what's better?

what's best for VTMB?

They way the game is set up now, Persuasion is better than Intimidate or Seduction -- more versatile. And I end up with so much extra gold, I'd rather not waste XP on raising Haggle.

I think Zer0Morph is going to make Haggle more important in The Final Nights mod. Maybe Intimidate and Seduction too, not sure.

don't you need high haggle feat to get better stuff at stors?

In the original Bloodlines, Persuasion was king hands down and Seduction was a distant second. Intimidation was just about worthless and Haggle was virtually non exist in purpose.

With CE, at least with Malkav's Email College I think Haggle had a little more purpose and Intimidation and Seduction are still at the bottom of the list in terms of importance. High Seduction can make feeding much more convenient in CE, but I still feel that Persuasion is at the top of "must haves" for social skills.

TFN is whole different beast altogether. Obviously it comes with many new features like clans, disciplines, bla bla bla you've heard it all before BUT, we are incorporating a several new systems called "The TFN Haggle System" and "The TFN Citizen Seduction System". Without going too far with it in this CE thread, just know that Haggle and Seduction will be on-par with Persusasion in terms of effectiveness. I also have plans for Intimidation but haven't made any final decisions. Haggle and Citizen Seduction has already been started in the creation process and is going to completely change the strategy of Bloodlines.

Looking forward to the new systems.

I'm also intersted in seeing how it all works together. Well, beta testing time is near. And after that we can decide if the new system, or part of it, will also fit for CE.

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I think CE could definately benefit from these new systems however before we make any decisions on that, I think Malkav is right that we should beta test them to make sure they are balanced and fun. They definately add an element of challenge and realism to Bloodlines that make the game harder overall. There's alot more to think about now before spending your experience. I would think these new systems would frustrate new players that haven't explored all possibilities of the game, and who don't know the games nuts n bolts yet.

Something to consider, who do we market CE to? Newer players or more experienced players? Obviously TFN is meant for those who have already beaten Bloodlines (Vanilla or CE) a time or two already.

Well, I think, all players should play it with only te base patch (or perhaps the plus) at least once, before trying any mod.
CE already changes so much with the bloodtimer, the new disciplines, and the college. Hm, it's not a new game, but a very different feeling.
So, if it turns out to be a good working, balanced system, I'm all for including it.

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That's very true Malkav, everyone should beat Wesp's patched version first before tackling either CE or TFN. It will definatley take a crap load of effort and time getting these new systems ported over from TFN back to CE, especially after the full Citizen Seduction System and all of the Dialogue changes going into this. Maps have been edited as well as well as python files. Getting the dialogue files put back to CE would be hell, LOL.

Hell is our fate anyway, so why bother? We are the damned and the fallen.
Zer0, you should know, I have python for breakfast, maps for lunch, and dialogues for dinner.

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Childe of Malkav wrote:

Hell is our fate anyway, so why bother? We are the damned and the fallen.
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Now your falling for that Society of Leopold propaganda! "All vampires (and other supernaturals) are demons from hell, damned to the lake of fire!" It's a dirty lie, so they can feel self-righteous when they torture and kill some helpless little pooka, whose only crime was to exist. Or some fledgling vampire, who made the mistake of confessing his thirst for animal blood to his parish priest. The Inquisition killed a lot more innocent Jews and pagans than it did vampires, werewolves, and witches. Innocent Catholics too, for that matter.

Kindred are not automatically damned. It's what we do that counts. I never bothered seeking Golconda (vampire redemption) in any game I was in, because it would hamper my ability to kick the asses that need kicking. But I never fell for the Sabbat's claim that 'we're already monsters, so we might as well act like it!' either.

I suppose some Hunters could point to True Faith, and the fact that it affects Kindred, as proof of vampiric damnation. But True Faith will affect some good-hearted little faerie as readily as a black-hearted Baali.

I know I'm ranting, but that 'damned and the fallen' line is about the only part of Jack's dialog that I don't like. It may reflect Kindred opinion, but not mine.

I find it interesting how my Salubri, Greg, points out that Caine was only cursed. Granted, lot harder to stay on the straight and narrow, but I haven't really seen anything that says God cut off all chances for redemption for Caine and his descendents. So, I'll say yes, kindred are fallen, just like humans, but not damned, just handicapped.

I'm reminded of one of my players feeding from someone who then turned and said
"What the hell?! What was that... What did you do?"
The player replied:
"I'm french, it's how we say hello."

Then rolled about 6 10s to bluff it. Somewhere in the South of England World of Darkness there's an emo kid who is eagerly awaiting a trip to france.

8people wrote:

I'm reminded of one of my players feeding from someone who then turned and said
"What the hell?! What was that... What did you do?"
The player replied:
"I'm french, it's how we say hello."

Then rolled about 6 10s to bluff it. Somewhere in the South of England World of Darkness there's an emo kid who is eagerly awaiting a trip to france.

Ha ha ha ha ha! That's hilarious!