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jrc_burgess
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:40 pm

I have to say, I'm with Claudia on this, though the concept itself is appealing introducing diablerie in game is just not practical without a HUGE story rewrite. I'd be much more interested in introducing a Sabbat ending, maybe even so far as introducing the Lasombra and Tzimisce as playable clans, even if just as antitribu.
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Karavolos
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:08 am

jrc_burgess wrote:
I have to say, I'm with Claudia on this, though the concept itself is appealing introducing diablerie in game is just not practical without a HUGE story rewrite. I'd be much more interested in introducing a Sabbat ending, maybe even so far as introducing the Lasombra and Tzimisce as playable clans, even if just as antitribu.

Not sure if that is possible bearing in mind the restrictions to disciplines.
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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:19 am

Forget about discipline restrictions : there can only be 7 clans.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:58 am

Actually you could make more than 7 playable clans. But any one beyond the 7 original ones must be acceesd via the questions part in the creation menue. For disciplines, that is a real problem. I have once tried to reactivate the original bloodbuff strength, dexterity, and stamina. Didn't work.

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Karavolos
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:28 am

Claudia wrote:
Forget about discipline restrictions : there can only be 7 clans.

/Play Highlander theme
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Feral
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:38 pm

I have got a really retarded question for Claudia about Diablerie.

Assuming that a Nosferatu become Diablerised, with all his/her soul surviving intact into the veins of his/her killer, therby taking said killer from within, would the second body worn by that Nosferatu in his unlife (i. e. that of said killer) also turn ugly?

Because if not, I have an idea about playing a preatty Nossie. Well, second hand Nossie lol!
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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:47 pm

Feral wrote:
I have got a really retarded question for Claudia about Diablerie.

Assuming that a Nosferatu become Diablerised, with all his/her soul surviving intact into the veins of his/her killer, therby taking said killer from within, would the second body worn by that Nosferatu in his unlife (i. e. that of said killer) also turn ugly?

Because if not, I have an idea about playing a preatty Nossie. Well, second hand Nossie lol!

In short : no.
The body is the vampire, not the soul Smile
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Jad.3
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:07 pm

In case the diablerised person takes over, what about disciplines? Does he keep his old ones, or the ones "in" his new body? Or both?
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:05 pm

Highlander? I thought there can only be ONE

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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:19 pm

The new body's disciplines are best kept... But not all knowledge and mental traits.
It's very complicated and most of it isn't even strongly canon.

The problem will be how true the eaten soul is, instead of a derangement of the diablerist who went mad due to the act.
It's.. Complicated.
Give be a couple of days to browse through books
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Jad.3
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:31 pm

No sweat.
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Karavolos
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:38 pm

Childe of Malkav wrote:
Highlander? I thought there can only be ONE

- geek

Not anymore apparently.
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ThePhilosopher
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:24 pm

I've always loved the thought of draining your enemies dry as a vampire. However, at that time i didn't know the implications of it in V:TM. Basically, every camarilla and most of the indepedent clans would hunt you down for it, and it's pretty easy to see due to Auspex. While it is know that Sabbat and Assamite does it, the game Bloodlines basically puts you under the eyes of the camarilla.

So it's impossible for the player character to commit diablerie and stay alive for long after that, even towards endgame. For example, how long do you think a cainite can survive after the princes of near cities hear of a prince-neck-sucker?

If diablerie is to be implemented, it would be so with its own rules, disregarding common VtM lore. For example, you could diablerize someone only if they are a vamp boss, and only after doing a certain quest and obtaining a certain item. The consequences in this case, would not be the same as in the pnp. Basically, we would have diablerie simply for the sake of having one. And i think that would be cool, but many players would not enjoy it.
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YamiRaziel
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:44 pm

... or we can start thinking about diablerie after we make Sabbat story/ending. Cool
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Jad.3
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:11 pm

Aaaaaand here comes the machine that is my brain:
As we all know Wink some princes sometimes let their favourites drain target of a blood hunt, should they bring the target to the court (for example f.ckin' Villon in Paris). So LET THERE BE BLOOD HUNT! Or any other silly hunt-the-enemy-of-state quest. So when you're done, you bring the poor sob in front of LaCroix and if you've been very very good boy, he gives you the opportunity to suck the lick dry. Outcome: At least 2 points of humanity lost (if a point can be lost permanently, irreversibly; else make it 3 I say), lots of XP (LOTS!) and/or new discipline (chosen via dialog window?).

It could be possible to disable the Anarch ending after performing the diablerie; he might have been one of their own, so Anarchs f.ckin hate your guts.

It opens possibilities for more quests: You're too good -obviously- the Prince wants to get rid of you, he sees unhealthy generational difference, that's why he allows it. You find yourself struggling for your body (maybe someone tells you to meet him, like Akeem, tells you you wanted something, you have no idea, introduces you to the beauties of diablerie; you have increased chances of frenzying, you frenzy randomly in the streets,...). The Prince saw it as a two-birds-with-one-stone situation, gets rid of you, weakens the target, just kills him twice (thrice) you know.

I have no idea how to end this quest yet.
Oooof. Sometimes I amaze myself. Cool

EDIT: Could lead to Strauss and his rituals. Lets say, a good boy destroyed Gargoyle? (And then rat it out to Isaac to disable Strauss' ending, who disables the most wins! Very Happy )
Pros: It would be a bittersweet act for players 'cause of the need to bootlick to LaCroix and disabling Anarch ending.
Cons: Voices!
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Karavolos
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:47 pm

Jad.3 wrote:
So when you're done, you bring the poor sob in front of LaCroix and if you've been very very good boy, he gives you the opportunity to suck the lick dry. Outcome: At least 2 points of humanity lost (if a point can be lost permanently, irreversibly; else make it 3 I say), lots of XP (LOTS!) and/or new discipline (chosen via dialog window?).

It could be possible to disable the Anarch ending after performing the diablerie; he might have been one of their own, so Anarchs f.ckin hate your guts.

It opens possibilities for more quests: You're too good -obviously- the Prince wants to get rid of you, he sees unhealthy generational difference, that's why he allows it. You find yourself struggling for your body (maybe someone tells you to meet him, like Akeem, tells you you wanted something, you have no idea, introduces you to the beauties of diablerie; you have increased chances of frenzying, you frenzy randomly in the streets,...). The Prince saw it as a two-birds-with-one-stone situation, gets rid of you, weakens the target, just kills him twice (thrice) you know.

Pros: It would be a bittersweet act for players 'cause of the need to bootlick to LaCroix and disabling Anarch ending.
Cons: Voices!

I really like how this played out in your head, while I'm not a lore-junkie, it sounds reasonable to me to have Lacriox allow you to commit Diablerie to get a(nother) reason to get rid of you.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:39 pm

Yep, and you set one foot into Hollywood after diablerizing someone -even with LaCroix' o.k.- you'll end up in a vacuum cleaner faster'n you can say oops Twisted Evil
And if it really was one of Nines' crew, better head to the Santa Monica beach, and have a good sunbath. Or go ask Bach for asylum. He'll certainly have nice sunlit room in one of the monastery towers for you...

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Maxus Corvin
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:32 pm

Seems funny that this seems so hated(in the WOD, at least), when it seems to come up so frequently. Going after a Vampire to kill them is fine(provided you have some reason to do so), but this is apparently going too far. However, it is easy to understand why most would be adverse to it, especially to the point that they would indiscriminately murder a Vampire that even seems to have committed this on another. But is it really every, and any case that would cause such animosity?

Should the Anarchs be adverse to it, then obviously that ending would be out, as would the event happening before Hollywood(and perhaps being unable to complete any quests there). I'd also think that the only thing LaCroix would equate to this, would be getting the Sarophagus, though not before informing you of some unruly member of his 'organization' that he'd like to see brought to justice, and having such a loyal member assist with it, would "bring you great favor, and greatly increase your standing among the Camarilla". Diablerie would be an option once you capture the wayward Kindred, and if you do, perhaps the only ending you could get is the lone wolf(as the Anarchs would obviously not want your help, and the Camarilla know of your diablerie, since LaCroix would likely add that in with the list of things you've done wrong, when he calls the blood hunt on the PC).

Don't know who would say it, but this(or something like it) would probably fit somewhere.
"Doesn't matter why it was done, doesn't matter who, and it certainly doesn't matter what brought it on. It just matters that it was done, and now you are deserving of nothing more than Final Death."
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kyoden
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:12 am

Elders instituted that rule to protect themselves from beeing diablerie targets. So, basicly they wouldn't really care if you would diablerize other same or lower (closer to 13) Generation Vampires, but they have to forbid this too, otherwise people would ask themselves why there is a reason to stick with this rule.
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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:17 am

This is all nice, but you first have to consider surviving the damn thing.
Diablerists are predators among predators. Some princes will even hire one as their scourge but they are not expected to be trusted or to hang around other kindred.
They'd be closer to the sheriff.

Not PC viable.
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Jad.3
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:47 am

Childe of Malkav wrote:
Yep, and you set one foot into Hollywood after diablerizing someone -even with LaCroix' o.k.- you'll end up in a vacuum cleaner faster'n you can say oops Twisted Evil
And if it really was one of Nines' crew, better head to the Santa Monica beach, and have a good sunbath. Or go ask Bach for asylum. He'll certainly have nice sunlit room in one of the monastery towers for you...

- geek
He who wants, looks for options. He who does not, looks for reasons.
I presented an option when, at least in my eyes, is diablerie possible. It doesn't have to be an anarch, it can be a Sabbat agent, it can be bloody Inconnu for all I care.
Now you can take the idea, take away this and add that and make it possible.

It's called being constructive. Of all people, I'd expect you to be.


Claudia wrote:
This is all nice, but you first have to consider surviving the damn thing.
Diablerists are predators among predators. Some princes will even hire one as their scourge but they are not expected to be trusted or to hang around other kindred.
...
Done with the research already? Wink
It could affect the game more, I proposed a permanent damage to the PC and a rather fun aftermath; leaving the player on his own aka with just lone wolf ending, I'm fine with that!
Debate!
Build, bitches!
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TheRedHeadGamer
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:19 pm

Or if you don't want to reconstruct a whole new ending you can just say that the Pc became addicted after his first or how many diablerie's they do and in the end change their dialog so that it's more bloodthirsty and towards opening the sarcophagus so they can eat the *Sleeping elder * Inside.

Also about diablerie, Not everyone know's what black streaks mean, Alot of elders might but neonate/fledgling ? no way, so it is possible to say that the anarchs don't know what they are, the only problem there though would be the elders but then again their all manipulative arse holes and who's to say that they wouldn't use a diablerist as a pawn ?

And like I said earlier the whole black streak thing could just be avoided if the Pc was said to have the hidden diablerie merit.
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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: Re: Diablerie   Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:29 am

TheRedHeadGamer wrote:
Or if you don't want to reconstruct a whole new ending you can just say that the Pc became addicted after his first or how many diablerie's they do and in the end change their dialog so that it's more bloodthirsty and towards opening the sarcophagus so they can eat the *Sleeping elder * Inside.
So they will get a first row view of the fireworks Twisted Evil

Quote :
Also about diablerie, Not everyone know's what black streaks mean, Alot of elders might but neonate/fledgling ? no way, so it is possible to say that the anarchs don't know what they are, the only problem there though would be the elders but then again their all manipulative arse holes and who's to say that they wouldn't use a diablerist as a pawn ?
Hm, Nines and crew possibly wouldn't know. But Jack and Isaak sure as hell will. Jack probably wouldn't care, as it makes his pawn stronger. And for Isaak, the knowledge that the prince uses a diablerist is worth even more than the knowledge of the gargoyles origin.

Quote :
And like I said earlier the whole black streak thing could just be avoided if the Pc was said to have the hidden diablerie merit.
Since the game does not hav a merits/flaws system, I don't think that is a good idea. Such a merit must have some kind of compensation, and therefore be selectable, so the pc doesn't suffer the penalty without using the bonus if the player decides not to play a diablerizer.

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