Clan Change - Warriors of Set

Okay, the Warriors of Set are ready to go, 100%, I just need to test it in the tutorial and what not. I have another problem though. The Assamite Warriors clan weakness is different than the Viziers. Warriors have an insatiable lust for vampire vitae, so how would we implement this?

Options
1.) We make the Warrior character drink elder vitae bags on a regular basis or suffer x,y,z.
2.) We keep Viziers in the game and we don't have to change anything.
3.) We keep Viziers in the game and we don't have to change anything.

And the last option, and probably the best option...
4.) We keep Viziers in the game and we don't have to change anything. LOL

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Depending on the diablerie system and how many victims there are present maybe, if it's possible to implement, you could occasionally be forced to commit diablerie depending on RNG which reduces humanity permanently by a dot for each time you do it?

Is there a way to run a frenzy check on a timer set from last vitae bag used?

Or set them up so that they cannot raise str/dex/sta above 3(with initial penalties), but using and elder bag grants +3 for a few minutes?

if they feed off of a human/rat they puke back up 3 units (or just receive far less), but feeding from ghouls/vampires grants extra blood?

just ideas. something more may come later.
Also, force PC dialog lines about "you look tasty" "Back off fledgling!"

malak wrote:

Is there a way to run a frenzy check on a timer set from last vitae bag used?

Or set them up so that they cannot raise str/dex/sta above 3(with initial penalties), but using and elder bag grants +3 for a few minutes?

if they feed off of a human/rat they puke back up 3 units (or just receive far less), but feeding from ghouls/vampires grants extra blood?

just ideas. something more may come later.
Also, force PC dialog lines about "you look tasty" "Back off fledgling!"

YES YES AND YES! Malak, yes, I'm enjoying these ideas, keep em coming!

Actually Assamites had another clan weakness. They were cursed by the Tremere that Kindred Blood actually would damage them. This curse was broken by Ur-Shulgi during the Final Nights. Ur-Shulgi totally changed the clan with his appearance. The question is if you want to play before or after the final nights. In theory both is possible (I know the name ... TFN). The curse was that they actually would take damage when they did drink blood blood/diablerize another (camarilla) kindred. So either go that route or

totally ignore lore

or

It could also have social Problems. I know that there are different reaction with the NPCs depending on your clan (checking through the npc sheets while searching for sneak answers). What they do, I do not know though.

Diablerie is feared (even more than pure destruction). Diablerie is used as a way to subdue or to gain boons. LaCroix certainly wouldn't allow the "fledgling" which he let live due to political reasons survive a diablerie. Yes, Diablerie can be detected via Auspex, but it is rather difficult (3 Succ/Diff 8 ) iirc. The scourge (not the Sheriff) usually kills vampires. He is therefore feared. For example he has the right to kill anyone who breaks tradition of hospitality (beeing in the city unannounced, etc). Usually the 6th Tradition: Destruction forbids the destruction of other kindred unless allowed by elders (aka the Prince - or ruling equivalent). While this is handeled somewhat differently in Bloodlines, we still should try to be lore correct as possible. Unless you want to have SubZero in your game that is

Adding diablerie out of context is hard. It should result in a major plot and might be the story of a game on its own. Please don't add something like diablerie easily. This is the reason why the Sabbat and (the former) Assamites are so feared. They (Assamites) even where cursed by the Tremere so they couldn't diablerize any more. Also, keep in mind, that one of the reasons the Camarilla was formed was to protect themselves from diablerizing anarchs. They needed the numbers. A law system that has the jurisdication, power and integrity to do so. While the elders each want and pursue their own power of course they needed a safe zone to work from as it kinda hinders when someone always tries to suck you dead.

Zer0Morph wrote:

Okay, the Warriors of Set are ready to go, 100%, I just need to test it in the tutorial and what not. I have another problem though. The Assamite Warriors clan weakness is different than the Viziers. Warriors have an insatiable lust for vampire vitae, so how would we implement this?

Options
1.) We make the Warrior character drink elder vitae bags on a regular basis or suffer x,y,z.
2.) We keep Viziers in the game and we don't have to change anything.
3.) We keep Viziers in the game and we don't have to change anything.

And the last option, and probably the best option...
4.) We keep Viziers in the game and we don't have to change anything. LOL

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

No more Followers of Set or they can still be played? (I really liked the clan)
About Assamite, I think keeping Viziers is for the best.

As for Final Nights, Ur-Shulki (who is really a Baali) broke the curse: therefore Warriors crave and seek Vitae of the Cainites.
They still could feed of off whatever, so penalties for humans or rats are not lore friendly. Sorry.

In my opinion, Frenzy check should be made whenever our Warrior is close to a Cainite (but not a Ghoul), with difficulty influenced by Bloodpool satiation. So, a sate Assamite is a good Assamite, able to control himself. A hungry Assamite might snap and try to eat the Prince (but not suceed)...
As a result, Assamites are feared. Penalty to Social (but not Intimidation ) are therefore also an option.

Feral wrote:

...
As a result, Assamites are feared. Penalty to Social (but not Intimidation ) are therefore also an option.

But this penalty should only apply to people who know about Assamites. Kindred and maybe ghouls, but not normal humans.

Childe of Malkav wrote:

Feral wrote:

...
As a result, Assamites are feared. Penalty to Social (but not Intimidation ) are therefore also an option.

But this penalty should only apply to people who know about Assamites. Kindred and maybe ghouls, but not normal humans.

Well, yes. Of course. Thanks for pointing it out.

Zer0Morph wrote:

Karavolos wrote:

You sound so forced about it. "Guess I'm agreein' with Karavolos; the depths I sink to".
Actually sounds like something I imagine Malkav would say

Yes, agreeing with Karavolos is something I strive not to do, but in this case, I guess you were right, LOL. Just kidding! No, really I thought what you said made sense, sincerely.  

After reading the additional posts after the one Karavolos made, especially Kyoden's most recent post, it would make sense to not switch from Vizier to Warriors. Not to mention what MxM said about making level 1 Quietus useless. I also like the fact that only 2 clans now have Obfuscate, not 3. Obfuscate is a very unique discipline so when almost half of the clans in TFN had it, Obfuscate lost some of its charm.

So now we have the disciplines balanced like this...
3 - Auspex
2 - Obfuscate
2 - Potence

I like this balance, it makes sense. Hopefully more people will try out the Samedi now that Setites don't have Obfuscate anymore. Not to mention I hated how similar Baali and Setites were before the change. They both had Presence and Obfuscate and both were charming corruptor clans. Now that the Setites are more physical and brutal, it brings more attention to the Baali making them more unique.

You have the Osebo, straight up physical and brutal, then you have the opposite end of the spectrum with the Baali, quiet corrupters, and now you have the middle ground with the Setites who can really go either way or a blend of both. They have the +1 Persuasion and Serpentis and Presence discipline, but also have Potence and can shapeshift into Apep's Semblance if you want to go the melee route. They really are a versatile clan now.

I posted this in the Diablerie thread so I'll repost it here. I think we came to an answer on this.

I'm confused. Are you changing the Setites or not?

As for diablerie, maybe you can include it during the blood hunt? Do not quote me here as I know nothing about VTM, but isn't a blood hunt usually the end for a vampire? As far as I know it's a pretty BIG thing that usually nobody survives, so diablerizing a vampire during that desperate time kinda makes sense? Maybe?
Claudia and the rest lore masters? Will you agree?

Gameplay-wise it shouldn't be a problem for the social aspect of the game as I don't remember the player having any social options after the blood hunt.

End of a Vampire in the city anyways; I'm not 100 but I think if another Prince would be willing to house them then the first one can't touch them without involving Archons and/or Justicars.

Karavolos wrote:

End of a Vampire in the city anyways; I'm not 100 but I think if another Prince would be willing to house them then the first one can't touch them without involving Archons and/or Justicars.

True. And they would involve Archons/Justicars or anyone really. To send an urn to the Prince of the original city and cash in a favor at a later date.

The only means of survival would be to join the Sabbat or go Autrakis. Both virtually suicidal ones.

As for the Blood Hunt, I don't know. Survival is usually not an option, that is true. The only reason the PC is able to survive is because of relatively low Generation, as for New World's standards. Which is the bait for 10-13th Gen participants: to drop a ladder or two and be moar powerful!
In any European city an 8th Gen would have been ashed by 5-7th Gen Elders or Mathusalehs even before getting out of bed.

I see one more problem: for the PC (not us players) to know what to do and how, somebody would have to send the tip. Elders do not, for their own sake. Youngbloods do not know...

Jack, maybe? He does seem like a guy who wouldn't give a fuck about that.

Feral wrote:

I see one more problem: for the PC (not us players) to know what to do and how, somebody would have to send the tip. Elders do not, for their own sake. Youngbloods do not know...

That's another good point by Feral. Remember how you can't create a ghoul until you find out how from Mercurio or Knox? We would need special new dialogue or literature (like the Baali book) for the player to learn how to do that too.

I was thinking and remembered how our Assamite was a Vizier so there is a precedent of having a bloodline instead of the main body of the clan. I no longer oppose this change, though I still don't quite support it.

There is a problem with the Warriors though: they start with Obfuscate and then learn Potence. To fit the embrace requirement histories should be changed a bit (but that's a minor problem)

MxM wrote:

There is a problem with the Warriors though: they start with Obfuscate and then learn Potence. To fit the embrace requirement histories should be changed a bit (but that's a minor problem)

From what I was reading, they start with Obfuscate at level 1 but quickly forget it and begin learning Potence right away. So from a lore perspective, just leaving the small time that Warriors have Obfuscate out of the game, doesn't really bother me. Explaining such a minor detail would be more trouble than it's worth in terms of story line. Just my opinion.

I don't see how one "forgets" a Discipline all-together like that; makes no sense to me.

Let's see, so we now have....

3 Clans - Auspex
3 Clans - Presence
2 Clans - Potence
2 Clans - Obfuscate

Could the balance be any more perfect? With Auspex helping the player find items, hack bank accounts, and shoot things, and Presence being used in dialogue by boosting social stats temporarily, we have some REAL goodies in store for 1.4.

I'm so excited I could poop in my own pants!!

*Squish*

Eeeeewwwwww

Karavolos wrote:

I don't see how one "forgets" a Discipline all-together like that; makes no sense to me.

Read this cool little article about them, and how conditioning can alter a Kindred's access to disciplines.
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Warrior_Setites

Karavolos wrote:

I don't see how one "forgets" a Discipline all-together like that; makes no sense to me.

I believe it's more like, they start out with an affinity for Obfuscate like the regular followers, but if they are trained in a warrior mindset as soon as they are sired or even before, this affinity actually changes to Potence instead.

Griff wrote:

I believe it's more like, they start out with an affinity for Obfuscate like the regular followers, but if they are trained in a warrior mindset as soon as they are sired or even before, this affinity actually changes to Potence instead.

That's exactly how I understood it as well.

http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Warrior_Setites
They start with Obfuscate and then learn Potence. The Warrior line is not passed through the Embrace, they start as Followers and then they can change if trained...
(I like the Followers a lot )
Edit : I didn't read the previous 2 posts while writing

What V20 has to say about Warrior Setites:

Quote :

A mortal Embraced by a warrior Setite becomes a “normal” member of the line (that is, learning Obfuscate as a Clan Discipline) unless trained as a warrior from childe-hood. The line is therefore an example of how training and ideology can change the basic makeup of a vampire’s Clan.

I have changed my mind entirely on the matter and now fully support having Warrior Setites. We already have a Presence + Obfuscate combination in the Baali and the use of bloodlines instead of the clan's main body has a precedent in the use of the Assamite Vizier.

I would however suggest using the bloodline name in clan selection. So call them Warrior Setites rather than Followers of Seth and Assamite Viziers instead of Assamites.

Dragatus wrote:

I have changed my mind entirely on the matter and now fully support having Warrior Setites. We already have a Presence + Obfuscate combination in the Baali and the use of bloodlines instead of the clan's main body has aprecedent in the sue of the Assamite Vizier.

W00t w00t! I love you Draggy, have I mentioned that today?

Dragatus wrote:

I would however suggest using the bloodline name in clan selection. So call them Warrior Setites rather than Followers of Seth and Assamite Viziers instead of Assamites.

Ultimately I agree with you and I renamed "Followers of Set" to "Warriors of Set". The problem with doing that is the clan order gets messed up completely. Assamites and Baali stay the same, but every clan after Baali gets moved up 1 space and the Warriors become clan #7. This literally affects EVERYTHING. Dialogues are messed up, disciplines are messed up, histories are messed up, cut scenes like the theater are messed up, etc....

Can this be corrected? Yes, with hours and weeks and months of work and many more with hunting down the numerous bugs this will create. To avoid this, we can either leave the name Followers of Set or rename the clan but keep it between the letters B and I (Baali and Ishtarri). Renaming Assamites to Assamite Vizier is no problem because the clan name is still 1st.

Ideas on how we can properly change the name and still keep it clan #3?

Lastly, I did change the Vizier clan logo to the appropriate one, however the Warriors use the same clan logo as the Followers.