New Presence system in TFN 1.4

While this probably won't help to solve this ^^ He doesn't need to be of 7th Gen to use Chirop Marauder. Actually Vic can be Generation or even vampire independent. It all comes down of which part of the law you use.

Which part of the law?
I suggest the first commandment: "Thou shalt not annoy thy Modder."

kyoden wrote:

While this probably won't help to solve this ^^ He doesn't need to be of 7th Gen to use Chirop Marauder. Actually Vic can be Generation or even vampire independent. It all comes down of which part of the law you use.

What nonsense is this?

kyoden wrote:

While this probably won't help to solve this ^^ He doesn't need to be of 7th Gen to use Chirop Marauder. Actually Vic can be Generation or even vampire independent. It all comes down of which part of the law you use.

Since he is the one using the discipline, it does pretty much guarantee that he has six ranks of vicissitude. I am unaware of any discipline that would allow someone weaker than the Dragon itself to fleshcraft someone from range. Even if they could, who would be the fleshcrafter using CM remotely on the Sheriff at that point?

So I made a new Ishtarri male character last night and I'm specializing in Presence to test out this new system. We decided to not have Presence affect certain characters so as of right now, nothing happens when you talk to them, however you get the full effect when you talk to those who are affected by this. This may confuse people who don't understand why it affects some NPCs and not others, so I had an idea.

What if I made a message appear that states the NPC is not being affected by your Presence, so people see that your character attempted to use it but the Kindred resisted it. I think that would help people realize your still using it but the NPC in question is too powerful to be affected by it.

What do you think?

Sounds decent.

Sounds immersion breaking.

Maybe an explanation on one of the loading screens early on...?

Feral wrote:

Sounds immersion breaking.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying then, it's the perfect solution and keeps the person immersed. I'll demonstrate it in the video.

Okay, I set it up so Presence 3-5 says the following at the top of the screen when you begin dialogue...

Success - "NPC is influenced by your Presence" (When Dialogue begins, particles and activation sound plays)
"NPC is no longer influenced by your Presence" (When Dialogue ends, particles end and deactivation sound plays)

Failure - "NPC is resisting your Presence" (When Dialogue begins, particles and activation sound plays)
No message display (When Dialogue ends, particles end and deactivation sound plays)

Hm, that does work to show if the effect is active or not. But there is still the lore problem. If the prince, Isaak, Strauss, or Terese find out that you try to influence them with presence (in Elysium on top of that), they most probably wouldn't just let it pass.

Childe of Malkav wrote:

Hm, that does work to show if the effect is active or not. But there is still the lore problem. If the prince, Isaak, Strauss, or Terese find out that you try to influence them with presence (in Elysium on top of that), they most probably wouldn't just let it pass.

Can't I just ask them to play nice?

Remember, some kindred who really hone their skills in Presence begin doing it without even realizing it. It's on all the time for them, it's in their very nature. When I think of higher levels of Presence, I think of this.

Zer0Morph wrote:

Can't I just ask them to play nice?

Play nice? LaCroix?

And they would know how?
I always played with presence being a "emotional tilt" to the victim. If it doesn't work, it just didn't work. They may feel a slight emotional twinge, but shrug it off, or they most likely feel nothing.
"Ahh, look, the brat made us mud cakes, how cute. You've still got dirty hands though. Go wash up!"

As far as I remember they're always affected, it's just that if they're 3 generations or more lower than you, they'll always realize that and be able to negate it without much effort.

Younger vampires might not know about this discipline or not being able to resist it, but Elders won't have either of those problems. I think they'll know.

Maybe you can change the message to "It's unwise to use presence on elders" or something along that line. Otherwise tip in the loading screen should also be fine.

The way you've phrased the message make it anti-lore, which was why we had this entire 3 pages discussion. If they resisted it, they would know.

YamiRaziel wrote:

The way you've phrased the message make it anti-lore, which was why we had this entire 3 pages discussion. If they resisted it, they would know.

How is the way I phrased it against lore? I just don't see how an elder would be offended by a younger vampire using Presence while speaking to an elder. I would think it would be the same as a younger vampire using Potence while talking... who cares. I could see Domination, Dementation, or Serpentis being offensive to use because it directly assaults the elder, but Presence?

I mean, the lore states that regular users of Presence often use it without even realizing it. I don't see how an elder would be offended and feel the need to punish the fledgling for using it in conversation whether intentional or not.

Zer0Morph wrote:

How is the way I phrased it against lore? I just don't see how an elder would be offended by a younger vampire using Presence while speaking to an elder.

The same way that an elder who is not affected by Dominate would be offended by its use nevertheless. It's a blatant and unsubtle way to sway their minds, and especially from a fledgling, it's a major fauxpas. Remember, disciplines are explicitly forbidden in Elysium, and even if nobody sticks to that rule, being found breaking it still makes you a target for the Harpies ... and, of course, the other party's revenge, since using disciplines is a very heavy-handed tactic. Natural charisma is always better than Presence, because it can affect anybody if used correctly, unlike a discipline, which has its limits.

I guess our interpretations are different on what Presence is and how it's used.

Zer0 is it possible that you're using an older core book? This doesn't seem to be the description of V20.

Also, keep in mind that a 10th gen new vampire will still be a fledgeling. Why shouldn't an elder be afraid of fledgelings. Social status and potential are two different things. Elders are mostly afraid to lose their power and dominance and their biggest fear are young vampires. According to them if too many try to take their power, some day somebody will succeed. As in Bloodlines, fledgelings can have quite potent blood and be super powerful.
Do you realize that in the game, the player is the same generation as Smiling Jack and Lacroix. Maybe even Strauss although we can't really be sure what generation he is. All elders in Bloodlines except for Becket will be initially affected by your presence. Lacroix and Jack might not even be able to resist it cause you're basically the same generation even though they are 300-400 hundred years older.

The way you've phrased it means that they know they've been affected. If you are indeed a 10th generation, that means that your Sire were/is a very powerful vampire, more powerful than Jack and Lacroix themselves.

It was my impression that the elders know you're using it but they are able to resist it for one reason or another. That's why I worded it that way. Maybe I'm just lore stupid or something but I still fail to see the problem with this implementation of Presence in dialogue.

That's the thing, Zer0. Not every fledgeling is weak in the blood. In Bloodlines, for example, the fledgeling (once it masters presence) should be a serious threat to anybody but Beckett. There is no reason why wouldn't elders like Lacroix see it as an assault, since they cannot be 100% sure they'll be able to resist it. Even attempting to use presence, should make them furious. That's my understanding, at least.

Do you guys see it any other way?

I see we will do just like Troika did, - cut some lore in the good game' sake.

Just don't allow presence against elders.

Cretino wrote:

Just don't allow presence against elders.

I'm not. We've already decided not to allow the Presence bonus against elders, the debate is whether or not we should even allow the player to try but fail while Yami thinks the player should not even be allowed to try.

Here's a video of Presence in action so you have a better idea of what I'm looking at. The messages at the top weren't changed yet in the video I'll fix that.

Success - "NPC is influenced by your Presence" (When Dialogue begins, particles and activation sound plays)
"NPC is no longer influenced by your Presence" (When Dialogue ends, particles end and deactivation sound plays)

Failure - "NPC is resisting your Presence" (When Dialogue begins, particles and activation sound plays)
No message display (When Dialogue ends, particles end and deactivation sound plays)

TFN Presence Discipline (1.4) (Click on video to watch from YouTube)

Are there new lines for Presence users? It'd be fabulous.

Edit: and swaggy

I'm surprised by the lack of comments on the video. I guess that means everyone.... liked it....? Errrr... maybe not?