Sabbat Encounters

So, we all know that in Bloodlines, our entire reason for being in Santa Monica(aside from the wishes of a Prince), was to blow up a Sabbat owned warehouse. Which, due the game being an rpg, it can't just be as simple as it sounds. Diner assassins, wolf people, explosives - all of it supposedly earning you the ire of the Blackest of Hands. Which seems to only be such through the one time they do recognize what you've done, and when you barge into their hideout sometime later, none of them even mention it.

Anyway, the idea is this - in the spirit of the one occasion, adding more of them to the game. Not so many that it becomes "Oh, YOU guys again!", but just enough so it seems they know it was you, and the whole "No one messes with the Sabbat and lives" line, makes a little more sense. So after the warehouse, you'd occasionally get accosted by a group similar to the first that does so upon going downtown the first time. And not in obvious locations like the main hubs, more like one in the Warrens, and other "out of the way" places.

Now, one or two of these could be made a little more interesting, if they involved a conversation, rather than just having them attack when you get close. More than that, they could mention your clan, no matter the way they find out.

This idea has merit, I like where you're going with this, kind've like attempted assassinations of the character. Having someone do a minor dialogue where they speak your clan, like "We know who you are, Salubri fuck!" or something along those lines could be VERY cool.

Some major reskinning would need to be done to make this truly cool and I would need to figure out how to setup a trigger that automatically starts dialogue before the fight. Major fights without a conversation first just doesn't feel right, it makes you feel like your fighting without reason.

Is this what you had in mind, Maxus?

Good idea. Some fights could be with dialogue, but I can imagine encounters like someplace in the sewers, just hearing "Die, camarilla fuck!" and two !nosferatu jumping out of Obfuscate and attacking.
Anyway, if you do, please make them tougher.

Jad.3 wrote:

Good idea. Some fights could be with dialogue, but I can imagine encounters like someplace in the sewers, just hearing "Die, camarilla fuck!" and two !nosferatu jumping out of Obfuscate and attacking.
Anyway, if you do, please make them tougher.

no don't make them stronger, it's fun to kill them easy and as jack say they are lucky if they know what they are

FallenRaven wrote:

no don't make them stronger, it's fun to kill them easy and as jack say they are lucky if they know what they are

That works for newly made shovelheads. Generally, vampires of sabbat have lower generation. Nevertheless, Black Hand guys ain't cheese.
Also, read about "War Party".

You don't even have to leave bloodlines to know that not all Sabbat are new and weak shovelheads. Just ask Mercurio about the Sabbat...
And for my personal taste, the guys in Hallowbrook are also a bit weak. The only ones who are worth the effort of going there in the first place are the wizard (Don't know if it's a Tremere Antitribu or what), and Andrei himself. All the others are even less trouble than the humans guarding Ming's temple.

For the idea of more Sabbat ambushes. That sounds good, but I don't think the warrens are the right place. There are already Andrei's creatures. And Andrei is the head of the LA Sabbat.

A good place might be in the Hollywood sewers, though. Just when you get there from escorting Ash past the hunters... Or perhaps you run into them on the Dane or in the museum. After all, they are after the sarcophagus as well as the Camarilla.

Zer0, I'm not sure, but I think auto dialogue triggers have to be precached, numbered map objets, so you can't simply add them.

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Zer0Morph wrote:

This idea has merit, I like where you're going with this, kind've like attempted assassinations of the character. Having someone do a minor dialogue where they speak your clan, like "We know who you are, Salubri fuck!" or something along those lines could be VERY cool.

Some major reskinning would need to be done to make this truly cool and I would need to figure out how to setup a trigger that automatically starts dialogue before the fight. Major fights without a conversation first just doesn't feel right, it makes you feel like your fighting without reason.

Is this what you had in mind, Maxus?

Basically. I wasn't thinking about using different models, though that would be a little better than using the standard two models(i.e the two you see before Nines shows up). Even better would be to use the "Lasombra" female model, though I'd imagine that would call for their clan discipline, which likely isn't possible.

You could model them similar to the Calo Nord, or Bandon encounters in KotOR - though in this case, you don't have much of a warning of when they are going to show up to try and kill you - unless you take that first encounter with them as a serious warning.

Jad.3 wrote:

Good idea. Some fights could be with dialogue, but I can imagine encounters like someplace in the sewers, just hearing "Die, camarilla fuck!" and two !nosferatu jumping out of Obfuscate and attacking.
Anyway, if you do, please make them tougher.

I wouldn't make them Nosferatu, since technically they are still part of the Camarilla. That, and they are supposed to be tied up with the Tzimisce creations(and there is the fact that Gary isn't eliminating the problem for a reason - why would he order a Nosferatu to kill you, when it could be for nothing? I.e, they get killed by the Tzimisce creatures before they even find you).

Maxus Corvin wrote:

I wouldn't make them Nosferatu, since technically they are still part of the Camarilla. That, and they are supposed to be tied up with the Tzimisce creations(and there is the fact that Gary isn't eliminating the problem for a reason - why would he order a Nosferatu to kill you, when it could be for nothing? I.e, they get killed by the Tzimisce creatures before they even find you).

I don't get you. You know the antitribu?

Jad.3 wrote:

Maxus Corvin wrote:

I wouldn't make them Nosferatu, since technically they are still part of the Camarilla. That, and they are supposed to be tied up with the Tzimisce creations(and there is the fact that Gary isn't eliminating the problem for a reason - why would he order a Nosferatu to kill you, when it could be for nothing? I.e, they get killed by the Tzimisce creatures before they even find you).

I don't get you. You know the antitribu?

Ah. If they were of the antitribu sort, then it makes sense.

Certainly there are Nosferatu antitribu, but most players, on seing a Nosferatu attacking them would think: What have I done to piss off Gary that much. And if the character hasn't Auspex activated when a Nossie tries to kill him, he most probably wouldn't even know about it until his throat is cut. And then it's a bit late to worry

For Lasombra, the only chance to do it woud be the version used in Hallowbrook. Some predefined "shadows" where they can teleport on a random basis. It doesn't work well there, so it would probably be even worse someplace else.

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What if they apprecieted your efforts and after calming down after the warehouse tried to recriut you instead? Or invite you for an interview for an interesting job offer (i.e. not shovelhead). That could be a setup or not? Sebastian use you as a doormat, Max make you be his pawn... From IC point of view other offers could be worth considering. Of course that should be late in the game, othervise it would be a gamebreaker. Maybe after Griffith Park? Blood Hunt could make you seek other options, and Jack doesn't have to get to you first. Guy who killed a Sabbat bishop would be a morsel to recruit. Not only to strenghten the Sword of Caine, but to weaken the Cam. Two birds with one stone.

Childe of Malkav wrote:

Certainly there are Nosferatu antitribu, but most players, on seing a Nosferatu attacking them would think: What have I done to piss off Gary that much. ...

That only makes sense, if you underestimate the Bloodlines players

Feral wrote:

What if they apprecieted your efforts and after calming down after the warehouse tried to recriut you instead? Or invite you for an interview for an interesting job offer (i.e. not shovelhead). That could be a setup or not? Sebastian use you as a doormat, Max make you be his pawn... From IC point of view other offers could be worth considering. Of course that should be late in the game, othervise it would be a gamebreaker. Maybe after Griffith Park? Blood Hunt could make you seek other options, and Jack doesn't have to get to you first. Guy who killed a Sabbat bishop would be a morsel to recruit. Not only to strenghten the Sword of Caine, but to weaken the Cam. Two birds with one stone.

1) Awesome idea. Helluva work. Not gonna happen.
2) Good conversation starter for a setup.

Sabbat would rather send Panders and basic canon flesh than sending a true Antitribu (those have survived long enough not to be sent on suicide missions)

Claudia wrote:

Sabbat would rather send Panders and basic canon flesh than sending a true Antitribu (those have survived long enough not to be sent on suicide missions)

Very true. They would send the cannon fodder after you, at least at first. If you survived that, they might take you more seriously.

Anything that ends up with me being attacked by large groups of scary people as a consequence for something I did or am has my seal of approval. I commend your bravery in asking the lord to send packs of angry psychotic vampires to assault you!


-Foxi

You guys had forgot another Sabbat presence in the game... or, more correct, a spawn of the Sabbat.

Did you remember Killer? Clues in the game identify him as a City Gangrel (or a Caitiff with Obscuration and Protean...).

Anthony wrote:

You guys had forgot another Sabbat presence in the game... or, more correct, a spawn of the Sabbat.

Did you remember Killer? Clues in the game identify him as a City Gangrel (or a Caitiff with Obscuration and Protean...).

What in the blue hell are you talking about

The serial killer is a city gangrel yes but that doesn't mean he is Sabbat ! (plus I don't remember him using obfuscate, but again I never fought him so who knows !)
But why do you speak about us having forgotten Sabbat encounters exactly ? Oo I mean what is the idea ?

The_Killer wrote:

Anthony wrote:

You guys had forgot another Sabbat presence in the game... or, more correct, a spawn of the Sabbat.

Did you remember Killer? Clues in the game identify him as a City Gangrel (or a Caitiff with Obscuration and Protean...).

I can`t remember. Who are you talking about?
The only Gangrel I can think of now are The Sheriff, Beckett, the serial killer and our frend from Last Round.

Sorry to contradict you, but Sheriff is Nagloper, not Gangrel. That Laibon legacy descended from Tzimisce in ancient times, with Animalism, Auspex, Vicissitude. Bat Form is in fact Vicissitude Chiropteran Marauder, not Protean. He would be a normal bat then. As Chiropteran Marauder is level 6 power, our gorilla friend must be low generation and quite old too.

http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Nagloper

http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Vicissitude

For Claudia: yes, he isn't Sabbat as member of the sect, but as you can read in Gangrel handbook, City Gangrel are found almost all in Sabbat, so he must be of Sabbat origin. I wrote "spawn of a Sabbat" for this reason. So, I must think to a Caitff from the Black Hand (a "cannon fodder", perhaps?). Sure, the origin of this NPC is obscure, but there are clear clues. Secondly, the reference to Obfuscate can be find in the tale of the bum who saw the second murder. However, in my previous post, i referred only to this character.

For Killer: EHM... i'm talking exactly of the Serial killer...

Anthony wrote:

For Claudia: yes, he isn't Sabbat as member of the sect, but as you can read in Gangrel handbook, City Gangrel are found almost all in Sabbat, so he must be of Sabbat origin. I wrote "spawn of a Sabbat" for this reason. So, I must think to a Caitff from the Black Hand (a "cannon fodder", perhaps?). Sure, the origin of this NPC is obscure, but there are clear clues. Secondly, the reference to Obfuscate can be find in the tale of the bum who saw the second murder. However, in my previous post, i referred only to this character.

For Killer: EHM... i'm talking exactly of the Serial killer...

Yes, the serial killer definitely has obfuscate, plus whatever powers he uses when he fights you in the salvage yard.

If city Gangrel are found almost all in Sabbat, then there must be some that are not (hence, the almost). So that doesn't prove whether or not he is of Sabbat origin.

This a complete aside: Am I the only one that sees a problem with the "generation" numbers? "You've got to understand kindred, you've got a 6,000 year old curse running through your veins". For generation 15 to be a "thin-blood", that means that vampires embrace (on average) only once they are 400 years old. Don't you think they'd want to "sire more to carry out their plans" a bit sooner than that? Or even just for some company... I'd think we'd be closer to generation 50 than 15...

Feral wrote:

Sorry to contradict you, but Sheriff is Nagloper, not Gangrel. That Laibon legacy descended from Tzimisce in ancient times, with Animalism, Auspex, Vicissitude. Bat Form is in fact Vicissitude Chiropteran Marauder, not Protean. He would be a normal bat then. As Chiropteran Marauder is level 6 power, our gorilla friend must be low generation and quite old too.

The Sheriff is most likely Nagloper. But with his 'disappear-into-the-shadows-and-pop-out-behind-you' trick, displayed in Venture Tower, he also has Obtenebration (or possibly some Thaumaturgical ritual), which opens the door to other out-of-clan Disciplines. So while I also think he's probably Nagloper, I'm not discounting other clans. He is definitely 7th Generation or less though, if he's using 6-dot Disciplines --> Chiropteran Marauder (6-dot Vicissitude) and Shadow Step (6-dot Obtenebration).

mouser9169 wrote:

This a complete aside: Am I the only one that sees a problem with the "generation" numbers? "You've got to understand kindred, you've got a 6,000 year old curse running through your veins". For generation 15 to be a "thin-blood", that means that vampires embrace (on average) only once they are 400 years old. Don't you think they'd want to "sire more to carry out their plans" a bit sooner than that? Or even just for some company... I'd think we'd be closer to generation 50 than 15...

This is why the 'Time of Thin Blood' theory doesn't hold water. There must have been thin-bloods present in the First City, and the Second City, and Carthage, etc.. Probably just before the Inquisition, as well. Every so often, there is some Kindred catastrophe which thins out the weaker generations, thus solving the inevitable problem of vampire overpopulation... at least for a while, until it builds up again. This 'culling' is probably engineered by Elder Kindred, to preserve the Masquerade. This is undoubtedly what gave rise to the myth about 'Elder Kindred rising to consume their childer'. Which argues that 'Gehenna' isn't the end of the world, merely another part of a cycle. This theory was developed by myself and others, not White Wolf; but it sounds feasible (and keeps your game world from ending).

PGM1961 wrote:

The Sheriff is most likely Nagloper. But with his 'disappear-into-the-shadows-and-pop-out-behind-you' trick, displayed in Venture Tower, he also has Obtenebration (or possibly some Thaumaturgical ritual), which opens the door to other out-of-clan Disciplines. So while I also think he's probably Nagloper, I'm not discounting other clans. He is definitely 7th Generation or less though, if he's using 6-dot Disciplines --> Chiropteran Marauder (6-dot Vicissitude) and Shadow Step (6-dot Obtenebration).

So was he human or a "doped up gorilla" before he was embraced?