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FallenRaven
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PostSubject: Thaumaturgy   Tue May 10, 2011 5:05 pm

what are the limits of this discipline or if it is easyer to answer what can you do with it?
only info i have is from here
thanks for any answers
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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Wed May 11, 2011 5:01 am

Here from the white wolf wikia


Thaumaturgy is a discipline White Wolf used to take to Vampire all powers from Ars Magica (actually the Tremere come from that game, authors arranged them to become vampires for the lulz). Basicly, Thaumaturgy can do about everything, the only limitation is time and props ; you gotta have a lot of time to experiments on various props, to invent a ritual or a path that allows you to do what you want. It calls for years, decades, centuries of studies and experimentations with a lot of different props to be able to understand the true nature of Magic and use it the way you want it to be used.

Thaumaturgy has both rituals (with a very precise effect ; there is this one ritual to grow your hair, or this one ritual that allows you to communicate mentally with your sire) and paths (which are closer to a basic discipline, the more advanced you are in the path, the more powerful the effects are ; path of blood gives you control over blood, for instance).
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FallenRaven
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Wed May 11, 2011 8:58 am

for an example is it possible to make a path that uses shadows(i know that obtenebration already do that)
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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Wed May 11, 2011 9:20 am

Well it's possible to use an existing path and change the appearance of it to use shadows (rather than, I don't know, fire, water or someone's image). After all, many componants include mirrors or the image of someone else (pictures, drawings, representations, voodoo dolls...). But you need an old and bored Tremere ^^
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Feral
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Wed May 11, 2011 10:09 am

FallenRaven wrote:
for an example is it possible to make a path that uses shadows(i know that obtenebration already do that)

Such a path exists. I read about it in one of the books.

EDIT: Path of Shadowcrafting: http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php?title=Thaumaturgy
Unsuprisingly, the path was in the Clanbook (rev)
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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Wed May 11, 2011 1:06 pm

I'll browse through the books and scan you the corresponding thingy if I find it.

(again, "there is a ritual for that", says Lyle Kersten)
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Wed May 11, 2011 3:03 pm

Claudia wrote:
... (again, "there is a ritual for that", says Lyle Kersten)

So the Tremere's favorite computer is a Mac, not a PC: There is an App for everything... Cool

- geek

_________________
- geek

Tuesday is Soylent Green day.
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Wed May 11, 2011 3:44 pm

You got it half right, Childe ; The Tremere invented apple !
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Wed May 11, 2011 8:21 pm

Would Lyle really limit himself to a Mac? I know they can run stuff made for Windows now, but it's still hard to find programs written specifically for a Mac. I'd think he would have both. I'd bet the Nossies have both. A single tool is not always the best for every job.

No offense to Lyle's human analog if he prefers Mac, but the guys I've known who were most vocal about the "Mac is better!" debate tended to be snobs, who felt everyone with a PC was peasant trash. I don't know; perhaps that describes Lyle. It does tend to describe Tremere in general, regarding their opinion towards everyone who isn't Tremere.
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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Thu May 12, 2011 5:17 am

Lyle uses Apple products for mobile technology because they are handy and easy to use (rather than other PDA or tactical tabets or other smartphones), but he would use a PC (a desktop so he could poke the CPU ^^) for anything non-mobile Wink


(the player prefer PC than MAC, but actually, the player is not a huge fan of technological gadgets and pushing them to their extremes, whereas the character is)

The PC vs MAC debate always makes us laugh at home, though, as well as the Linux vs Windows, Playstation vs Xbox, Atari vs Amiga, etc..
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:47 am

FallenRaven wrote:
what are the limits of this discipline or if it is easyer to answer what can you do with it?
only info i have is from here
thanks for any answers

Thaumaturgy is NOT a discipline, but some kind of magic - blood magic. Magical powers of the Tremere comes from the cursed and tainted blood of Caine, but Thaumaturgy needs serious knowledge, willpower and practice for casting. I think it is an important difference.
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:19 am

It's a discipline, except that instead of appealing to one's Talents, it appeals to one's Knowledges. Remember, the Tremere were mages to begin with. For them, magic was quite natural, since they were mages and not mortals Wink
And that passed by with the Embrace, as do other disciplines ; it's a question of "race and lineage" (bleh). Sure Mages who become Kindred have an easier time using Thaumaturgy, but that's just because they understand better the theorical concepts. Being of Tremere's blood helps a shitload, this is why non-Tremere practicionners of Thaumaturgy have more trouble (that and they don't have a Nod nor proper place o practice)
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PGM1961
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:47 pm

For a non-Tremere, I'd think the biggest handicap would be the lack of the Tremere knowledge base. A non-Tremere (even one who was a hedge wizard* before their Embrace) who manages to learn Thaumaturgy has to learn everything from the ground up; i.e. 're-invent the wheel' so to speak. Tremere have a huge advantage, because they have access to (most of) the knowledge discovered by their clanmates over the past centuries. That is probably why most Tremere don't really see individual non-Tremere Thaumaturges as much of a threat -- they can never hope to keep pace with the Tremere, much less pose any danger.

Of course, there are hard-line Tremere who feel that ANY non-Tremere who learns Thaumaturgy should be destroyed. Gotta watch out for those. Smile

gschenker wrote:
Thaumaturgy is NOT a discipline, but some kind of magic - blood magic. Magical powers of the Tremere comes from the cursed and tainted blood of Caine, but Thaumaturgy needs serious knowledge, willpower and practice for casting. I think it is an important difference.

Ah, the old 'Is Thaumaturgy a real discipline or not?" debate. In the general sense, Thaumaturgy is a discipline for two reasons:
1) White Wolf put Thaumaturgy in the 'Discipline' section, so it must be a Discipline. Smile
2) The various Paths (Path of Blood, Lure of Flames) are definitely disciplines, because they require vitae expenditure, and draw power directly from the blood.

Rituals are a little trickier. You have to know at least one of the Paths to use rituals, and many also require vitae in their use (not necessarily the Tremere's). But most if not all of their power is derived from knowledge of the various magical laws involved. Preparation may take days; but the properly prepared Thaumaturge can have access to dozens of rituals that can be invoked at a moment's notice. That's why they are so dangerous.

[Even the Tremere who hasn't had days to prepare usually has a few tricks up his sleeve, which he keeps ready at all times. If not, then how can he call him/herself Tremere?] LOL

While it is debatable whether Thaumaturgic rituals can be called 'disciplines', the base Path(s) they are derived from are certainly Disciplines.

* [Ed.[/i] [NOTE: 'Hedge Wizard' refers to those who were magic practitioners before their Embrace, but who were not true Mages; i.e. they had no connection to their Avatar, and were usually not vulnerable to Paradox. True Mages who are Embraced tend to commit suicide due to the connection to their Avatar being severed. Tremere, Etrius, et al. must have had high willpower to keep going after that.]


Last edited by PGM1961 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:51 pm

Then there's the same thing for Necromancy and Mortis and a shitload of other shits published by WW, but that's a system debate, and not a "in game, how does it happen ?" discussion :p
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gschenker
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:11 pm

Claudia wrote:
It's a discipline, except that instead of appealing to one's Talents, it appeals to one's Knowledges. Remember, the Tremere were mages to begin with. For them, magic was quite natural, since they were mages and not mortals Wink

Yes, in Middle Ages, Tremere before Saulot's diablerie were mortal mages of Order of Hermes. But vampyric disciplines different from any form of magic. Magic is binding to formulas, special accessories, magical spells and a bunch of other thing and much more effective than disciplines. For learning of an ordinary discipline, it is enough only the vampyric blood, and, of course, some practice. Thaumaturgy is a science what you have to seriously study before you cast it and you do need other important accessories for casting. In Order of Hermes, mages of Tremere used regularly hermetic formulas in their magic.
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:24 pm

Dude, I worked for White Wolf as a ST for a few years... basic core knowledge, I know Very Happy
Thaumaturgy is a science, but it's part of the Magic of the Order of Hermes (Ars Magica origins, nothing to do with WW obviously <_<)
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gschenker
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:10 am

Claudia wrote:
Dude, I worked for White Wolf as a ST for a few years... basic core knowledge, I know Very Happy
Thaumaturgy is a science, but it's part of the Magic of the Order of Hermes (Ars Magica origins, nothing to do with WW obviously <_<)

Of course, I didn't want to debate your abilities. Smile I just want to point out that Thaumaturgy is different from Traditional vampyric disciplines. And I said the same about origin of Thaumaturgy. Peace, Regent. Smile
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Maxus Corvin
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:58 am

Hmm...Perhaps I should've brought this to the table before, but I don't think this is too far off base.

Something I did for Pretty Requiem was allowing the main character to have a Thamaturgy Path, mostly relating to Ice. If there already is one in the canon, at least an exclusive one, then, whoops.

As for what it entails, I guess it is not like the others, since it takes more from Disciplines like Dominate and Protean(at least in it's effects being similar.

Tier 1Playing With Ice – The user can form short throwing weapons, such as knives, and other pointed or small, bladed weapons. Any bladed weapons will cause aggravated damage on Kindred, or any other supernatural creature.
Tier 2Claws Of Ice – The user's fingers freeze, extending into sharp claws made from ice. They will break after a certain amount of time, if the user has no blood left to spend. Used in conjunction with Tier 1, the claws can be thrown. Causes aggravated damage.
Tier 3 - Icy Mist - The user can create, or become an icy mist, which may be used for evasion in a fog/snow storm, or to attack enemies, both searing their flesh with freezing cold, and pelting it with hail, causing blunt damage.
Tier 4 Ice Shield – The user's body becomes covered in ice, that both serves to defend against damage, of all types(Blunt, Blade, and Aggro). Also prevents staking. The shield will drop after a certain amount of time, or if the user has no blood left to spend.
Tier 5Cold To the Touch/Cold Stare – The user can freeze anything they can touch, including other supernaturals for a limited time. Skilled users can even freeze whatever they can keep their eyes on. Whatever becomes frozen within that duration does not quickly thaw, unless the person affected is quite strong.
Tier 6Blizzard – The area around the user becomes a complete whiteout. Any but the user requires Auspex or any other vision related discipline to see through.
Tier 7Illusion – The user forces the target to see nothing but an ice covered version of the surrounding area. The target can still see the user, but the user can disappear from sight, to the point the target may feverishly search for the user, to no avail. Higher levels of Auspex or any other vision augmenting discipline can allow one to see through this, but it is still difficult.
Tier 8 Frost The Mind – The user can blank the target's mind for a time.
Tier 9 - Angelus De Nivis – The user can assume the form of an frozen creature, somewhat similar to the War Form of other disciplines. It's appearance is somewhat Angelic, although in some ways it looks rather demonic as well.
Tier 10 – Plot Device

Perhaps it works as just a regular discipline, but it would've been learned though Jackal, a Malkavian whose Sire had some involvement with the Order.
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:22 am

Thaumaturgy paths only go up to 5. Increasing Thaumaturgy beyond 5 will instead give you free points in additonal paths and allow you to use more powerful rituals.

Additonally ice causing aggravated damage seems a little weird to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:16 am

It's not a traditional innate and natural discipline, because, as I said, it appeals to kowledge and not talents/skills (in the abilities).


Paths do not go higher than 5, indeed, while Rituals might. Most of the time, Thaumaturgy (core) is used as "how well the thaumaturge understands and practices the magic", as a knowledge discipline, rather than something it "does" as a game system effect.
But yeah having thaumaturgy at 6 or 7 allows the character to have more points in their different paths and having more rituals. In game, however, "mastering a discipline" is very vague, it doesn't have levels or titles Smile I mean "I'ml going to use charisma 2 to..." do you actually rate your charisma behind your computer ? "yeah sure my intelligence is a 4" (okay intelligence doesn't work since we have IQ, but...) you say "i'm quite fast" and "I'm not". So kindred would be "yeah i can dig deeper into the brain than this one other to impose my will on the mortal" when speaking about dominate
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:50 am

Dragatus wrote:
Thaumaturgy paths only go up to 5. Increasing Thaumaturgy beyond 5 will instead give you free points in additonal paths and allow you to use more powerful rituals.


Also few spells are stronger with higher path.

Quote :
But yeah having thaumaturgy at 6 or 7 allows the character to have more points in their different paths and having more rituals. In game, however, "mastering a discipline" is very vague, it doesn't have levels or titles

Those who actually can do level 6+ Rituals usually have already a title.

Quote :
It's a discipline, except that instead of appealing to one's Talents, it appeals to one's Knowledges.

Are they actually called disciplines? I mean in books etc.. I've read view storys but don't rember quite well.
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:56 am

Rituals have names because, as Thaumaturgical Paths and powers, they are KNOWLEDGES, (god can't people read ?) and because it's a KNOWLEDGE, it's named.

Other disciplines names' for theirs powers have names for US PLAYERS, but most characters do not have such a comprehension. The mask of thousand faces (obfuscate 3) could be named by a nosferatu the "cute face trick"
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:15 am

Maxus Corvin wrote:
Tier 2Claws Of Ice – The user's fingers freeze, extending into sharp claws made from ice. They will break after a certain amount of time, if the user has no blood left to spend. Used in conjunction with Tier 1, the claws can be thrown. Causes aggravated damage.

Ice claws causes aggravated wounds? How can it be? And why? Suspect
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PGM1961
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:24 am

Claudia wrote:
Rituals have names because, as Thaumaturgical Paths and powers, they are KNOWLEDGES, (god can't people read ?) and because it's a KNOWLEDGE, it's named.

Other disciplines names' for theirs powers have names for US PLAYERS, but most characters do not have such a comprehension. The mask of thousand faces (obfuscate 3) could be named by a nosferatu the "cute face trick"

I always thought that the various names of the Disciplines might be used by Kindred scholars (Dr. Douglas Netchurch, Beckett, etc.), but most Kindred either don't know them or don't use the technical name because it sounds too pretentious. One game I was in, the Gangrel called lvl. 1 Protean 'Red Eyes', instead of 'Eyes of the Beast'. And it can be clan-specific too; a non-Tremere would be unlikely to know 'Cauldron of Blood' is a lvl. 5 power of the Path of Blood.

Of course, names like 'Theft of Vitae' are pretty obvious. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Thaumaturgy   Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:27 am

Order (dominate 1° happens too Wink

Many non-Tremere don't know "thaumaturgy" either Very Happy They go all like "fucking bloody tremere magic of hell" Very Happy
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