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 Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"

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Meowolf
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Fri May 25, 2012 9:01 am

instakill = absorb health [amount] and then just throw there the max amount of health of generic creature which will be met by player on current level. I worked with a guy on such spell mechanics, though he made it for Oblivion.
Bethesda's works usually don't love scripted effects, and if a body killed by script will be lying around when you try to save - whooops crash is here.

I don't know if Skyrim is similar to Oblivion, but if it is, then animations for Blood Boil could be taken from modification "Deadly Combat", which in some situations allowed a player who casted a firebolt to burn target alive. Yep, it falls on knees and turns in a burning corpse, then falls to ground and turns into a guy who smokes from all places he could =)

As I recall, Cauldron of Blood maybe done by connecting Firebolt and aoe Fire Damage, which results in BOOM and splashes =) needs testing though
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Fri May 25, 2012 9:56 am

As previously stated I prefer Masquerade over Requiem myself.
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Fri May 25, 2012 10:14 am

Masquerade for me too.
Also, I'm LOVING the ideas for the mod you guys are throwing out! I love you
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Fri May 25, 2012 10:16 am

Quite! What a Face
I hope that this will happen and look forward to see what the end result will be Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Fri May 25, 2012 10:24 am

If anybody's interested, I've recently started to play around with Blender and can make and rig some basic models. Very Happy I'll gladly lend a hand!
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Fri May 25, 2012 1:16 pm

Meowolf wrote:
instakill = absorb health [amount] and then just throw there the max amount of health of generic creature which will be met by player on current level. I worked with a guy on such spell mechanics, though he made it for Oblivion.
Bethesda's works usually don't love scripted effects, and if a body killed by script will be lying around when you try to save - whooops crash is here.

You mean Drain Health, not Absorb. Wink And yes, I thought of that myself later. Skyrim doesn't have any Drain Health effects by default, but I think you can create one if you make damage and then mark the "recover" checkbox. If that sounded like technical mumbo jumbo ... well, that's because it actually is technical mumbo jumbo. Razz

Quote :
I don't know if Skyrim is similar to Oblivion, but if it is, then animations for Blood Boil could be taken from modification "Deadly Combat", which in some situations allowed a player who casted a firebolt to burn target alive. Yep, it falls on knees and turns in a burning corpse, then falls to ground and turns into a guy who smokes from all places he could =)

As I recall, Cauldron of Blood maybe done by connecting Firebolt and aoe Fire Damage, which results in BOOM and splashes =) needs testing though

We'll obviously only use one and I'm leaning towards Cauldron of Blood because it's easier to implement. It's essentially just a fire spell that does massive damage to a single target.

Nachtrae wrote:
If anybody's interested, I've recently started to play around with Blender and can make and rig some basic models. Very Happy I'll gladly lend a hand!

Thanks for the offer, though I'm not sure how much we'll need new models. We can probably implement the systems I have in mind without them, although if you want to make a Cobra Form for the Setites you're welcome to do so. And if you can make some proper szlachta models we might even be able to implement some sort of Vicissitude (you gather ingredients, cast a spell, and get a szlachta).

Now the bad news is that I'll need to stop for a while. I want to finish the mod I'm currently working on before I start a new one. Fortunately I'm already pretty far with that one, the only major things left are implementing an Unarmed skill, rebalancing the Lockpicking perk tree, and writing the readme. Then I'll be able to release and start work on this one. If I don't get distracted I could be done within a week. Of course it is highly likely that I will get distracted, so it'll probably take longer than that. Wink

In the mean time, I have a new question. What do you all think about the idea of using Tamrielic established names for the VtM clans? For example the Tremere would be called Aundae after the mage vampires of Morrowind (who also had an Altmer as clan leader). This would make the mod fit in better with Elder Scrolls lore. We already have to change the history of the vampires to accomodate for being set on Nirn instead of on Earth, so a name change shouldn't be too much of a deal as long as we keep the character of the clans intact.
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Fri May 25, 2012 1:26 pm

Dragatus wrote:

Nachtrae wrote:
If anybody's interested, I've recently started to play around with Blender and can make and rig some basic models. Very Happy I'll gladly lend a hand!

Thanks for the offer, though I'm not sure how much we'll need new models. We can probably implement the systems I have in mind without them, although if you want to make a Cobra Form for the Setites you're welcome to do so. And if you can make some proper szlachta models we might even be able to implement some sort of Vicissitude (you gather ingredients, cast a spell, and get a szlachta).
I'm willing to try my hand at it! Providing Blender can make models that are suported by Skyrim?

Dragatus wrote:

In the mean time, I have a new question. What do you all think about the idea of using Tamrielic established names for the VtM clans? For example the Tremere would be called Aundae after the mage vampires of Morrowind (who also had an Altmer as clan leader). This would make the mod fit in better with Elder Scrolls lore. We already have to change the history of the vampires to accomodate for being set on Nirn instead of on Earth, so a name change shouldn't be too much of a deal as long as we keep the character of the clans intact.
Sounds good to me! Will make the mod more accessible to people who don't know VtM.
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Fri May 25, 2012 1:30 pm

Dragatus wrote:

You mean Drain Health, not Absorb. Wink

Well... in Oblivion we could Drain Health (temporarily gain some Health attribute while our opponent loses it) and Absorb Health (which instantly removes some of the Health pool of enemy, it worked like damage-through-elemental-resistance).
It's a pity BS removed the latter in Skyrim...
I apologize, I can't play Skyrim on my machine, so I'm discussing the matter 'virtually' =)
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Fri May 25, 2012 3:20 pm

No, Absorb was the one where the target got damaged and you got healed. Drain was the one which temporarily lowered health but when the effect ended it would go back to the original value.
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sat May 26, 2012 1:15 am

Yes, properly representing the various disciplines will probably be the most difficult part. However, a stroke of genius struck me today that I can't believe I hadn't thought of before. Instead of having each race become a specific clan upon contracting Sanguinare Vampiris, we make brand new races for each clan, allow complete character customization (in other words, allow every option in the creation menu), and you simply start the game as a vampire of the clan you choose. Obviously, we would want the game to start at night so the player doesn't die from the sun before he even gets to Helgen, but I think this would be very do-able. And by making the clans specific races, we could have race specific dialog ("oh no, not another Malkavian").
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sat May 26, 2012 1:38 am

Voraxith wrote:
However, a stroke of genius struck me today that I can't believe I hadn't thought of before. Instead of having each race become a specific clan upon contracting Sanguinare Vampiris, we make brand new races for each clan, allow complete character customization (in other words, allow every option in the creation menu), and you simply start the game as a vampire of the clan you choose. Obviously, we would want the game to start at night so the player doesn't die from the sun before he even gets to Helgen, but I think this would be very do-able.

That's a very good idea. It's aslo exactly what I already proposed two days ago. Wink

Dragatus wrote:

We could make the player start out as a vampire (and change the intro so it happens during the night) and have each vampiric race represent a different clan.
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sat May 26, 2012 2:46 am

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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sat May 26, 2012 6:01 am

Well, Skyrim is not SO popular and so old enough to generate lawl-things about bugs and gameplay and story... I mean, using these tricks for Malkavian dialogs. And if we ask Childe - he will add tons of dynamite there and flee ^^)
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sat May 26, 2012 8:11 am

I think we'll need to treat Malkavians differently than Bloodlines does. While it is certainly possible to give Malkavian players unique dialogue, it would cause too many compatibility issues and be way too much work. I thought we could make the Malkavian suffer from hallucinations instead. Like a giant ghost chicken that follows you everywhere and constantly makes satirical comments about your quests.

I'm now busy matching Masquerade clans with Tamriels clan's and we'll need to make some adjustments to our race-clan list. Speifically I think Dunmer should be Assamites (the Berne clan of Morrowind was stealthy and fast) and I'm considering Redguards as Followers of Set.

Quote :
Sep, The Snake

Yokudan version of Lorkhan. Sep is born when Tall Papa creates someone to help him regulate the spirit trade. Sep, though, is driven crazy by the hunger of Satakal, and he convinces some of the gods to help him make an easier alternative to the Walkabout. This, of course, is the world as we know it, and the spirits who followed Sep become trapped here, to live out their lives as mortals. Sep is punished by Tall Papa for his transgressions, but his hunger lives on as a void in the stars, a 'non-space' that tries to upset mortal entry into the Far Shores

Here's my current list.

Argonian -
Altmer - Tremere - Aundae
Bosmer - Gangrel - Keerilth
Breton - Toreador - Montalion
Dunmer - Assamite - Berne
Imperial - Ventrue - Imperials
Khajiit - Malkavian - Sheggorathi
Nord - Brujah - Volikhar
Orc - Caitiff - Quarra
Redguard - Follower of Seth - Khulari

Not sure what to do with Argonians at this point. Very little is know about their culture so we have plenty of creative freedom. I'd like to make them Nosferatu, but we'd need to give them a make-over for that. I don't want them to be Ravnos because Chimerstry would be a bitch to implement. Giovanni is not impossible, but it's sort of random. We've already discussed Tzimiche and Lasombra.


Details on the clans covered:

Tremere - Aundae: The Aundae are the spellcasting vampires from Morrowind, many of which were Altmer.

Gangrel - Keerlith: The Keerlith are mentioned in Immortal Blood as vampires from Valenwood who can transform into mist.

Toreador - Montalion: The Montalion are a clan from eastern High Rock whose specialty was a Free Movement spell. It's a neutral fit in terms of abilites, but the name sounds right and they fit geographicly.

Assamite - Berne: The Berne were the stealthy vampires of Morrowind, famous for speed and agility. Dunmer are also known for starting the Morag Tong, Tamriel's first guild of assassins.

Ventrue - Imperials: According to Immoirtal Blood the clan name of the vampires of Cyrodiil is lost to history. They'd probably be called after the Empire instead.

Malkavian - Sheggorathi: Sheggorath is what the Khajiits call Sheogorath, the Daedric Prince of Madness.

Brujah - Volikhar: The Volikhar are mentioned as the most powerful clan in Skyrim.

Caitiff - Quarra: Quara would actually make an excellent fit for Brujah because they were the aggressive warriors among Morrowind's vampire clans. However, since the Nord vampires need to be Volikhar this makes a second best fit. Perhaps we can still switch that arround and make Orcs Brujah and Nords Caitiff. An interesting thing to note is that in Daggerfall the special ability of the vampires in the area round Orsinium (called Lyrezi) was invisbility so the Orcs are another contestant for Nosferatu.

Followers of Set - Khulari: The Khulari are vampires from easter Hammerfell whose special was the ability to paralyze opponents. Excellently matches The Eyes of the Serpent (Serpentis 1).
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sat May 26, 2012 9:01 am

I figured out what to do with Argonians. I read up on their lore and apparently the Hist worship Sithis. So Argonians will be Cappadocian and we'll use the Cadaverous Animation path of Mortis for them (basically it's going to be what I wanted to do with Necromancy). For the name I'm thinking Sithii or Sethii.

An important thing we need to figure out now are the clan weaknesses. Most of them translate very poorly from VtM to Skyrim. Ideas?
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sat May 26, 2012 9:14 am

BRAINSTORMING GOOOOOO

The Setites should be easy enough, they burn up in daylight.

Malkavian could also be easy if their hallucinations interfere with combat/social interactions (imaginary people, multiple copies of same person that are uninteractable?)/whatever.

I'm unsure of Ventrue, but if you can somehow restrict their feeding options that'd be it imo.

Gangrel is a tricky one.. Maybe somekind of temporary werewolf buff or something that'll have people attack you?

Brujah, no idea. Maybe let players RP out the weakness of frenzying easier?
Hm.. Or maybe a harder time to learn disciplines/magic/professions/whatever?

Tremere is also a tricky one. Maybe have it take longer for them to advance in "physical" stats like one-handed, armor etc?

I have no idea for Toreador other than somekind of "freeze" mechanic, but I think that might be too restrictive, especially in combat.

Caitiff might have weaker disciplines or something I reckon.

No clue on Assamite.

Cappadocian may have a permanent sickness buff that'll have people react on their appearance and maybe stats, other than that I'm uncertain.
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sat May 26, 2012 9:53 am

For easy reference, this are our clans along with their disciplines.

Aundae (Altmer Tremere) - Auspex, Dominate, Thaumaturgy
Berne (Dunmer Assamites) - Celerity, Obfuscate, Quiteus
Imperii (Imperial Ventrue) - Dominate, Fortitude, Presence
Keerilith (Bosmer Gangrel) - Animalism, Fortitude, Protean
Khulari (Redguard Setites) - Obfuscate, Presence, Serpentis
Montalion (Breton Toreador) - Auspex, Celerity, Presence
Quarra (Orc Caitiff) - Celerity, Fortitude, Potence
Sheggorathi (Khajiit Malkavians) - Auspex, Dementation, Obfuscate
Sithite (Argonian Capapdocians) - Auspex, Fortitude, Mortis
Volikhar (Nord Brujah) - Celerity, Potence, Presence

Trivia:
1) Out of the 14 disciplines, half are unique to a specific clan.
2) There are four very common disciplines that are eac shared by 4 clans: Auspex, Celerity, Fortitude, and Presence.
3) Half the clans have one unique discipline that no other clan has.
4) The Keerilith (Gangrel) have two unique disciplines.
5) Three clans have a semi-unique discipline that they share with only one other clan. These are Imperii (Ventrue), Quarra (Caitiff), and Volikhar (Brujah).
6) The Montalion are the most boring clan since they have 3 of the most common disciplines.


Reasonably straightforward weaknesses: Ventrue, Setite, Caitiff (it cost 20% more exp to improve disciplines), Brujah (we will have some sort of frenzy related mechanic and they'll get a penalty) and Malkavian (easy in concept at least).

Problematic weaknesses (as per p&p VtM rules): Tremere, Assamites, Gangrel, Toreador, Cappadocians.

For Assamites we could use the Vizier weakness as a basis. One way to implement it would be that the player picks one skill which increases faster than normal and all other skills increase slower.

I sort of like the werewolf idea for Gangrel. When you frenzy you turn into a pseudo-werewolf and stay that way until you feed. This is harmful because it means you can't cast spells or use armor. Good idea.

Physical weakness for Tremere is possible. I suppose we'll have to go with that. I'd rather hurt their stats instead of making their skills increase slower. A mage can do just fine with low physical skills, but low Health is harmful to everybody.

Perhaps the Cappadocians could get the Giovanni weakness (feeding causes extra damage to victim).

That leaves us with the Toreador. Keep in mind they need a really interesting weakness to make up for their generic dsiciplines.
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sun May 27, 2012 3:56 am

I got an idea. What if the Volkihar would essentially be Tzimiche, only instead of Vicissitude they had an "ice craft" discipline? The powers would include frost breath, crafting ice golems, and a Frost Atronach style battle form. We could then use Brujah for Orcs and 8 out of the 10 clans would have a unique discipline. As far as I can tell the main issue is the clan weakness.

Any thoughts or comments?
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sun May 27, 2012 6:44 am

Tzimisce: The Most Misspelled Clan Ever...

Seriously, why not to go with the Old Clan: Animalism, Auspex, Dominate?
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sun May 27, 2012 8:05 am

Awesome ideas, Dragatus, but I think we're having two very different ideas of application. I wanted to maintain the original VtM nomenclature, and insert the vampire lexicon into Skyrim, whilst striving to maintain a modicum of "lore-friendliness", whereas your idea is to take the innards of VtM and adapt it to pre-existing Tamrielic lore. I'm working on a quick rough-draft of Clan Gangrel right now, so we'll see how it goes.
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sun May 27, 2012 8:21 am

Feral wrote:
Tzimisce: The Most Misspelled Clan Ever...

Seriously, why not to go with the Old Clan: Animalism, Auspex, Dominate?

Well, they ARE easy to misspell. I still feel bad about it, though. Embarassed

That would be another option. However, I would like as many clans as possible to have a unique discipline.


Voraxith wrote:
Awesome ideas, Dragatus, but I think we're having two very different ideas of application. I wanted to maintain the original VtM nomenclature, and insert the vampire lexicon into Skyrim, whilst striving to maintain a modicum of "lore-friendliness", whereas your idea is to take the innards of VtM and adapt it to pre-existing Tamrielic lore. I'm working on a quick rough-draft of Clan Gangrel right now, so we'll see how it goes.

I see. Well, in any case we can create a common core, containing the general systems and disciplines. If I understand you correctly, the main difference is in regard to the clan names so we could have a base mod with VtM nomenclature and then provide an optional patch that makes it lore friendly.
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sun May 27, 2012 8:30 am

That could work. And I'm truly sorry if I offended you; that certainly was not my aim at all. Another thing I'm thinking of doing is not limiting the clans to specific races (i.e., to be a Gangrel, you have to be a Bosmer). I'm playing around in the CK right now to see if it's even possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sun May 27, 2012 12:56 pm

Don't worry, you didn't offend me in any way.

It is certainly possible to make every clan available to every race, it would just be more work. I'm not sure about the details, but I suppose we would have to create a separate vampire disease with separate scripts for each clan.

If we do it that way, I would suggest we go for a significantly smaller list of clans though, at least for the first release. We can later expand the number of clans, one by one. My suggestion for first release is Gangrel (mostly Bosmer), Old Clan Tzimisce (mostly Nords), and Ventrue (mostly Imperials). The backstory could be that the Tzimisce are behind Ulfric's rebellion because they want to kick out the Ventrue, who called in Gangrel troops to help put an end to it.

A neat little side effect is that each clan would have 1 unique discipline (Auspex, Presence, Protean) and then they'd share 1 discipline with each of the other two clans (Animalism, Dominate, Fortitude). So we can simulataneously make each one unique and cut down on the number of disciplines we need to implement. cheers


Now for my thoughts on general vampire mechanics.

General powers and abilities:
- Waterbreathing
- immunity to disease and poison
- 100% weakness to fire
- high Resist Frost (50%? 100%?)
- 50% reduced healing from spells and potions
- Blood Heal power
- no natural health regeneration?
- 50% damage reduction (applied with perk)
- night eye power
- either don't use Stamina or instant Stamina regeneration
- 10 damage per second in the sun
- take damage near altars (5 per second?)
- reduced damage against NPCs equiped with a religious amulet
- Carry Weight bonus (50? 100?)
- Blood Buff for Strength (weapon and uanrmed damage), Dexterity (sneaking, lockpicking, picking pockets), and Stamina (Fortify Health). These can be either weaker constant abilities or long duration powers that yo uactivate with Blood Points


In regard to feeding, feeding on a target needs to cause damage and we need to implement combat feeding. We can copy that other vampire mod for both. Feeding can be done in two ways:
1) Each time you feed you gain 1 blood point and target takes X damage.
2) Whenever you feed you are reset to 10 blood points and target takes X damage for each blood point you gained.


In regard to Humanity, I think we need a new name considering less than half the races in the game are actually human. Wink I thought maybe we could have Monstrosity instead and it would act as the opposite of Humanity. you start at 0 and then it increases when you have fun ... do bad things.

I propose Monstrosity to increase by 1 each time you do one of two things:
- murder an innocent
- drain someone to death

The second one would apply to all targets, innocent or not (and if you drain an innocent you gain two points of Monstrosity). If you drink until they die, you are giving in to the Beast. We also need spending blood points to be a serious thing. If draining bandits and such gave no penalty then players could freely spend bloodponts and just refill on whoever they are fighting.


For Frenzy, we probably can't do a proper frenzy where the player loses control and attacks a nearby person. What we could do is that if your Monstrosity is higher than your Blood Points, your Beast starts to devour you from within and you take 1 damage per second until you bring your Blood Points back up. I'm not really happy with this solutions so if anyone has a better idea, I'm all ears.
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sun May 27, 2012 1:20 pm

Monstrosity could affect the character in that they become more monstrous, like the four stages in vanilla Skyrim.
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PostSubject: Re: Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"   Sun May 27, 2012 3:29 pm

Feral wrote:

Seriously, why not to go with the Old Clan: Animalism, Auspex, Dominate?

Dude. Old Clan sucks. It's like beer without alcohol, coffe without caffeine, sex without orgasm.

I'm feelin philosophically inspired, so let me elaborate on that.

Every clan is different from others, especially in mentality, ideology and behavior.
The Tzimisce are so unique because, in those three areas, they really are alien-esque.
Nearly all of the Tzimisce mentality, ideology and behavior comes form their philosophy, and that comes directly from the clan discipline, Vicissitude.
They desire to transcend this vampiric condition into something greater, and the way to do so is in the understanding of that discipline. Rarely other vampiric power gives that possibility, and those who do, don't give it with the same ease of Vicissitude.

To pick the a small portion of Tzimisce and remove them their vicissitude was one of the dumbest ideas of VtM creators. IT took away the very soul of the clan, the basis of their philosophy, and the fouding stone of their originality. It made them nothing but a little "old ventrue of the east".
That is why i have nothing but the ultmost repulse to this "Old Clan".

It would be like talking about a Gangrel with no animal ties, a sane Malkavian with no insight, a Nosferatu with beauty and no secrets.


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Just for ThePhilospher... "Sweet!"
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