open longer so players can go back and hit those specific areas for XP.

But overall, yes I really like the challenge of TFN, it’s no longer a cake walk like vanilla or CE, and I feel that meeting the new challenges requires strategy and also gives me greater personal reward when I overcome those challenges.
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:29 pm

Let me point out one question:
Vizier merit/flaw + reduction of 1st tier of abilities.
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:38 pm

Good call brother!

For the Merit XP Ability range will have to work like this. 1, 2, 4, 6, 8
The Flaw XP Ability range will have to work like this. 3, 4, 8, 12, 16

That should balance everything out. Basically I just had to reduce Tier 1 Abilities by 1 XP across the board.

Thanks for pointing that out man!
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:57 pm

Like I said, if you want someone assassinated, I'm your man!
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:34 pm

Well, I could have played only half of the game, but...

1. A bit too hard, especially with regard to earlier quests. You need to know in advance where to invest xp.
2. Obeah is not that useful on lower tiers with my playstyle. I didn't have xp to try higher levels though. Tier 5 looks encouraging.
3. Really important now. If you don't invest in Haggle you are screwed big time. Good addition, but maybe a little to high prices on low Haggle.
4. Well balanced overally, guns maybe a bit too powerful.
5. Yes, yes, yes. Especially with high Haggle. Unobtainable at this level.
6. Maybe too high Inspection required for early quests. Other than that, OK.
7. Didn't have XP for Seduction. Sorry, Boss.
8. Frenzy/ MV system is fine. I kept high to very high Humanity, not really difficult beaing a Salubri, so no problems with Frenzy. Hunters gave me a heat though, even with one MV.
9. Really impressive. I couldn't belive how Santa Monica has changed from CE 1.2 Laughing Downtown was great too.
10. Very good mod, nice graphics, Disciplines, new NPCs. Maybe a little too difficult in the beggining though.


EDIT: hey, when did my Generation drop to 3rd? I don't recall drinking anyone dry... Where is Zer0, by the way? lol!
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:01 pm

So is it consensus that, on the beggining, there's too few xp and the game is slightly harder than what it should be?
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:32 am

1.) Is TFN too easy, too hard, or just right?
For my experience, I find it hard, but not "too" hard.

2.) What do you think of the new disciplines? (Sound, Visuals, Effects, Strategies)
Serpentis (tested before) is fine. Daimonion is quite good, (only tested the first 3 levels yet), but because I can't play with the hotkeys and my mouse is my laptop mouse, I don't use too much the disciplines at their best :/

3.) The new Haggle System and how money weighs within the game.
Wait, Akeem you bastard ! I had to go through hell and back for the book you asked me and you give me only 200 bucks, which is not even enough to buy a "just fucking google it for dummies" ? Crap, is there a Barnes and Nobles opened after nightfall ? I KNOW there is, I mean, I know wallmart opened 24/7 !
I understand the system, I think it's a very good system for "small" sellers as Trip or Fat Larry, or Vandal, or even Mercurio. But Akeem, I don't know. I don't think it's logical for this kind of character to rip-off the PC. I don't think the guy cares about money Very Happy
I think we should re-evaluate prices. The books are too expensive, but the weapons should be more expensive. But the sellers shouldn't all buy weapons (or maybe they could, but for 10 bucks or so) ; After all, if you sold to Tseng the glock you stole from a policeman, the guy may not accept it as it could lead him to very serious problems Very Happy

4.) The new weapons and the balance of these weapons.
I didn't see much of a difference yet, but that's because I swear by the FIREAXE ! And I raised stamina like hell

5.) The vendors selling good weapons earlier, and the Lore Books.
That's a very good thing ! Guns kill, both you and the guys you try to kill. I think, maybe, we should put back the "when you feed, you heal". Or maybe, the blood heal should be revisited (not with a "healing rate", but maybe something in the lines of "one blood point for 1/5 of health bar", with a timing).

6.) The Inspection System.
Still found some objects on some known spots, without the blue shiny thingy (I'm thinking the gold ring you find in the Asylum), but it gives new views and forces me to pay attention (that's a hard one to do, man). Ahh, choices, frustration on XP ! Awesome Smile

7.) Your thoughts on the Blood Dolls and Hookers?
I never could get a hold on the one just in front of the Asylum, but that's just maybe me. The hookers.. I didn't see much change : haggle = less money, seduction = "my price is forthy"

8.) How the new frenzy and Masquerade Violation system works.
That shit is hard ! If there were no loading screens, however, it would be so much better (it's kind of lame to frenzy after stepping out of anywhere). However, it's hard to play with low humanity (spiral to monstruousness, sure, that's normal), but there are not much downrights of a high humanity ; I still can chose to behave as an asshole when I'm high humanity, and when I'm low humanity I still can chose to behave like a nive guy. A high humanity character would not try to sell unicorn blood and the holy stake to the poor thin-blood. "Cuz it's just wrong !".

9.) The new look of TFN, from the music, sound effects, and in particular the skins (textures).
The textures are awesome even if I've had some glitches here and there (sometimes I've got big big squares of blood rather than the drops.. but reload gets rid of this problem.). The music is fine, the sounds are good, both from Serpentis and Daimonion. Akeem's cheeks stille scare me from time to time, and I'm not a huge fan of his eyes, but again, personal taste. I love the skins of the PCs, no matter the clothing, it's not "too much", but it's noticable in a good way Smile

10.) Any closing comments or random thoughts?
I do cheat through the game, to be able to test various things (keeping jeanette and therese, fingering Bertram, save Heather, steal money from Malcolm...).
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:54 pm

ThePhilosopher wrote:
So is it consensus that, on the beggining, there's too few xp and the game is slightly harder than what it should be?

Yeah it sounds like it. I was in agreement of this shortly after the release of Beta which was why I made the Tier 1 Abilities cost 2XP instead of 3XP. It’s amazing just how much that slight adjustment allowed me to kick start my new character so I could get the stats needed to complete the early game quests. Another thing that I did was raise the minimum number of damage that if hit, causes a frenzy check to occur. Too many times was my PC around 5-8 Humanity, full blood, and a guy with a shotgun would plug me and instantly I would frenzy and lose the game. Very frustrating.

Lastly, I made it easier for a lot of the SM quests to complete, for earlier XP. Such as the requirements to convince or intimidate Cooper at the beach, or the requirements needed to use Inspection to see through Knox’s story. These types of things should also help out with the early game difficulty.

Now I want to address some of Claudia’s remarks.

3.) Akeem’s Reward – Now that you mention it, because he is a book dealer maybe he could give the player an option of a free mid-grade book. Even if the player can’t use it, the resell value would be pretty nice.
3.) Books should be cheaper, weapons more expensive – The only problem with this is that the books equal XP, so you’re saying less money for the same amount of XP. The low grade books are pretty cheap and require little to no Research feat to read them. Of course they only affect Tier 1 and 2 Abilities which is 2-3 XP. The mid, and specifically high grade books can save the PC up to 12 XP which should cost a lot. Raising the cost of weapons could be counter-productive because the player will be even more encouraged not to buy the better weapons, and just wait until the NPCs begin carrying them. I would be up for raising the cost of weapons but only if we give cheaper weapons to NPCs (like the mafia guys in LA, or street thugs).
5.) I’m not sure what you mean about adjusting Blood Heal to 1/5 of the health bar. As far as putting back healing while feeding, I don’t see that happening.
8.) Humanity Based Responses – Do you think these should be looked at more closely? Such as, if your Humanity is too high, you can’t do things like Con Cooper out of his money? How would we handle Intimidation? If we limit that then a good based character would get screwed investing in Intimidation, if he can’t use it. How about bad characters? Do we make it impossible to select responses that would net them a gain in Humanity? If so, do we require them to spend the XP to raise it back up?

Sorry I’ve been gone a lot lately, been super busy. Let’s chat about these things…
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:27 am

A matter of feeling: I think it'd be best if "requirements needed to use Inspection to see through Knox’s story" were not changed. The game is about being manipulated by any vampire with a week of seniority above you, I think changing the reqs of Inspection would change the feeling; it is set that a Malkavian in the begining almost automatically sees through Knox, to give you a taste of what they're about - one more reason to keep it as it is.

A matter of disagreement: Cheaper tier 1 abilities would encourage players to spend all dots in one ability during character creation. I'd like to discuss that further in another topic Smile

A matter of agreement: 8.) The sick whore in Skyline apts shows that Humanity based responses are handled; keep it as it is, to allow low Humanity chars to rise, and high Humanity chars to fall.
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:57 am

Alright, now I have half a brain working..

Akeem : Yeah, trading a book for another is a very good idea !


3.) Books should be cheaper, weapons more expensive – The only problem with this is that the books equal XP, so you’re saying less money for the same amount of XP. The low grade books are pretty cheap and require little to no Research feat to read them. Of course they only affect Tier 1 and 2 Abilities which is 2-3 XP. The mid, and specifically high grade books can save the PC up to 12 XP which should cost a lot.


I understand that XP should be expensive, I totally get the idea and I agree, but I just have a logic problem outside the system : Computer for dummies costs about 25 bucks in your local bookstore.


Raising the cost of weapons could be counter-productive because the player will be even more encouraged not to buy the better weapons, and just wait until the NPCs begin carrying them. I would be up for raising the cost of weapons but only if we give cheaper weapons to NPCs (like the mafia guys in LA, or street thugs).
When playing, I usually don't go to sellers unless it's for ammo, clothing, or selling them my pills/rigns/radios/knives. My opinion in the matter is completly biaised and I admit it.. But yeah, not every thug in LA carries around a shotgun, so it's something we could discuss Smile


5.) I’m not sure what you mean about adjusting Blood Heal to 1/5 of the health bar. As far as putting back healing while feeding, I don’t see that happening.
No healing when feeding, ok Wink
It's kind of hard to explain, but now that I think about it it's kind of stepping back to vanilla, so maybe it's wrong.
Remember in vanilla than, when you went to your inventory to catch a blood bag, and when going "back to the game", you see your blood bar filling very, very quickly ? Well kind of the same when you use blood heal ; in the pen and paper game, when you heal, you heal a certain amount of level dammages, and it takes virtually no time (well, as long as you can spend the blood due to generation restrictions). So, with a "long" timer to use blood heal, it could give back instantly a certain amount of health. Either the timer duration or the amount of healt could be changed through spending XP in Blood Heal.

Oh crap, I'll use a WoW analogy. I think Blood Heal shouldn't be a heal over time, but an instant with a long Cooldown.


8.) Humanity Based Responses – Do you think these should be looked at more closely? Such as, if your Humanity is too high, you can’t do things like Con Cooper out of his money? How would we handle Intimidation? If we limit that then a good based character would get screwed investing in Intimidation, if he can’t use it. How about bad characters? Do we make it impossible to select responses that would net them a gain in Humanity? If so, do we require them to spend the XP to raise it back up?
Oh, yes you can strip out Cooper out of his money, but "stealing is wrong" = loss of humanity to, say, humanity 7+. And helping out Mercurio with morphine would be normal for a 8+ humanity character. Telling him he deserves to suffer could mean a loss of humanity. A high humanity character shouldn't think of Heather as a "useful pet", whereas a low humanity character shouldn't be able to say "I did it just to save your life". Caring actions, however, should be able to give or take humanity away (yes, saving heather gives humanity, reassuring dying hannah too, and telling her she killed Paul should take humanity away).
For me, a "good example" of humanity dialogue is the one you have with the guy Heather locks in the bathroom for you.

Crap, humanity's a bitch, it's so subjective ! We could have endless discussions on it. I still have a problem with low humanity characters saying something caring, and high humanity characters saying immoral things, but that might just be me.

Anyway TFN adds a whole new dimension to bloodlines for me and I enjoy testing and playing it, I enjoy saying "oh shit !" when a hunter pops out of nowhere, I like the new skins of the objects, the descriptions.. \o/



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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:30 am

Claudia wrote:
Oh crap, I'll use a WoW analogy. I think Blood Heal shouldn't be a heal over time, but an instant with a long Cooldown.
Bad idea.

Claudia wrote:
Crap, humanity's a bitch, it's so subjective !
It is. It's about what you can get out of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:23 am

The only problem with this is that the books equal XP

Sorry to butt in here, but just a question, considering xp to raise both haggle and research is still required to purchase these books, while not as much as to raise all the abilities, the prices might still need to reflect that. You're still investing XP so you want it to be advantageous, and not simply even cost as you buy a book but can't afford new clothing or something..?
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:26 pm

Claudia wrote:


Crap, humanity's a bitch, it's so subjective ! We could have endless discussions on it. I still have a problem with low humanity characters saying something caring, and high humanity characters saying immoral things, but that might just be me.




Humanity should be always considered with one thing in mind. Good characters could choose evil and fall. Bad ones could try to redeem themselves. Free will still applies to Cainites, doesn't it?
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:41 pm

Sure it does ! But when you rampage kill everyone in sight just for the lulz, you won't think about giving a buck to a homeless out of pure kindness..
(yeah you would give him money for him to shut up, but that's not a gesture you do because you feel compassion and care about the guy)
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:05 pm

Claudia wrote:
So, with a "long" timer to use blood heal, it could give back instantly a certain amount of health. Either the timer duration or the amount of healt could be changed through spending XP in Blood Heal.

Oh crap, I'll use a WoW analogy. I think Blood Heal shouldn't be a heal over time, but an instant with a long Cooldown.

i like the over time healing thing, becouse it realy helps your survivability(almost like another fortitude but healing and not damage blocking) and is it not possible that the PC get ready to heal some damge that will be inflicted on him/her?
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:46 am

I guess that's just me then, but then I just gave my opinion and why I think this way Smile
(again I have a very, very personal vision of the whole thing)
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Tue May 17, 2011 3:45 pm

My thoughts.

1.) Is TFN too easy, too hard, or just right?
Its hard, VERY hard, but I think this is good. It is a genuine challenge now.

2.) What do you think of the new disciplines? (Sound, Visuals, Effects, Strategies)
I love the disciplines, the ideas, the effects, everything is stunning. The only problem I have is that I am running out of experience. I am forced to spend on strength things and toughness things to survive so I can't fully appreciate the new disciplines.

3.) The new Haggle System and how money weighs within the game.
Very well done. you made this an important part of the game now while keeping it, perfectly balanced.

4.) The new weapons and the balance of these weapons.
Possibly the melee weapons could be further tweaked as as it stands now guns are just vastly more useful, melee being a fall back to conserve ammo.

5.) The vendors selling good weapons earlier, and the Lore Books.
Perfect, I wouldn't change a thing here. They are expensive enough to not throw the game out of balance while still adding an edge. Books to buy is a much better system then the college I feel.

6.) The Inspection System.
I love the new system, it works well, don't change a thing.

7.) Your thoughts on the Blood Dolls and Hookers?
Same as disciplines really, I just don't have the xp to spend on seduction. I have read how the system works though and it sounds very good.

8.) How the new frenzy and Masquerade Violation system works.
I love the new system, it works well, don't change a thing.

9.) The new look of TFN, from the music, sound effects, and in particular the skins (textures).
I adore the new look. There are a few more NPCs that I'd like to see spruced up a bit (Voermann sisters, the werewolf etc) but the character skins are fantastic, I can't wait to see the missing genders.

10.) Any closing comments or random thoughts?
I'd like to see the poster quest back, along with some of the other little bonus quests the the CE included.
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Zer0Morph
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Tue May 17, 2011 5:15 pm

This review was so well written I wanted to comment on it.

1.) Is TFN too easy, too hard, or just right?
Its hard, VERY hard, but I think this is good. It is a genuine challenge now.
That’s awesome to hear! That’s exactly the balance I was going for. Very Hard but gratifying (for once).

2.) What do you think of the new disciplines? (Sound, Visuals, Effects, Strategies)
I love the disciplines, the ideas, the effects, everything is stunning. The only problem I have is that I am running out of experience. I am forced to spend on strength things and toughness things to survive so I can't fully appreciate the new disciplines.
Believe it or not this is actually what I was going for. I love RPGs that don’t give you enough XP to be good at EVERYTHING. RPGs are about decisions, and great RPGs have a strong replay value. If the player could experience everything the first time around, there would be no reason to give it a second go. With TFN, forget being good at everything meaning you’re forced to play a second or third time to try everything out.

3.) The new Haggle System and how money weighs within the game.
Very well done. you made this an important part of the game now while keeping it, perfectly balanced.
I thank you sir, and I agree that this turned out amazingly swell.

4.) The new weapons and the balance of these weapons.
Possibly the melee weapons could be further tweaked as as it stands now guns are just vastly more useful, melee being a fall back to conserve ammo.
I also agree with this comment. In TFN 1.1 I have tweaked all of the melee weapons to better balance with the firearms. One thing I do want to mention however is that a huge advantage that melee weapons have over ranged is that you buy them once and they don’t require ammo. Think about the money you spend for ammunition, it’s insane, and with the Haggle system in place, money in a sacred thing now. So basically if you want to specialize in guns, that’s fine, but you better get you’re Haggle feat up so you can afford the ammo. If you specialize in melee then that frees you up to spend XP in other areas besides Haggle because you really don’t need the money as much. This is how I wanted it.

5.) The vendors selling good weapons earlier, and the Lore Books.
Perfect, I wouldn't change a thing here. They are expensive enough to not throw the game out of balance while still adding an edge. Books to buy is a much better system then the college I feel.
Thanks and I would agree. This was my vision for a long time.

6.) The Inspection System.
I love the new system, it works well, don't change a thing.
Sweet!!

7.) Your thoughts on the Blood Dolls and Hookers?
Same as disciplines really, I just don't have the xp to spend on seduction. I have read how the system works though and it sounds very good.
I actually created an Ishtarri who started the game with true 7 in Inspection. I literally dumped every starting point in Inspection and believe it or not he turned out REALLY powerful! The fact that he could get blood from any blood doll with little resistance any time + the benefits of having high Seduction skills made him pretty effective. For those who think Seduction is a waste I can honestly say it’s not. Never fearing getting hungry goes a long way in TFN, especially considering the Ishtarri’s weakness.

So basically if you specialize in Seduction, feeding on Blood Dolls will be cake. If you specialize in Haggle, then Hookers are for you. If you specialize in neither, well… happy hunting! Laughing

8.) How the new frenzy and Masquerade Violation system works.
I love the new system, it works well, don't change a thing.
Awesome!

9.) The new look of TFN, from the music, sound effects, and in particular the skins (textures).
I adore the new look. There are a few more NPCs that I'd like to see spruced up a bit (Voermann sisters, the werewolf etc) but the character skins are fantastic, I can't wait to see the missing genders.
I agree, though I’m not sure I would change much if anything about the Voermann sisters or the werewolf. I would personally like to add more variety to the pedestrians walking around so you don’t see so many duplicates. I’d also like some new higher resolution textures for the buildings in all 4 hubs, just to add some variety.

10.) Any closing comments or random thoughts?
I'd like to see the poster quest back, along with some of the other little bonus quests the the CE included.
I wish I could but I can’t. We are using the items for other things. As far as the CE bonus quests, once again I don’t see it happening, I’m sorry. I would ideally like to create more quests however, just not the CE ones.
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ThePhilosopher
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Tue May 17, 2011 8:28 pm

TFN 1.1 : On tutorial you fight the sheriff. Why? CHALLENGE OF COURSE! OFMG YOU DON'T LIKE A CHALLENGE? I MYSELF ENJOY A CHALLENGE.

Just making fun of Zer0s views Laughing
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jrc_burgess
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Tue May 17, 2011 9:25 pm

I'm flattered you thought my idle musing were useful so I thought I'd expand on what I said and reply to your comments

2.) What do you think of the new disciplines? (Sound, Visuals, Effects, Strategies)
I love the disciplines, the ideas, the effects, everything is stunning. The only problem I have is that I am running out of experience. I am forced to spend on strength things and toughness things to survive so I can't fully appreciate the new disciplines.
Believe it or not this is actually what I was going for. I love RPGs that don’t give you enough XP to be good at EVERYTHING. RPGs are about decisions, and great RPGs have a strong replay value. If the player could experience everything the first time around, there would be no reason to give it a second go. With TFN, forget being good at everything meaning you’re forced to play a second or third time to try everything out.
I understand and applaud your approach here but the impression I get is that where the game has been made that much more harder and challenging (and so, like I said before, better Smile ) in reality I have been forced to spend all my experience on the mundane things that get me through the game; strength, toughness, lockpicking etc, and not had any 'spare' to spend on the more exotic things. What I would recommend is make sure there is enough for both the core build to go on with enough extra for some customising. This extra xp is what should be limited to make sure nobody can get everything.


4.) The new weapons and the balance of these weapons.
Possibly the melee weapons could be further tweaked as as it stands now guns are just vastly more useful, melee being a fall back to conserve ammo.
I also agree with this comment. In TFN 1.1 I have tweaked all of the melee weapons to better balance with the firearms. One thing I do want to mention however is that a huge advantage that melee weapons have over ranged is that you buy them once and they don’t require ammo. Think about the money you spend for ammunition, it’s insane, and with the Haggle system in place, money in a sacred thing now. So basically if you want to specialize in guns, that’s fine, but you better get you’re Haggle feat up so you can afford the ammo. If you specialize in melee then that frees you up to spend XP in other areas besides Haggle because you really don’t need the money as much. This is how I wanted it.
Keep in mind that most ranged builds will have grown from a character who's gone down the inspection/haggle road anyway as inspection 10 will mean that you have at least firearm 5 too. I'm trying to suggest that this makes the cost of ammo not that big a deal for most ranged builds.


9.) The new look of TFN, from the music, sound effects, and in particular the skins (textures).
I adore the new look. There are a few more NPCs that I'd like to see spruced up a bit (Voermann sisters, the werewolf etc) but the character skins are fantastic, I can't wait to see the missing genders.
I agree, though I’m not sure I would change much if anything about the Voermann sisters or the werewolf. I would personally like to add more variety to the pedestrians walking around so you don’t see so many duplicates. I’d also like some new higher resolution textures for the buildings in all 4 hubs, just to add some variety.
Personally I've always found the werewolf in particular a very bland skin. Ugly. I love your idea about the pedestrians but may I suggest another look at the hookers. I laud the initial idea to vary them up some with the different colours but I think the 1-colour look really doesn't work well. All green, all blue, all red (although this of course was pre-existing), they kind of end up looking like slutty power rangers!
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Maxus Corvin
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Tue May 17, 2011 10:27 pm

1.) Is TFN too easy, too hard, or just right?

Most of the game, as far as I've seen, has the same level of difficulty as the normal game. Most of the, I guess mini-boss additions add a interesting challenge, but its nothing that is even annoying. The only boss I really have a problem with(at least between my Setite, where it was not too difficult, and Osebo, where it took some time to get through. Main problem with it, is the fact that with ranged, there isn't anything to consistently point at, and for melee, where the hell is it?

2.) What do you think of the new disciplines? (Sound, Visuals, Effects, Strategies)

Visually, they all look great. Maybe I've only seen Serpentis in full, but what I've seen of Obeah, I love it.

3.) The new Haggle System and how money weighs within the game.

Great Idea. Now if only I could get myself to have some focus on it.

4.) The new weapons and the balance of these weapons.

Some of them do seem to fire a little slow, and it doesn't seem that it's dependent on the ranged skills. For the shotgun it fires pretty much as it does in the normal game, but the Desert Eagle's fire is, well, way to slow.

5.) The vendors selling good weapons earlier, and the Lore Books.

Even if they do sell weapons early, there is the consideration one has to either wait until you can find it on an enemy, or until ones stats are high enough to use it effectively. As to the books, having one or two of them to find in places where it would seem right(Such as the computer book in the Net Cafe), but otherwise, its fine.

6.) The Inspection System.

Sure, it might be a little odd to walk down the street and find something like that, but why complain?

7.) Your thoughts on the Blood Dolls and Hookers?

Since they are basically like the normal game, there isn't much to say.

8.) How the new frenzy and Masquerade Violation system works.

I do think it's a bit odd how how the beast would want to freak out when you have a full health and blood-pool, but hell, it likely doesn't think like that. For the violations, I've mostly avoided getting them, but having hunters appear even for one, heh. Seems no matter what character I have, I don't have a problem dealing with them. Or just leading them around the map.

9.) The new look of TFN, from the music, sound effects, and in particular the skins (textures).

Music: Some of them might not be something I would've chosen myself, but all of the songs are great.

Sounds: Considering the weapons, the sounds for them are great. Any other sounds might not be too out standing(meaning they aren't really different from the original game, or aren't so noticeable).

Skins: Wow. I've mostly looked at the female models, but even the male models are great too.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly   Wed May 18, 2011 6:05 am

Zer0Morph wrote:
I wanted to have a publicly viewed REVIEW with my Beta Testers on their thoughts of TFN so far. You've had almost a week straight to play it and besides the bugs we're stomping out, what do you think of the game as a whole?

Quote :
1.) Is TFN too easy, too hard, or just right?
From what I can tell yet, it's not too hard. You have to be more careful on what to spend your experience, but that is actually a good thing.
Quote :
2.) What do you think of the new disciplines? (Sound, Visuals, Effects, Strategies)
As yet I have only played with Serpentis, and Daimonium. The sounds and visuals are very good, except of course for this bunny hop a character is forced to, when using things like Apeps Semblance or Concordance. But that is not Zer0s fault. There is one thing I'd like to have though: a better description of what effects they do have in game terms. Things like duration, damage range, waiting time until they are available again...
Quote :
3.) The new Haggle System and how money weighs within the game.
While I do appreciate the system in general, I think haggling has become a bit too important, compared with other things.
Quote :
4.) The new weapons and the balance of these weapons.
Can't say too much on this one. Since I don't like carrying a big armory around, I haven't tested most of them. But I think, adding a defens bonus for the small and fast weapons, and a penalty for the larger, clumsier ones is a good idea. Also I appreciate the stealth bonus for the ninjato, even if I didn't use it yet, because I have only played obfuscate characters who don't need it.
I think, the armor also should have more sideeffects, apart from the armor rating, and the dex penalty. Perhaps instead of reduced dex, a penalty on defense, and stealth feats. And maybe some effect on social feats as well. Heavy armor could give a bonus to intimidation, while giving a malus on seduction, and persuasion.
Quote :
5.) The vendors selling good weapons earlier, and the Lore Books.
This is a good idea. Perhaps better armor could also be available earlier. But I think, at least some of the books should be available from more than one vendor. At least Akeem should have all of them, so you don't have to go back to Trip for books you couldn't afford , or didn't want to buy early in the game.
Quote :
6.) The Inspection System.
This is good. You can go for it, but you don't need it.
Quote :
7.) Your thoughts on the Blood Dolls and Hookers?
Usually I don't go for buying my blood, so I cant say anything about the hookers. The blooddolls, well I like the idea of a more randomized approach to seduction, but I don't like the way it is implemented.
Quote :
8.) How the new frenzy and Masquerade Violation system works.
Since I never got more than one violation at a time, I can't say much here. But the knife is my preferred melee weapon, so the chance of getting one for free early in the game fits my tactics very well.
Quote :
9.) The new look of TFN, from the music, sound effects, and in particular the skins (textures).
Well I don't like the music. And I don't pay much attention to backgrounds, and sound effects. If I hadn't read about them, I'd never have noticed all the Zer0 was here sprayings. The skins really are great, but I don't think the new design fits the diner. Compared to the looks of Doris and the cook, and the info you can get about them from Arthur, it is too sparkly.
Quote :
10.) Any closing comments or random thoughts?
Making disciplines harder to obtain, isn't as bad as I thought it might be.
But I don't like that there are still only the lore books from vanilla. I do know that creating additional ones would mean taking out other items. But this limited selection, combined with the lower xp cost for buying new abilities, severely limits the choices at character creation, unless you are prepared to leave out some of the options to save xp later.
The shade is a good idea for an enemy. Having to fight someone you can't see makes for a nice difference.

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