Political Correctness destroying US/EU?

Nothing out of the ordinary so far...

I live in a country where democracy defenders try to topple democratically elected government. Formally because the government didn't let Constitutional Tribunal judges be sworn in, because their appointment by previous government was unconstitutional and too many were appointed at once. The case was presided over by Constitutional Tribunal... Judges in own case...

Nevertheless, our democratic protesters seem to be well funded and fight the evil government that wants to collect taxes from big banks and supermarket networks instead of rising income tax. The fact the big businesses are mostly German own, de facto do not pay taxes and transfer big money to the Vaterland is of course inconsequential in the issue. Orban had it a few years ago, too...

EDIT: Breaking news: Three Arabs from Netherlands were arrested yesterday in Gdynia. They tried to illegally buy a set of Kalashnikovs and a Glock. No doubt to defend themselves from Neo-nazis...

Feral wrote:

Nothing out of the ordinary so far...

I live in a country where democracy defenders try to topple democratically elected government. Formally because the government didn't let Constitutional Tribunal judges be sworn in, because their appointment by previous government was unconstitutional and too many were appointed at once. The case was presided over by Constitutional Tribunal... Judges in own case...

Nevertheless, our democratic protesters seem to be well funded and fight the evil government that wants to collect taxes from big banks and supermarket networks instead of rising income tax. The fact the big businesses are mostly German own, de facto do not pay taxes and transfer big money to the Vaterland is of course inconsequential in the issue. Orban had it a few years ago, too...

EDIT: Breaking news: Three Arabs from Netherlands were arrested yesterday in Gdynia. They tried to illegally buy a set of Kalashnikovs and a Glock.  No doubt to defend themselves from Neo-nazis...

Your businesses are germany-owned too? But the China is threat, they will buy us all, the China, China, CHINAAAAAA!!!
Don't let your faith in justice and sunflowers be swayed by those false accusations of those innocent sand-netherlanders, made surely by evil extreme right wing nazi nationalist. We need more of the here, all of them! We need to open our borders, hearts and asses to them!

Jad.3 wrote:

We need more of the here, all of them! We need to open our borders, hearts and asses to them!

The last one is a poor idea... Middle Easterners are poor at that game: most of them cares only about their own pleasure and finishes way too soon. Europeans are somewhere in the middle (results vary by nationality ), while black boys are the best. They have that nice habit of making sure they made you happy.

You know what, Feral? Because I sure don't!

As for Sweden:

Wow! Another European country gets taken over by Liberals and Muslims. What a shame. After Europe is completely overrun by these two groups working together, I wonder if they will take over the West.

Good video about the Leftist Utopian Virus

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This should be taken with a grain of salt, but as far as I can tell by what I myself try to look for it feels condescending to Jad, as an atheist, when what he tries to argue gets utterly dismissed by little more than "you just haven't found the truth yet" and/or "I'll pray to my superior being that you'll start agreeing with me" and turn to said superior being as an authority figure when Jad doesn't at all believe it exists.

Here's the problem Kara, I too spent most of my 36 years as an agnostic/atheist so I know where you guys are coming from, I really do. But as Jesus came knocking on my door these past few years, and I had the open mind to cautiously allow him into my life, everything began to change, for the better. I know what it's like to be blind, unable to see, wading through the darkness, but Jesus opened my eyes and I see an entirely new truth that I never knew was there, until he showed me. Jesus has shown me more miracles, more evidence of his existence, and more truth as to the purpose of life, that I can no longer deny his existence, even if you guys do.

So the problem is, I see something that you guys cannot see... yet, and that doesn't make me any better or worse, or wiser than you, but it does set us apart. So for me to try to explain Jesus to you is like trying to explain color to a blind person, it's just not going to make any sense until the blindness is removed. So though it may sound condescending, like I'm saying "Hey! Look at me! I can see colors and you can't because your blind, haha!" I promise you, that's not the case, because I know what it's like to be blind and it's miserable. I just hope one day you guys can experience what I have experienced, through Jesus.

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Faith is belief without evidence...

That's not true, Kara, here's the definition of Faith.

Faith
/fāTH/
noun: faith
1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

I do have complete faith is Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior AND I have all the evidence in the world to support his existence and purpose. I have seen him do things in my life that words cannot explain, nor science, and the blessings he has in store for those who will open their minds and hearts to him, and unimaginable and amazing.

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At the end of the day, religion is best kept to yourself (if I recall, Jesus said the same thing along the words of "don't do as the hypocrites and pray in public, but rather at home in your closet" or something along those lines)

First off, Jesus is not religion, Jesus is truth and religion is meant to divide people and keep them far away from Christ (aka: The Truth). Secondly, Jesus was not asking people to suppress the truth in their closets but rather to spend pray time, with the Father, alone in their closets. You see, back then, the Pharisees would pray loudly and obnoxiously in public to garner attention and to make a show to get respect and infamy. Jesus was telling his people not to do that, and not be prideful, for praying to the Father is a personal matter not meant to be put on display to increase ones reputation as being holy.

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Zer0's question on where we go when we die! Nobody knows.

Once again that's not true. People who are blind and unwilling to except the truth of God, they don't know, but those who can see, who have humbly submitted their lives to Jesus, those people know exactly where they're going when they die. Just because you don't know, doesn't mean nobody knows.

To Kara and Jad,

Here are some bible versus that may help you understand my last post on being blind. I know this will make no sense to you and you will dismiss it immediately, but I'm posting them anyways hoping one day you'll read them.

John 9:39-41

And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind." Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?" Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.

Proverbs 4:18-20

But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, That shines brighter and brighter until the full day. The way of the wicked is like darkness; They do not know over what they stumble. My son, give attention to my words; Incline your ear to my sayings.…

2 Corinthians 4:3-5

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.…

Glancing through headlines of three different newspapers speak nothing of no-go zones (even in the articles speaking of immigrants), looking it up through other sources revealed a police document that doesn't speak of muslims at all (it speaks of criminal networks with strong influences in local communities, but says nothing of immigrants unless I've missed something). First line of the report states: "I Sverige finns i nuläget 55 geografiska områden där lokala kriminella nätverk anses ha negativ påverkan på lokalsamhället." which translates to "Currently in Sweden there are 55 geographic areas where local criminal networks are considered to have a negative impact on the local community". The introduction also states that for the most part, these networks are not well-organized but rather informal youth environments.

It's not to say Sweden doesn't have problems at all, our vetting process is fucked up; we take in far more than we should and some of the ones we take in are bad apples which does legitimately lead to the rise to the appeal of the right-wingers in the country who say "boot them all." But to say the country is collapsing is just not accurate; I live in the bloody place, in the southern part of it where most of them come in through next to Stockholm which is further up. There is no sheer chaos or collapse of society over it, in many cases we don't even notice it. There are places with a lot of muslims, but no Sharia law or any stuff like that. I can think of a single place which fits the description of a no-go zone, which is Rosengården in Malmö; that much I can say is legitimately a problem where even the police fears going through that has a predominantly Muslim population. The other 54 places that apparently exist (with supposed ties to Islam)? Never heard of them. Maybe I'm just weird and in the wrong place to notice.

Now the religious bit; I believe you when you say you were agnostic/atheistic Zer0, and hey; if Jesus makes you happy then by all means indulge. I don't believe Jesus has 'shown you miracles' other than what you might feel yourself to be religious due to lack of evidence that probably can't be shown depending on what the 'miracles' in question actually are, but whatever.
The whole blindness thingy is another example of where you come off, unintentionally, as condescending where you completely dismiss everything I said without substance by simply saying "oh, you're blind to the truth; but I'll pray." It might be worth noting here that a lot of atheists, myself included, were once religious in their upbringing. In my case, protestant Christianity. I won't call myself devoted but I did genuinely believe in God and Jesus and tried to live by the book. Until I actually read it. The point I'm getting at here is that if you want to convince others of a fact/truth or what have you, you can't do it by simply dismissing them and saying "you just don't see yet" because then the answer is "okay, so help me see" which then leads to a circle when you resort to the same arguments of before where "you just have to see and accept jayzuz mayn."
Disagreeing with a view doesn't mean we're blind anymore than you're blind to the notion of atheism; it just means we don't agree because of x, y and z reasons.

In my case, the very faulty nature of the Bible and other holy texts that fail to demonstrate their accuracy and actually do the opposite to me when they speak of ooo people rising from the dead after three days (Christianity), flying donkeys/horses (Islam), that engraving an elephants' head onto a severed body apparently works (Hinduism) or that we're all aliens held down by the curse of Xenu or whatever (Scientology). All this as well as lack of evidence of any actual deities is what made me become an atheist. An agnostic one, but nonetheless an atheist until someone or something divine can demonstrate that they exist; and holy texts do not do it for me, for it's too obviously man-made if only in appearance and it's a fuck of a senseless deception if it really was say, a being that could create planets, that decided to put a bunch of contradictory fairy tales on a couple of pieces of paper and hand it exclusively to people in the middle-eastern deserts.

Zer0m0rph wrote:

That's not true, Kara, here's the definition of Faith.

Faith
/fāTH/
noun: faith
1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

I wanna clarify that this was under the section of "this is how non-religious see religion." Not everyone will agree with that, of course, and I do play mostly on stereotypes, but the stereotypes arise for a reason.

Zer0m0rph wrote:

First off, Jesus is not religion, Jesus is truth and religion is meant to divide people and keep them far away from Christ (aka: The Truth). Secondly, Jesus was not asking people to suppress the truth in their closets but rather to spend pray time, with the Father, alone in their closets. You see, back then, the Pharisees would pray loudly and obnoxiously in public to garner attention and to make a show to get respect and infamy. Jesus was telling his people not to do that, and not be prideful, for praying to the Father is a personal matter not meant to be put on display to increase ones reputation as being holy.

Jesus isn't, but Christianity is. Denying that Christianity isn't a religion is just plain false; and no, religion is meant to be a gathering of people of the same faith, and it is. The separation between the religions (and the non-religious) is a side-effect of disagreements over who has the right idea.
Also I don't wanna argue Bible quotes but I will post the one passage I was referring to with the notion that more exist:

Matthew 6:5:

Zer0m0rph wrote:

Once again that's not true. People who are blind and unwilling to except the truth of God, they don't know, but those who can see, who have humbly submitted their lives to Jesus, those people know exactly where they're going when they die. Just because you don't know, doesn't mean nobody knows.

I await your evidence. Oh wait, I can't see cuz I'm blind right? BLIND TO DA TRUTH MON! Pardon the condescension there. The problem is you're making the claim and providing no evidence of it, you just keep resorting to "you have to accept jesus mayn" and we might, perhaps, see a reference to the Bible too. Want to know why I don't trust the Bible? Here. It's a long read, but I take it you can probably look it up for yourself.

http://biblebabble.curbjaw.com/bible.htm
If you don't wanna read, I'll give something a bit easier: the Bible mentioning unicorns.

Unicorns:

Need I continue? The last is this.

Zer0m0rph wrote:

To Kara and Jad,

Here are some bible versus that may help you understand my last post on being blind. I know this will make no sense to you and you will dismiss it immediately, but I'm posting them anyways hoping one day you'll read them.

John 9:39-41

And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind." Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?" Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.

Proverbs 4:18-20

But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, That shines brighter and brighter until the full day. The way of the wicked is like darkness; They do not know over what they stumble. My son, give attention to my words; Incline your ear to my sayings.…

2 Corinthians 4:3-5

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.…

For some reason I can't turn off Ital here, but whatever.
Ahem! To me all this say is "accept this claim and close your mind to anything contradicting it." They're openly telling you to not think about things and just accept it the way we say it without question (because apparently being blind is a good thing, making you sinless). And all this is ignoring for one thing the outright magic that the Bible claims on many occasions (unicorns above, the flood, demons, angels, the miracles that are scientifically impossible etc) and ignoring FURTHER how immoral God actually is as a character (did you know he has about a 2,476,623 lead on Satan over kill-counts? In numbers only, with no estimates.)
Finally, I'll post one video below that I think might be good to view over what I see when I see people treat religion as fact; if you can manage to watch the whole thing I think you'll see where I'm coming from with it. You could see it as you being objective and keeping an open mind


Now that this has been said, I think I ought to leave further debates on this topic off; it wears me down too much and I still feel woefully uncomfortable talking about religion overall, nevermind on a place like TCI. For one thing I'm lazy and for another I dislike arguing with people and aren't particularly convinced that it's going anywhere with it, whatever I might say. I'll watch for responses, and then I'll try to file out of this topic yet again.

Kara,

You're right about one thing, talking to an atheist about God is like talking to American school children in Chinese, they simple won't, nor can they, understand.

Instead of spending an hour explaining all of this (in Chinese) to you, I'm just going to part ways with this conversation. I will say, however, that I used to be you so I understand where you're coming from, not understanding anything I'm saying, and I pray that one day you can see the "other side" along with me.

In the meantime, I would like to challenge you to discard everything you've learned about religion, God, and life, and get alone sometime, away from everyone, open your mind, and pray to "God" (whoever that might be), and ask him to reveal himself to you, if he's even real. Challenge him like you're challenging me now, and see what happens. If nothing happens, then fine, continue being an atheist, knowing you tried. But make a real effort here, not a whimsical attempt. And don't already disbelieve in your heart, really shed everything and have an open mind, I mean, what do you have to lose, right?

I dare you to do this, really reach out to.... whatever is out there, and ask "IT" to reveal itself.

“You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart” (Jeremiah 29:13)

I just watched your video and it made me sad, so so sad.

Matthew 7:13-14

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Edit: This may help explain it.

The question of whether there are more people in heaven or hell is answered by Jesus Himself in one succinct passage: “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Matthew 7:13–14).

This passage tells us that only those who receive Jesus Christ and who believe in Him are given the right to become children of God (John 1:12). As such, the gift of eternal life comes only through Jesus Christ to all those who believe. He said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). It’s not through Mohammed, Buddha, or other false gods of man’s making. It’s not for those wanting a cheap and easy way to heaven while continuing to live their own selfish and worldly lives on earth. Jesus only saves those who fully trust in Him as Savior (Acts 4:12).

So, what are these two gates in Matthew 7:13–14? They are the entrance to two different “ways.” The wide gate leads to the broad way, or road. The small, narrow gate leads to the way that is narrow. The narrow way is the way of the godly, and the broad way is the way of the ungodly. The broad way is the easy way. It is attractive and self-indulgent. It is permissive. It’s the inclusive way of the world, with few rules, few restrictions, and fewer requirements. Tolerance of sin is the norm where God’s Word is not studied and His standards not followed. This way requires no spiritual maturity, no moral character, no commitment, and no sacrifice. It is the easy way of salvation, following “the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience” (Ephesians 2:2). It is that broad way that “seems right to a man, but in the end is the way to death”

Jad wrote:

A god, that allows for homeless die on the street. That allows Trump to become president Smile Oh my he allowed the Vietnam to happen!

You bring up a good point, Jad, as I've often wondered why such a perfect and powerful God would allow travesties to happen on the earth. In fact, he even lets terrible things happen to people who worship him, why is that? I found a cool little article that helped me understand.

If there is an all-knowing, all-powerful God, then we would expect His motivations for action to be, in many cases, unknown to us. Since there would be so many things that He would know and we would not, it would be virtually impossible for us to understand His reasons for certain actions unless He condescended to explain them. As Isaiah the prophet wrote: “‘For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,’ says the Lord. ‘For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts’” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

In one sense we could liken God’s relationship to humans to the knowledge that a five-year-old child would have of some of the actions of her parents. Suppose a child sees a parent pull out a small, rectangular checkbook, write something on a check, pull the check out and put it in an envelope, place a stamp on it, and put it in the mail. The child might ask, “Mommy, why did you do that?” The mother might respond, “So that we can keep driving our car without the bank taking it from us.” How could the child possibly connect a piece of paper to driving a car? Without knowing the details of how a check represents money, how the car was purchased from a dealership, how the bank loaned the parents money, etc., then the child could not grasp the significance of the check.

In a similar way, there are things that God has done that we humans can never fully understand for the simple reason that God has not told us why He has done them. Or, perhaps He has told us, but His answer does not give all the details that our human curiosity might wish. Moses well understood this idea when he wrote: “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which have been revealed belong to us and our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law” (Deuteronomy 29:29). Some things God tells us; some things He does not.

Y'all motherfuckers need the Flying Spagetti Monster. Let his noodly appendages warm your heart and meaty nutritious goodness fill your soul, as well as lessons that it's impolite to speak of politics and religion at the dinner table.



And given the posts on this thread, this thread has become as much a joke as Pastafarnairanism is as well. Leaving it too.

Dismissed again with the previous condescension of "I KNOW TEH TR00FS" while addressing none of the arguments, explaining why the Bible apparently holds greater sway despite what other flaws it also holds and instead only giving "HERE'S SUM RELIGION" for my throat. And this, Jad, is why I don't bother arguing religion.
I've put enough time, energy and effort into this; I'm leaving too. Again.

Isn't it awesome how sure brainwashed people are?

Quote :

while addressing none of the arguments

Let's pick one of your arguments and address it then. You wrote many arguments at once and it would take forever to reply, so let's pick one at a time and discuss it. You choose and I'll do my best to answer it.

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If you don't wanna read, I'll give something a bit easier: the Bible mentioning unicorns.

I did some research on your quote about the bible talking about unicorns, and why atheist love to dismiss the bible because of it. Here's a good explanation for you.

"However, it is important to understand that the definition of the word “unicorn” has changed over time.

If you get an old 1828 Noah Webster’s Dictionary, which is the very first edition dictionary that Webster came out with about 200 years ago, and look up the word “unicorn” it says:

Unicorn – An animal with one horn; the monoceros. this name is often applied to the rhinoceros.

Now let's look at the modern day Merriam-Webster dictionary version of the same word.

Unicorn - a mythical animal generally depicted with the body and head of a horse, the hind legs of a stag, the tail of a lion, and a single horn in the middle of the forehead"

http://creationtoday.org/why-does-the-bible-mention-unicorns/

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I don't believe Jesus has 'shown you miracles' other than what you might feel yourself to be religious due to lack of evidence that probably can't be shown depending on what the 'miracles' in question actually are, but whatever.

How can you... 1.) You're not me, you don't know what I've experienced in life so you can't possibly judge me, or tell me that my "so-called religious experiences" were simply in my head. 2.) Once again, you can't possibly understand the miracles I've witness and experienced, as referring to trying to explain colors to a blind person who's never seen color. The problem here, is that you and I were both blind, but now I can see and I'm trying to explain to you what color looks like, but because you've never seen colors, you're fit to tell me they don't exist and the colors are simply in my head. That's the very definition of close-mindedness.

Quote :

Disagreeing with a view doesn't mean we're blind anymore than you're blind to the notion of atheism; it just means we don't agree because of x, y and z reasons.

How can I be blind to the notion of atheism when I used to be atheist and I've found it to be flawed and untrue. God DOES exist even when I believed he didn't. What I believed was wrong and untruthful.

The truth is not a view, it's the truth. 2+2 always equals 4. It never equals 2, 3, or 5, it only equals 4, whether you agree with it or not. The truth is not a view, it's a fact, so saying something isn't true, when it IS true, makes you blind, or a liar. Which are you?

Quote :

In my case, the very faulty nature of the Bible and other holy texts that fail to demonstrate their accuracy and actually do the opposite to me when they speak of ooo people rising from the dead after three days (Christianity), flying donkeys/horses (Islam), that engraving an elephants' head onto a severed body apparently works (Hinduism) or that we're all aliens held down by the curse of Xenu or whatever (Scientology). All this as well as lack of evidence of any actual deities is what made me become an atheist. An agnostic one, but nonetheless an atheist until someone or something divine can demonstrate that they exist; and holy texts do not do it for me, for it's too obviously man-made if only in appearance and it's a fuck of a senseless deception if it really was say, a being that could create planets, that decided to put a bunch of contradictory fairy tales on a couple of pieces of paper and hand it exclusively to people in the middle-eastern deserts.

Do you remember what I said above?

“You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart” (Jeremiah 29:13)

As long as your heart and mind is closed to the existence God, you will never find him or see proof sufficient enough to convince you of anything. Even the pharisees witnessed miracles by Jesus and still dismissed him. A blind and corrupt heart only sees what it wants to see. But I can promise you one thing, before the end comes, you will be kneeling before the Lord ready to be judged, as all of us will, but then it will be too late for you.

Proverbs 9:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."

This thread is a fucking train wreck

So, Feral, what do you think about horse races and dog races, specially betting on them?

ThePhilosopher wrote:

This thread is a fucking train wreck

Indeed. This time though I actually think there's something worth replying to. So starting with the unicorn bit, you seem to have a point with it, Zer0, as the word well; to be lazy:

Etymology of the word wrote:

unicorn (n.)
early 13c., from Old French unicorne, from Late Latin unicornus (Vulgate), from noun use of Latin unicornis (adj.) "having one horn," from uni- "one" (see uni-) + cornus "horn," from PIE *ker- (1) "horn; head, uppermost part of the body" (see horn (n.)).

The Late Latin word translates Greek monoceros, itself rendering Hebrew re'em (Deut. xxxiii.17 and elsewhere), which probably was a kind of wild ox. According to Pliny, a creature with a horse's body, deer's head, elephant's feet, lion's tail, and one black horn two cubits long projecting from its forehead. Compare German Einhorn, Welsh ungorn, Breton uncorn, Old Church Slavonic ino-rogu.

With this said however, mind you that unicorns is only one thing that is considered unrealistic and ridiculous in the Bible. The link I posted before I went on about unicorns- which I'm still not sure how an ox or so fits into the description since they have more than one horn -contains a multitude of other examples of inaccuracies, contradictions and I don't even know what else. People living until they're 900+? Plants being created before the sun? Angels? Demons? Giants? Implying the earth is flat (four corners of the earth)? Nevermind how it keeps raising the bar on where God/heaven is. 'He's in the sky!' well we reached the skies, no God. 'He's in space!' Nope, none that we can see. 'He's in a higher plane of existence/alternate dimension!' We'll see, but at this point it's unlikely.

Zer0m0rph wrote:

How can you... 1.) You're not me, you don't know what I've experienced in life so you can't possibly judge me, or tell me that my "so-called religious experiences" were simply in my head. 2.) Once again, you can't possibly understand the miracles I've witness and experienced, as referring to trying to explain colors to a blind person who's never seen color. The problem here, is that you and I were both blind, but now I can see and I'm trying to explain to you what color looks like, but because you've never seen colors, you're fit to tell me they don't exist and the colors are simply in my head. That's the very definition of close-mindedness.

The keyword in my statement there is "why I believe." For all I know, the existence of a deity or deities could be legitimate; but I don't believe there is based around what I perceive to be a lack of evidence for it.
To me the statement that "you cannot possibly understand the miracles I've witnessed" is a cheap way of ending an argument because "I just can't see." I can understand if it's difficult to try and explain it, but just because I don't agree with what I hear doesn't mean I can't understand it. What is it you experienced even? Is it a sensation of warmth when praying? A feeling of your soul being lighter and more at ease? Did water turn into wine in your sink?
I may see more scientific explanations to the former two, but that doesn't mean I can't understand how you might feel that there is some divine power to it.

Zer0m0rph wrote:

How can I be blind to the notion of atheism when I used to be atheist and I've found it to be flawed and untrue. God DOES exist even when I believed he didn't. What I believed was wrong and untruthful.

The truth is not a view, it's the truth. 2+2 always equals 4. It never equals 2, 3, or 5, it only equals 4, whether you agree with it or not. The truth is not a view, it's a fact, so saying something isn't true, when it IS true, makes you blind, or a liar. Which are you?

How can I be blind to the notion of God when I used to be a Christian and I've since found the religion to be flawed and most likely untrue? See how it works?
The truth is indeed not a view, what is a view is our perception of the truth. If God does indeed exist, he's doing a piss-poor job of trying to represent himself or even show that he exist; if he didn't then we wouldn't debate the topic of his existence would we? He'd be a fact, not a claim posted by a religion out of how many that exist on the planet again? Sufficed to say, I'm still an agnostic atheist and don't dismiss the possibility a deity or several might exist. Know what would make me shift my position to theism? Evidence. When you say "God DOES exist" all that comes to mind for me are two things:
1. "No evidence posted."
2. "K, what is your evidence that he does? Can you prove it to me? Or at least make the theory seem likely?"

Zer0m0rph wrote:

Do you remember what I said above?

“You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart” (Jeremiah 29:13)

As long as your heart and mind is closed to the existence God, you will never find him or see proof sufficient enough to convince you of anything. Even the pharisees witnessed miracles by Jesus and still dismissed him. A blind and corrupt heart only sees what it wants to see. But I can promise you one thing, before the end comes, you will be kneeling before the Lord ready to be judged, as all of us will, but then it will be too late for you.

Proverbs 9:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Well again, I'm not closed to the possibility of deities; I'm just not seeing evidence. For one thing, remember that I used to be a Christian. You don't think when my faith got shaky that I tried to reach out to God in hope of getting some sign? And back then I wasn't as "spoiled" as I am now, all I asked for then was something like a gust of wind or a noise or something falling over or just anything that showed there was something there listening. Needless to say, I didn't get anything. The five or so times I tried. Sufficed to say, I have tried reaching out, and it doesn't work. And as far as Jesus' miracles go? If that stuff happened again, and we could demonstrate it's not some parlour trick but he's legitimately walking on water or turning water to wine, know what I would do? I'd become a theist. By that point we do have demonstrable evidence to the existence of a higher force. Know what we lack today? That evidence. We have an old book that claim he did it, that's it.

Nobody is saying magic is real cuz Harry Potter says so right? But okay, we know that's fiction. How about the Quoran? It says sperm comes from your backbone. Hey! It's an old book that says it's real! It's a major religion! Eh? EEH??
What about the old Aesir tales? Did you know that the reason we have tides is cuz the giants drinks out the ocean in reference to how Thor managed to lower it after being fooled into a drinking contest with them? It's ancient tales, Zer0! Must be real! Yeah we still lack the actual evidence any of this is real; all we have is the claim, be it the Bible claiming Jesus performed miracles, the Quoran saying Muhammed was the chosen of Allah or old Scandinavian runes saying Loki gave birth to an eight-legged horse.

For another thing know what I see when I read those quotes now? "Close your mind and keep telling yourself that it's true. When you think it's true, then you understand." If you have to close off everything you know in order to believe, then you're not being rational and scientific about your approach to try and understand things.
We didn't used to believe Komodo Dragons existed either, but they did. Know what made us accept them as a fact of reality? We could demonstrate they exist, we have physical proof.
Religion has to run on faith because it cannot demonstrate that it's claims are accurate; it cannot prove heaven exist, it cannot prove we go to the underworld when we die, it cannot prove we reincarnate, and it cannot prove that the fire god must be appeased to create a fire. That's why it says "close off everything you know and accept the truth." Therein lies the reasons why Komodo Dragons are a fact, and God isn't. Even those who didn't believe Komodo Dragons existed could go look upon them; with God you have to believe until you die regardless of what anybody else say or else you go to hell.

=EDIT=

Zer0m0rph wrote:

In the meantime, I would like to challenge you to discard everything you've learned about religion, God, and life, and get alone sometime, away from everyone, open your mind, and pray to "God" (whoever that might be), and ask him to reveal himself to you, if he's even real. Challenge him like you're challenging me now, and see what happens. If nothing happens, then fine, continue being an atheist, knowing you tried. But make a real effort here, not a whimsical attempt. And don't already disbelieve in your heart, really shed everything and have an open mind, I mean, what do you have to lose, right?

I never challenged you, but as I do wanna address this. As said above somewhere, I have done that. I did it when I first started questioning the Christian faith which I was afraid to do at the time out of fear of hell and eternal damnation. For one thing I never got any replies, and for another I began to realize more and more that if you have to reinforce your belief in the face of evidence purely by faith, then you're not intellectually honest with yourself, and the longer it went with no result in the latter two efforts after I had began growing more open towards the notion that there was no God, I began considering myself an atheist.
Second, discarding everything you know is not an honest position as far as I'm concerned. I mean, imagine if you told me "discard everything you know about thunder and try to believe Zeus is behind it," can we not both agree that that's not a legitimate way of being scientifically objective?

Finally I wanna ask one thing to try and understand how you came to the conclusion that God is real and Jesus is his son etc etc: what evidence convinced you? What experiences did you go through that made you think that the Bible specifically (unless I'm mistaken and you also listen to the Torah and Quoran, as Abrahamic religions) had it right? What do you think it would take to change your position on religion [to point it out again, for me I would convert to theism if I saw more evidence- or proof -in favor for than against]? Do you feel any guttural turning to read the former question along with a feeling of resistance because you don't wanna give up 'the truth'? Can you try telling the story of how you came to convert to Christianity, or otherwise believe that God is real etc you know how it goes?

Cretino wrote:

So, Feral, what do you think about horse races and dog races, specially betting on them?

I think it is one way to keep the horses and dogs employed, so in the end alive. As for betting, I am too broke to do that.

Feral wrote:

Cretino wrote:

So, Feral, what do you think about horse races and dog races, specially betting on them?

I think it is one way to keep the horses and dogs employed, so in the end alive. As for betting, I am too broke to do that.

Remember that topic about wod creatures doing masquerade fun stuff? Maybe you could shapeshift and race for some easy money

Joining a game show for dogs perhaps?

Karavolos wrote:

Joining a game show for dogs perhaps?

I am not shifting into a poodle!!!

Kara,

I appreciate the response. You covered A LOT of material so it's going to take me some time to go through it all, so bear with me.

Bible Inaccuracies Explained

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People living until they're 900+

There is no precise Biblical answer to this question, but I can offer some ideas. First of all, when God made Adam and Eve, they were sinless and basically physically perfect. When sin entered the world, there was an obviously harmful effect upon their bodies. They died. Genetically speaking, when they were first made, their health was so good that their natural inclination was to live a long time. Over time, you see a decline of long life until you get to present day. You can google this question and get even more potential answers, but the bible doesn't specifically say.

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Plants being created before the sun?

Where did you get that? Nowhere in the bible have I ever seen that God created plants before the sun.

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Angels? Demons?

I can attest that angels and demons are both real, because I've seen an angel with my own two eyes and I've felt or been attacked by demons on 3 occasions in my life, all before I was even a believer.

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Giants?

Giants? Really? Where in the bible do they talk about giants? If you're referring to Goliath, he wasn't a Dungeons and Dragon's giant, he was simply a tall, well built man for his age and time.

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Implying the earth is flat (four corners of the earth)?

No, this false idea is not taught in Scripture.

Some Bible critics have claimed that Revelation 7:1 assumes a flat earth since the verse refers to angels standing at the “four corners” of the earth. Actually, the reference is to the cardinal directions: north, south, east, and west. Similar terminology is often used today when we speak of the sun's rising and setting, even though the earth, not the sun, is doing the moving. Bible writers used the “language of appearance,” just as people always have. Without it, the intended message would be awkward at best and probably not understood clearly.

In the Old Testament, Job 26:7 explains that the earth is suspended in space, the obvious comparison being with the spherical sun and moon.

A literal translation of Job 26:10 is “He described a circle upon the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end.” A spherical earth is also described in Isaiah 40:21-22—“the circle of the earth.”

In fact, legend states that Christopher Columbus desired to sail west to find India because the bible declared that the earth was round.

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Nevermind how it keeps raising the bar on where God/heaven is. 'He's in the sky!' well we reached the skies, no God. 'He's in space!' Nope, none that we can see. 'He's in a higher plane of existence/alternate dimension!' We'll see, but at this point it's unlikely.

Good luck trying to find a shapeless formless entity like God. He doesn't have a physical body like we do, so you can journey through the skies, space, black holes, wherever, you won't find him. He is omnipotent, he's everywhere at the same time, something our tiny puny minds can't comprehend.

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The keyword in my statement there is "why I believe." For all I know, the existence of a deity or deities could be legitimate; but I don't believe there is based around what I perceive to be a lack of evidence for it.

Let's focus on the "Lack of Evidence for God". If you and I were standing on the top of a tall sky scraper, looking out over a vast city full of buildings, and I pointed to the tallest building and said, "Prove to me that there was a designer, a creator of this building.", what would you say?

Well logically you would reply with "That's easy, the building itself is proof that there was a creator, a designer of that building."

And you would be correct. The building itself is proof that there was a creator. Common sense tells us that something as complicated as a building, with electricity, elevators, internet communications, and lighting, didn't just simply appear, they were designed and created by someone intelligent. Then why in your logical mind would you believe that the earth, nature, physics, the universe, were all just randomly put here by chance and no intelligent design. The evidence of God's existence is EVERYWHERE, just look in the mirror, go outside, look up at the sky, listen to the birds chirp, he made all of this.

Have you ever wondered why ancient cultures that have never even heard of God all have similar laws and codes of morality? Take for instance, lying, murder, stealing, are all considered bad in every culture across the globe. Why is that? Why is it that we don't have to be taught that these things are bad. When someone comes and steals your shit, nobody has to tell you that you've been wronged, you know you have, and naturally you seek justice. Why is that? Where did we get that information from? Perhaps God imprinted a basic moral code on to everyone he created? I think so yes. More evidence of God's existence?

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What is it you experienced even?

I will respond to your question with a bible verse.

Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

My personal experiences with God, I only share with other believers. To share something as special and intimate as something like this with an unbeliever would be like "throwing my pearls to swine". Perhaps at a later time we can talk about this... when you're ready.

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How can I be blind to the notion of God when I used to be a Christian and I've since found the religion to be flawed and most likely untrue? See how it works?

Before we can even discuss this, we have to agree on what a Christian is. Many people call themselves Christians when they are in fact, NOT Christians at all. They are wolves in sheep's wool, hiding, waiting, plotting, to destroy the name of Jesus Christ.

A Christian, a TRUE Christian is someone who has given over everything they are, everything they own, their heart, their money, their possessions, their careers, their relationships, their dreams, and their life over to Jesus Christ. A TRUE Christian is someone who has had a personal one on one encounter with God, have confessed of all of their sins to him, and have repented, and have a 100% dedication and desire to spend the rest of their life pursuing Christ with their whole heart.

Does this sound like you? Of course not. Kara my friend, you were never a Christian.

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The truth is indeed not a view, what is a view is our perception of the truth. If God does indeed exist, he's doing a piss-poor job of trying to represent himself or even show that he exist; if he didn't then we wouldn't debate the topic of his existence would we? He'd be a fact, not a claim posted by a religion out of how many that exist on the planet again? Sufficed to say, I'm still an agnostic atheist and don't dismiss the possibility a deity or several might exist. Know what would make me shift my position to theism? Evidence. When you say "God DOES exist" all that comes to mind for me are two things:
1. "No evidence posted."
2. "K, what is your evidence that he does? Can you prove it to me? Or at least make the theory seem likely?"

The truth is indeed not a view, what is a view is our perception of the truth. - I can agree to that statement.

God is not doing a piss-poor job of representing himself. "He who has ears, let him hear, and those who do not, let them dismiss me." Not even God can convince a corrupt heart, someone who has already dismissed him and turned their back on him. You see, God cannot show himself to you because you won't let him. You will only find God when...

Jeremiah 29:12-13 "Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart."

I know I sound like a broken record here, but I'm going to keep posting this verse over and over until you hear me. I have posted plenty of evidence and I have proven to you God's existence in as limited of fashion as possible given your blindness. But if you truly want to find God, you have to want too, nobody can do it for you.

I'll be honest with you Kara, you're an intelligent guy, clearly, and unlike many of the other atheists on this forum, you actually seem to care about your soul and relationship with God, and I think you're closer than you realize to having a personal relationship with Christ. I'm praying that one day, God will get you alone and find you, and reveal himself to you as he did for me, because life will truly be worth living after that time.

If you're serious about finding him, order this book. It's the book that REALLY helped me find the answers you're looking for, as I had the same questions. One Heartbeat Away changed my life forever and got me really studying the bible for the first time. If for some reason you can't afford it, I can get you the free .mp3 version so you can listen to it. I'm not a fan of reading so I listened to the audio version.

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I see you have much more you've written but I need to head to lunch because I'm at work. I'll try my best to answer these later, but for now, I think I've given you something to munch on. *nom nom*