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Claudia
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PostSubject: Corpse ?   Wed May 11, 2011 1:52 pm

So, so, so, questions !
Sex ?
Healing ?
Sleeping ?
Dreaming ?


There are SO many questions asked to me about a Vampire's body.

First, apart from the Brain and the Heart, all other intern organs are useless.
This is why Kindred cannot eat or drink anything else than blood ; it takes a serious willpower to try and swallow something else. And a serious amount of self control to keep it inside, look cool about it, before "going to the bathroom" and vomiting it all up as ashes and dust. (but there is a special merit that allows a kindred to taste it and enjoy eating, but they still have to get rid of it soon, and they still can't be nourished this way)
Because of this, no clear tears, no sweat, no saliva, no urine.. A Kindred can cry, however, but she cries blood. However, it is possible to fake these human traits, by spending blood ; the skin can become warmer, more pinkish, a fake breath can be created, and sexual activity can be engaged (however the only "animalistic" pleasure most kindred can get is from feeding.. blood's your new fuckin heroin kid ! Jack's right ^^)


Everything that allows a Vampire to move around is her blood. Each day, she spends one blood point to wake ; it represents the "use" the body has to have a regular, normal activity for the night (walking, training, being conscious..).

A corpse doesn't heal by itself. Blood does.
The Kindred closes its wounds by spending blood (although a light, paper cut can be "free" to heal) ; due to the surnatural part of a Vampire body, bacteria, viruses, and other illness do not affect her (this is why their flesh do not become rotten). Apart from surnatural measures (the Tzimisce discipline mainly, but also some Thaumaturgical rituals), a Kindred's body tend to stay in the state it was during the time of her embrace ; A tattoo done a Vampire tend to disappear within a few hours, as the body rejects it (but a tattoo done on a human who is then embraced will stay). Kindred don't gain weight, embraced kids don't grow up... However if you cut a Kindred's hair, it will not grow back to it's Embrace state. But cutting something else, yes, it will grow back (and it will cost you a shitloadofblood to recreate your missing arm).
There are some cases of Kindred's body failing to destroy an illness as he comes in contact with it, and becomes a passive carrier. So yes, a vampire can have the aids and give it through feeding, although chances to get it are very low, and chances to give it are mild (-> plaguebearer ^^)



Pregnant women :
Aw shit, I hate this one. Seriously, it's ALWAYS asked. IF you embrace a pregnant woman, she dies, so the foetus dies -> miscarriage. It's possible though the foetus stays in and acts like the parasite he is and pumps on the mother's blood (two points each day rather than just one). But then, it won't grow nor will be born. (There is this possibility of thin-blood's being able to have sex and get pregnant/get someone pregnant, but that's just like the mage vampire garou described in Factor Chaos ; some of white wolf books should be burned to ashes)


Sleep, Sun, Humanity; (Wait, wasn't that Sea Sex and Sun ?)
Ah, I like this one. What the hell does a Kindred look like when she sleeps ? Well, she looks the same as when she doesn't. A corpse !
To be more precise, a Vampire doesn't sleep : she dies during the day. The body doesn't move, doesn't breathe, doesn't rest it's a corpse ! It's mystical, the sun rising calls in a vampire to coma. Except with the Flaw nightmares, a vampire doesn't dream. It's a forced sleep.
Actually, when exactly does a kindred fall into coma ? Astronomical sunrise, true sunrise, dawn ? It depends on the humanity of the character, actually. The higher the humanity, the later she will fall asleep, the earlier she will awake.
Some special circumstances can have a Vampire awake during the day ; either because she fights in the coma (costs a shitload of willpower, blood, and all actions have penalties for the day and the night that follows) or an attack as survival instincts and the Beast will fight against a day attacker, although the penalties to all actions still remain. Again, there's a ritual for that (as well as Light Sleeper merit).

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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sat May 21, 2011 5:31 am

Fingerprints !

Because kindred do not have fluids... they do not leave fingerprints "naturally". Isn't that awesome ? Of course if you catch a hand, put ink on it and press it on a paper, you'll get the prints.. But with just touching a glass or holding it, there will be no prints left. Except if the vampire has spent blood to appear more human (warm skin, fake breathing, even some sweat.. that may cause fingerprints).

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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sat May 21, 2011 5:57 am

So if a character has the merit to consume and enjoy food/drink, could he or she also spend blood to make the organs work in disposing of it?

Also, would the merit be needed if a drink was mixed with blood?(i.e Wine, alcohol, etc.)
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sat May 21, 2011 6:20 am

No, the character cannot make his digestive system to work. He can fake taking a dump or piss, but it won't work "for real".
If the character has the merit to being able to eat and drink, and enjoy it, he still has to dispose of it during the night (which means vomiting ashes). If blood is mixed with the food, then the blood will enter the system, but the rest still has to be expelled.

Here is the exact description of the merit :
Eat Food (1-pt. Merit)
You have the capacity to eat food and even savor its taste.
While you cannot derive any nourishment from eating regular
foods, this ability will serve you well in maintaining the Masquerade.
Of course, you can’t digest what you eat, and there will
be some point during the evening when you must force yourself
to heave it back up.


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PGM1961
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sat May 21, 2011 11:32 am

There are a few points I... well, disagree with is really too strong a word; perhaps I just want to clarify...

Sweat -- even after spending blood to appear human, a vampire still only has blood for sweat; the same for tears. A vampire who is very scared might break out in a blood sweat, or cry blood tears; but it's not clear, it's obviously blood. So I don't think feigning Humanity would leave sweaty fingerprints, or you'd leave red smears on everything you touch, which defeats the purpose. (You're right about no fingerprints normally, though... that's in the Vampire Storytellers Handbook.)

From that same book, they talk about other fluids in the vampiric body. Their first advice is to 'suspend disbelief' -- i.e. just accept it, and don't get too technical about the details. But they mention that vampires do have something similar to saliva, because it plays a part in their ability to lick wounds closed... and also because their mouths would be a bloody mess otherwise. Vitreous humor (eyeball jelly) is also clear, so you can see. But a female vamp who spends a blood point to fake sex finds that the 'lubrication' is actually a thin blood. (Ewww...)

As for hair... there are instances in a few of the Vampire novels of a Kindred's hair returning to its original state during the day's sleep. One character was Embraced with a few days' worth of beard growth, so he had to shave every night when he awoke. There is nothing that says how fast hair returns to its original length, though. So shaving one's head may take several days or weeks to 'regrow'... unless maybe you spend blood to 'heal' it. However, the only way to get hair longer than it was when you were Embraced is the Tremere ritual, Rebirth of Mortal Vanity, which grows hair.

Nothing is really said about dyeing one's hair, but I tend to think that would be similar to a tattoo; it would probably fade while you are asleep during the day. So my bet is that Damsel's signature red hair color was done before her Embrace. Smile

Naturally, all of this is subject to Storyteller ruling... so if hair does not regrow in Claudia's game, that's the way it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sat May 21, 2011 12:17 pm

There is a huge problem with clear fluids ; some say that, by spending the blood, one can create fake tears/urine/sweat, since the blood is consumed by the Kindred, leaving only something in between puss or white cells, or even proteins (well there's a bunch of stuff in the blood...).
Again, we're talking about super natural elements, so they do not respond to nature or natural laws (it's like finding a ghost with a Geiger meter, it's just not possible). That's the idea of "go with it, don't ask, don't tell" Smile
In France, that rule is called TGCM : Ta Gueule C'est Magique (shut up it's magic !), or the variant TGCMM : Ta Gueule C'est Mon Monde (shut up it's my world).


As for the hair, without going for the rituals (cuz there is a ritual for everything), I consider the hair to be "dead". If you cut it, it doesn't grow back to it's original state ; that's why the Rebirth of Mortal Vanity ritual exists, as the ritual system states "This hair will remain until cut", which means that if hair is cut, it doesn't grow back...

The growth process dies with the spermatozoids, the ovules and etc. I do consider that hair dye doesn't stay on the hair more than "paint" (or sprays), so as much as a sticker, it will go off with a few showers. Unlike a tattoo, it will not be fought actively by the body (because the tattoo is under the skin) so consider the hair dye as a piece of clothing or -better- a hennah tattoo.
Then again, I have a few character concepts in the Clanbooks that state "he dies his hair when he travels", and we are not talking Tremere ritual here (shit there's even a ritual called Prom Night.. don't ask).
I would guess Damsel doesn't care much about her looks, so yes, her hair dye is probably pre-Embrace ("Hey Strauss cape, gotta ask you a favor, could you dye my hair with magic man ?"... doesn't do, does it ?)
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sat May 21, 2011 12:50 pm

PGM1961 wrote:
But a female vamp who spends a blood point to fake sex finds that the 'lubrication' is actually a thin blood. (Ewww...)

It's not so bad. Smile At least not with the living.

[edit]

My brother, who is admittedly a little over the top sometimes, had a saying:

"A man is not a man until he has earned his wings."

I'll leave that to everyone's imagination.
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sat May 21, 2011 12:55 pm

Tuishimi wrote:
PGM1961 wrote:
But a female vamp who spends a blood point to fake sex finds that the 'lubrication' is actually a thin blood. (Ewww...)

It's not so bad. Smile At least not with the living.

As a straight girl with normal, modern and steady sexuality, I have to agree with Tuishimi Smile



(but then, I'm used to non circumcised guys, and for what I've experienced with Americans, you guys need to loosen up and get dirty XD)
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sat May 21, 2011 12:56 pm

I always try to figure out the how's and why's in my head... I know you are supposed to just believe but, I imagine some sort of supernatural demon-crafted virus or something that exists in every dead cell and manages the body in death. How is the blood disseminated through the vampiric body?

Also, the eating food, throwing up ash... why is it ash when it is thrown up?
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sat May 21, 2011 1:17 pm

Now those are questions that most GM go with "that goes with the Nature of Vampires". There's no logical explanation on why vampiric blood has healing proprieties, why and how.. After all, the digestive system of the vampire doesn't work (atrophied organs, right), so.. HOW ? Well..
TGCM !
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sat May 21, 2011 1:21 pm

Claudia wrote:
Now those are questions that most GM go with "that goes with the Nature of Vampires". There's no logical explanation on why vampiric blood has healing proprieties, why and how.. After all, the digestive system of the vampire doesn't work (atrophied organs, right), so.. HOW ? Well..
TGCM !

Smile Yeah... it is just in my nature... I have to ponder them even if there is no explanation. I even came up with an idea that the lymph system somehow retained the ability to move fluids through the body, without a heart beat, right? So no heart beat, just the lymph system carrying some vampiric viral-modified slurry moves the blood around the vampire body.

[edit]

And as mentioned, there has to be some fluids other than blood, or at least super thin blood for the mouth and throat. A vampire couldn't speak if the vocal chords were dry and stiff.
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sat May 21, 2011 1:42 pm

The blood flow in the body is caused only by the will of the vampire Wink

About speaking, well, you also need to breathe, to talk, but kindred don't breathe, right ? Their lungs don't work anymore... atrophied intern organs Wink
Saliva thingy, yes, because of its healing purposes as when feeding...

I guess it's up to each Narrator, too.
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sat May 21, 2011 4:42 pm

Looking for rational science to explain supernatural phenomena is pointless. Some books and movies try to do this, like the Underworld movies; but they stretch science too far... what is the chance that a random virus could rewrite your DNA to be a superhuman creature, without any real side-effects except severe sensitivity to light? What are the chances that another random virus could do the same, except with a severe allergy to silver? Now what are the chances that these two viruses would happen to infect the sons of a single human mutant? (And if we're not talking viruses, but the reaction of a normal animal bite on two mutant brothers... that's even more silly.) The first Underworld movie is a fun ride, but I don't look too closely at the 'science' behind it.

WOD vampires are the undead. There is no scientific explanation, nor should there be. Example: Stamina. Normal humans can increase their stamina through aerobic exercise, making their bodies more efficient at burning glucose and oxygen to power their muscles, and carrying off waste products from this chemical reaction. But a vampire can't do this... they don't breathe oxygen or metabolize glucose any more, and their bodies are locked into the same condition that they died in, so they couldn't improve their metabolism anyway. Fatigue is an illusion; a psychological holdover from being alive -- no more 'oxygen debt' to make their muscles sore, and cause them to slow down. When a vampires increases his stamina, he is teaching himself that mortal limitations do not apply anymore... the phantom fatigue is in his head, and he can keep going indefinitely if he has to. Strength is the same way -- a vampire's body cannot gain muscle mass through exercise. But they can learn to focus their will and ignore their previous limitations (increase their STR trait), take it a step further and go beyond mortal limits (Potence Discipline), or even spend their own magical blood to pump up their strength for a limited time.

I think spending too much time worrying about the 'rational' explanations detracts from a person's enjoyment of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sun May 22, 2011 2:06 am

Smile You take me too seriously. I muse. And I really don't spend a lot of time thinking about it.


PGM1961 wrote:
Looking for rational science to explain supernatural phenomena is pointless. Some books and movies try to do this, like the Underworld movies; but they stretch science too far... what is the chance that a random virus could rewrite your DNA to be a superhuman creature, without any real side-effects except severe sensitivity to light? What are the chances that another random virus could do the same, except with a severe allergy to silver? Now what are the chances that these two viruses would happen to infect the sons of a single human mutant? (And if we're not talking viruses, but the reaction of a normal animal bite on two mutant brothers... that's even more silly.) The first Underworld movie is a fun ride, but I don't look too closely at the 'science' behind it.

WOD vampires are the undead. There is no scientific explanation, nor should there be. Example: Stamina. Normal humans can increase their stamina through aerobic exercise, making their bodies more efficient at burning glucose and oxygen to power their muscles, and carrying off waste products from this chemical reaction. But a vampire can't do this... they don't breathe oxygen or metabolize glucose any more, and their bodies are locked into the same condition that they died in, so they couldn't improve their metabolism anyway. Fatigue is an illusion; a psychological holdover from being alive -- no more 'oxygen debt' to make their muscles sore, and cause them to slow down. When a vampires increases his stamina, he is teaching himself that mortal limitations do not apply anymore... the phantom fatigue is in his head, and he can keep going indefinitely if he has to. Strength is the same way -- a vampire's body cannot gain muscle mass through exercise. But they can learn to focus their will and ignore their previous limitations (increase their STR trait), take it a step further and go beyond mortal limits (Potence Discipline), or even spend their own magical blood to pump up their strength for a limited time.

I think spending too much time worrying about the 'rational' explanations detracts from a person's enjoyment of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sun May 22, 2011 6:19 am

Of course trying to explain supernatural things with science is pointless ! It takes a Malkavian to try ;-) (it does actually)

By the way I found a WOD canon saying the hair does grow back to how it was during the embrace, each day during the sleep. Well it's wod canon from time of judgement, so authorship changed, goals changed, and they were rushing it to publish Requiem. I won't apply this one :-)

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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sun May 22, 2011 9:50 am

I was wondering about the hair thing- You'd totally be able to tell if a vampire had ever been burned if what was left of their hair was short and brittle since it could never grow back.

There'd be soooo many bald/wigged vampires. xDD
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sun May 22, 2011 10:24 am

This discussion reminds me a little of the Star Trek universe... what's canon, what's derived, etc. Except the STU has way more problems/inconsistencies to explain. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sun May 22, 2011 10:30 am

There's a little of that Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sun May 22, 2011 11:20 am

Tuishimi wrote:
This discussion reminds me a little of the Star Trek universe... what's canon, what's derived, etc. Except the STU has way more problems/inconsistencies to explain. Laughing

That's because Star Trek has to invent more pseudo-science to explain the inconsistencies, where VtM simply says, "This is simply what this [clan, sect, etc.] believes to be true... it may not be so." Or, as Claudia said, "Shut up it's magic!" lol

I wasn't referring specifically to you in my previous rant. You merely got me thinking about how some people try too hard to make supernatural phenomena fit their rational view of the world. I've gamed with people who will interrupt a game in progress to argue "That's not possible!" If I'm running the game, I simply tell them to roll versus illusion... when what they're really rolling for is to see if their refusal to accept the reality in front of their eyes will cause some kind of mental breakdown. hehe...

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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sun May 22, 2011 11:28 am

PGM1961 wrote:
Tuishimi wrote:
This discussion reminds me a little of the Star Trek universe... what's canon, what's derived, etc. Except the STU has way more problems/inconsistencies to explain. Laughing

That's because Star Trek has to invent more pseudo-science to explain the inconsistencies, where VtM simply says, "This is simply what this [clan, sect, etc.] believes to be true... it may not be so." Or, as Claudia said, "Shut up it's magic!" lol

I wasn't referring specifically to you in my previous rant. You merely got me thinking about how some people try too hard to make supernatural phenomena fit their rational view of the world. I've gamed with people who will interrupt a game in progress to argue "That's not possible!" If I'm running the game, I simply tell them to roll versus illusion... when what they're really rolling for is to see if their refusal to accept the reality in front of their eyes will cause some kind of mental breakdown. hehe...


Ahh. Smile For what it is worth, I agree with you, btw. I'm religious and people often ask me why, what proof do you have that God exists? While with apologetics I think I can make a great case, physical, in-your-face proof that people would accept as such is hard to come by.
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sun May 22, 2011 5:50 pm

Claudia wrote:
(shit there's even a ritual called Prom Night.. don't ask)
out of curiosity i have to ask what it do
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sun May 22, 2011 9:44 pm

Prom Night is a ritual to allow a Thaumaturge to create permanent hair style, nail length and polish, make up, and change one's eye color...
There is also one ritual about growing breasts ;-)

Seriously!

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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sun May 22, 2011 9:50 pm

That could come in handy while distracting kine.

"BEHOLD /sprouts breasts."

And then you help your group make a get-away while everyone's minds go offline.
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sun May 22, 2011 9:56 pm

It's a ritual, not spontaneous magic ;-) but I had a lul !!

In many countries, having larger breasts do not mean the character is more attractive...
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PostSubject: Re: Corpse ?   Sun May 22, 2011 10:02 pm

Lulz are important.

Attractive, maybe not, but used well, it could be measures of causing impromptu astonishment if its implementation is completely out of place. xDD
Or so that's the only use I foresee for such a ritual. D:
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