stamina increase bloodpool

That's all well and good, and ideally each clan should be balanced against each other, but that is only a means to an end. What's really important is that abilities should be balanced against each other (so that players must make difficult decisions on where to allocate XP and what fighting style to use) and that PCs be balanced against game challenges.

With the new animalism, 50 xp gives you:

A bonus to feeding on rats (free infinite blood without worrying about the masquerade or humanity penalties)
A mass distraction ability (forgetful mind is one of the most powerful 2nd level abilities, and this ability duplicates it - for a clan with obfuscate, no less!)
An instakill
A mass instakill
+5 to three of the most important stats (1 offensive, 2 defensive, and the 2 defensive stack)

Compare that to any other ability in the game and it's a pretty clear winner. It's the a better buff skill and as good or better than most spell skills in the game.

At least that are currently in the game. I am assuming that your goal here is to beef up the disciplines so that you can justify draining more blood for them even under the new craving rules, as well as making them more powerful since some of the player's XP that would previously have gone to disciplines is now likely to go to blood buff and blood heal. (In other words, a high level PC will likely be less durable than currently if he chooses to max out a discipline. PCs are more likely to approach the endgame with 3 or 4 in five disciplines instead of 5 in two and 4 in one.) So animalism may still be balanced against other disciplines, and frenzy at-will may still be balanced since PCs will have to sacrifice so much to get it. You're the only one who can make that call since you're the only one who has seen the mod.

However my other concern is conceptual. Animalism is mostly a casting ability. It's the only casting ability for nos and gangrel. Now it is a buff ability on two tiers and one of those tiers actually duplicates a nos ability - meaning it actually costs them an incredibly useful spell and gives them nothing in return.

lofgren wrote:

That's all well and good, and ideally each clan should be balanced against each other, but that is only a means to an end. What's really important is that abilities should be balanced against each other (so that players must make difficult decisions on where to allocate XP and what fighting style to use) and that PCs be balanced against game challenges.

With the new animalism, 50 xp gives you:

A bonus to feeding on rats (free infinite blood without worrying about the masquerade or humanity penalties)
A mass distraction ability (forgetful mind is one of the most powerful 2nd level abilities, and this ability duplicates it - for a clan with obfuscate, no less!)
An instakill
A mass instakill
+5 to three of the most important stats (1 offensive, 2 defensive, and the 2 defensive stack)

Compare that to any other ability in the game and it's a pretty clear winner. It's the a better buff skill and as good or better than most spell skills in the game.

At least that are currently in the game. I am assuming that your goal here is to beef up the disciplines so that you can justify draining more blood for them even under the new craving rules, as well as making them more powerful since some of the player's XP that would previously have gone to disciplines is now likely to go to blood buff and blood heal. (In other words, a high level PC will likely be less durable than currently if he chooses to max out a discipline. PCs are more likely to approach the endgame with 3 or 4 in five disciplines instead of 5 in two and 4 in one.) So animalism may still be balanced against other disciplines, and frenzy at-will may still be balanced since PCs will have to sacrifice so much to get it. You're the only one who can make that call since you're the only one who has seen the mod.

However my other concern is conceptual. Animalism is mostly a casting ability. It's the only casting ability for nos and gangrel. Now it is a buff ability on two tiers and one of those tiers actually duplicates a nos ability - meaning it actually costs them an incredibly useful spell and gives them nothing in return.

Hold on everyone, I'll take this comment! LOL

Let me set the record straight on some of the Animalism disciplines because I think you're thinking they are different from what they actually are.

1. The Bonus to feeding on rats is a +3 bonus (Same as the original Nosferatu ability), I originally wanted a +3 to Gangrel +5 to Nossies but I couldn't have it, I could only go +3 for both. This discipline was essential because Gangrel have a new Clan Weakness (ALL of their social attributes cost a butt load more to raise) so Gangrel really need this or they would have a very hard time getting blood.

2. Tier 2 is not a distraction power, it's a trance style power that lasts alot shorter than Forgetful Mind. Forgetful Mind was bumped up to last 15 seconds instead of 10 and this power I believe lasts only 7-9, just long enough for the Kindred to get away. Not to mention anyone who is around you hear's you howling in the night will report you and you will have a masquerade violation along with a criminal flag on you, so using Song of Serenity can be dangerous in non combat zones. It's not all roses and flowers like Domination is. (Animal Succulence is the ONLY animalism power that doesn't violate the masquerade)

3. Tier 3 and 4 are far from instakills, especially tier 3. You would need 3-4 applications of Tier 3 to kill someone, Tier 4 has a 40% chance to kill non-supernaturals, supernaturals only take about 10-20% dmg per application of Tier 4. They aren't as powerful as you think.

4. Free the Beast Within IS indeed powerful, as it should be it's Tier 5. Compare that to Tier 5 Dominate (Still the Mortal Flesh) or Tier 5 Fortitude, Presence, Obfuscate, it's NOT overpowered believe me, it's dead on.

I understand your concerns but I can see the "BIG" picture and I really feel it's balanced. After you the public plays through it a few times if we feel anything is out of whack we can simply change it, CE isn't over after 1.2 is released. I'm taking a break yes, but only for creating new content for awhile, I'll still be here for support and bug fixes, game balance issues, etc.....

It's common for games to go through a process before everything gets permanently nailed down, I'm sure CE will go through a few more stages before we see it's true splendor!

Fair enough, and it certainly sounds like you are making some major changes.

However, I was comparing the ability more to fortitude or potence, or even presence. These abilities are comparable in terms of the amount of buffing they give you, but animalism gives you a lot more in addition. I'm content to trust you on the balance issue. As I said (and as you have made clear), this is just a part of a whole, and I'm stuck comparing it to ce 1.1 which is practically a different game.

It still leaves nos and gangrel without a tier 5 spell. I don't know if that will matter to other people, but I will miss it. Of course I will also miss feeding from a distance, but I concede that it makes a lot more sense for that ability to be reserved for tremere.

lofgren wrote:

Fair enough, and it certainly sounds like you are making some major changes.

However, I was comparing the ability more to fortitude or potence, or even presence. These abilities are comparable in terms of the amount of buffing they give you, but animalism gives you a lot more in addition. I'm content to trust you on the balance issue. As I said (and as you have made clear), this is just a part of a whole, and I'm stuck comparing it to ce 1.1 which is practically a different game.

It still leaves nos and gangrel without a tier 5 spell. I don't know if that will matter to other people, but I will miss it. Of course I will also miss feeding from a distance, but I concede that it makes a lot more sense for that ability to be reserved for tremere.

Hehe, trade feeding from a distance for sewer rat diving lol. All I know is if I were Gangrel in the Warrens, I'd take Animal Succulence over Bats Communion any day of the week, those rats are set to automatically respawn so it's pretty much infinite blood for Gangrel and Nossies.

I traded 1 Tier 5 power for a Tier 3 and 4 instead, together they pack quite the punch. Let's just play through and see, it's always hard to be dead on during developement but I did the best I could. I plan on playing a Nossie for my first run with CE 1.2 so I can at least let you know how that side fairs.

I'm not trying to be hypercritical, even if that is how it is coming across. Just trying to express some honest concerns.

lofgren wrote:

I'm not trying to be hypercritical, even if that is how it is coming across. Just trying to express some honest concerns.

Aww it's cool Lofgren, your my conscience so I don't stray to far away from the balance of things. You make me think twice which is always a good thing!