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 TFN Humanity/Frenzy System

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YamiRaziel
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:04 pm

That system sounds really neat. It's definitely going to add new depth to the game. Amazing job, Zero!
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:18 pm

PGM1961 wrote:
Personally, I think the Sheriff is compensating for some... shortcoming. Smile

He's a nagloper dude, means he has vicissitude, means he can change his..."flesh" Laughing

Also, my bad, but the sheriff weapon in zero screenshot seemed like a cross. Zoo, you better stop using that crazy stuff, is going to kill again you someday, just saying.
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:59 pm

ThePhilosopher wrote:
PGM1961 wrote:
Personally, I think the Sheriff is compensating for some... shortcoming. Smile

He's a nagloper dude, means he has vicissitude, means he can change his..."flesh" Laughing

Also, my bad, but the sheriff weapon in zero screenshot seemed like a cross. Zoo, you better stop using that crazy stuff, is going to kill again you someday, just saying.

Poor, poor, Sheriff. Y'all have no idea how much he wishes he didn't have to wear one and one half pairs of tube socks, but such is life. All melancholy aside, it sure does make him easier to track. He's the only guy I know who leaves boot prints with a two n' some-odd inch thick line between the middle of 'em.
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:30 pm

YamiRaziel wrote:
That system sounds really neat. It's definitely going to add new depth to the game. Amazing job, Zero!

Thanks Yami! I really think this will add some depth to TFN.
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:50 am

The main problem with these kinds of systems is the risk of a death-spiral, i.e. losing humanity makes it more likely that you will frenzy which makes it more likely that you will lose humanity which makes it more likely that you will frenzy which makes it more likely that you will die by losing humanity or frenzying.

On the flip side, having plenty of humanity makes it so that you are basically immune to any ill effects.

This is why I like Claudia's suggestion of making humanity more delicate at higher levels.

But absent that giving low humanity characters a means of inuring themselves from ill effects by keeping their blood level high. That solves the problem of the death spiral by making low humanity simply another resource to balance.

But it leaves the other problem of what gameplay complication is offered by keeping a high humanity. Do PCs miss out on other benefits by keeping humanity high, like items or XP that require unjust killing? These settings discourage letting your humanity get too low, but what discourages keeping your humanity high? Or will TFN simply make keeping humanity high virtually impossible, the way it should be in Vampire games?
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:42 am

lofgren wrote:
The main problem with these kinds of systems is the risk of a death-spiral, i.e. losing humanity makes it more likely that you will frenzy which makes it more likely that you will lose humanity which makes it more likely that you will frenzy which makes it more likely that you will die by losing humanity or frenzying.

On the flip side, having plenty of humanity makes it so that you are basically immune to any ill effects.

This is why I like Claudia's suggestion of making humanity more delicate at higher levels.

But absent that giving low humanity characters a means of inuring themselves from ill effects by keeping their blood level high. That solves the problem of the death spiral by making low humanity simply another resource to balance.

But it leaves the other problem of what gameplay complication is offered by keeping a high humanity. Do PCs miss out on other benefits by keeping humanity high, like items or XP that require unjust killing? These settings discourage letting your humanity get too low, but what discourages keeping your humanity high? Or will TFN simply make keeping humanity high virtually impossible, the way it should be in Vampire games?

These are excellent thoughts on the matter to be honest. Perhaps when having full humanity, you can loose it more easily? Or is that already implemented?
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:06 pm

Lofgren,

First off welcome back, haven't seen you in a long time. Let me address some of your concerns...

1. Death Spiral as you mentioned was solved by allowing the evil character to maintain their state of mind (Frenzy Timer) by having a certain amount of blood or more in their blood pool. Basically as you become more evil, your blood pool will shrink in terms of adding to your Frenzy Timer. Good players won't have to worry as much about their Bloodpool and the frenzy timer from starting because they are more at peace with the Beast, however evil characters will need to kept well fed to keep their state of mind.

2. Making Humanity more delicate at higher levels is something we as a community agreed on I believe. To make this work we have to set the requirements of what constitues a Humanity loss and at what level of current Humanity does that entail. I feel that those with a high Humanity should have an easier time losing it while evil characters don't suffer from the same (Paladin type) restrictions so they wouldn't lose Humanity as easy. For instance, stealing the charity money is something an evil character would do and shouldn't be penalized further for that, while for a good character this is out of their nature and should be penalized. This is how our new system works solving that issue as well.

3. Advantages/Disadvantages of being Good vs. Evil. Another fine point, whats the benefits of being good or being bad? Well in TFN if you lose your Humanity it's an automatic game over, you become the Beast and the Prince and company will behead you. Obviously evil characters hover around this level alot closer making this the disadvantage of being evil. I do feel however that being evil should grant you the benefit of being more powerful, in terms of experience. This hasn't been implemented yet but in cases of "Doing the wrong thing" will mean a chance to earn extra experience. Killing the innocent victim, persuading the killer to continue killing therefore corrupting him, things of this nature should grant extra experience.

Being good however has it's obvious advantages as well. Staying far from the Beast means safety from losing the game. The disadvantage of being good however is that you won't get those opportunities to be a bastard and therefore won't earn that extra experience. As a character you can take the neutral road as well, trying to balance Power vs. Humanity. In TFN I expect much larger swings in Humanity throughout a characters career in the game. As a Baali you start out evil, however I want the option for the character to fight his evil nature and try to become good. On the flipside watching a Salubri get corrupted with power could be an equally exciting character to play, using Obeah for purposes of evil could be alot of fun too.

It's all about options baby!
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:19 am

Humanity has alwayd been a pain in the ass in the pen and paper game. Specially when players try to rationnalize something "wrong" according to their table of levels and sins ("I had to.." means humanity loss, whereas if remorses and stuff, no humanity loss).
A high humanity (8+) character should not even accept blowing up the wherehouse (it'll ruin many people's jobs, it's destroying others propriety...). The mere fact of feeding is quite delicate Wink

The huge problem in Bloodlines is the lack of the Willpower trait.
You can be a complete bastard with low humanity, but be very charismatic and totally able to control yourself against the Beast. Many low humanity NPC do not frenzy.. Check out our pal Jack versus our pal the serial killer. They both have a humanity about 4... But do not act the same (frenzy, impulse and stuff).


Zer0's solution is the best modders can do because of the game engine, and i'm very impressed !
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:45 am

Thanks a ton for the Kudos, Claudia, it means alot.

I really think you guys are going to like how this is setup. Also I plan on putting the numbers table on exactly how this works in some sort of in game players manual, so the players can actually see the exact numbers and calculations going on in the background. It will help them with what's going on behind the scenes, which was one thing I really liked about Neverwinter Nights. Because i played PnP Dungeons and Dragons I knew what was going on behind the scenes and made the game alot more fun, especially for me because I'm a number cruncher at heart, always trying to min/max my characters effectiveness.

I assume we have other players out there like me, and if you aren't like me then you can just sit back and enjoy the game not truly knowing the rules, it's fun either way.
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:02 am

I do mean it, Zer0 Smile
Because your system is a good adaptation of what the "roleplaying pen and paper game" wanted and put into paper (usually in Masquerade we don't throw as much dice as in Dungeons, the charactersheet is almost useless), and also because I know nothing about programming and stuff Wink

I'm just here to try and explain what is the ambiance, what are the means and why do things happen in the WoD. I'm not going to say "hey that guy's using Protean level2" or other stat stuff Smile Yeah I'm the narrative girl, then you guys go for the engine and adapt what is adaptable or turn it around Smile
Sure, I still don't agree on the Gangrel Warform, but that's because I do not think Masquerade (Bloodlines included) should be an epic fighting game like God of War. I do think our PC shouldn't stand a chance against the first Kuei Jin Smile
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:08 am

Zer0Morph wrote:
Lofgren,
3. Advantages/Disadvantages of being Good vs. Evil. Another fine point, whats the benefits of being good or being bad? Well in TFN if you lose your Humanity it's an automatic game over, you become the Beast and the Prince and company will behead you. Obviously evil characters hover around this level alot closer making this the disadvantage of being evil. I do feel however that being evil should grant you the benefit of being more powerful, in terms of experience. This hasn't been implemented yet but in cases of "Doing the wrong thing" will mean a chance to earn extra experience. Killing the innocent victim, persuading the killer to continue killing therefore corrupting him, things of this nature should grant extra experience.

Is it possible to somehow rise the stats for evil chars who are extremely close to the beast? like 2 humanity grants u +1 str +1 dex +1 brawl/melee?
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:10 am

Shabutaro wrote:


Is it possible to somehow rise the stats for evil chars who are extremely close to the beast? like 2 humanity grants u +1 str +1 dex +1 brawl/melee?


Well, that's exactly what Frenzy does Smile
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:47 pm

It's pretty much what frenzy is... the beast coming out.
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:10 pm

You couldn't really call frenzy a benefit of low humanity, though. Of the three or four times my PC has frenzied in this game, I think it died very shortly thereafter all but once.

I like the idea of penalizing high humanity by giving lower XP. XP is pretty much the most powerful reward there is. XP can convince people to act against their better judgment. There is nothing like an XP reward for convincing players to put their character into a situation that they would ordinarily feel it is in their best interest to avoid. If you penalize a player's XP for keeping their humanity too high, it means that the player will feel significant pressure to give in to the beast, which is exactly as it should be.

It also means that the player can choose how the beast manifests – a Ventrue might want to put those extra XP into intimidate while a Brujah would choose brawl and a Gangrel would choose Protean (not that these clans will exist anymore, but you get my point).
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:40 am

Claudia wrote:
Shabutaro wrote:


Is it possible to somehow rise the stats for evil chars who are extremely close to the beast? like 2 humanity grants u +1 str +1 dex +1 brawl/melee?


Well, that's exactly what Frenzy does Smile

what i mean is making frenzy stronger and get boni for 2 (maybe 3) or lower humanity.. else low humanity chars just have a biiig disadvantage..
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:23 pm

Shabutaro wrote:
Claudia wrote:
Shabutaro wrote:


Is it possible to somehow rise the stats for evil chars who are extremely close to the beast? like 2 humanity grants u +1 str +1 dex +1 brawl/melee?


Well, that's exactly what Frenzy does Smile

what i mean is making frenzy stronger and get boni for 2 (maybe 3) or lower humanity.. else low humanity chars just have a biiig disadvantage..

They are at a huge disadvantage. At least in the P&P game, because they're very close to losing the grip. And if they lose it, well, it's gone, tough luck, you'll be put down because you're a risk to the Masquerade.
I don't think low humanity should get you anything at all, but since characters with low humanity get more XP already, there's no need to make it any more easier on them. It should be a challenge to keep the beast in check if you've started to think like it - leave it a challenge.
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:25 pm

lofgren wrote:
I like the idea of penalizing high humanity by giving lower XP. XP is pretty much the most powerful reward there is. XP can convince people to act against their better judgment. There is nothing like an XP reward for convincing players to put their character into a situation that they would ordinarily feel it is in their best interest to avoid. If you penalize a player's XP for keeping their humanity too high, it means that the player will feel significant pressure to give in to the beast, which is exactly as it should be.

This is basically what I'm trying to do, lofgren summed it up. I'm not going to penalize Good players with lower XP however, I'm going reward evil characters with extra XP. I feel that evil should equal power, and power is what all evil characters want however they should also always be on the line of going mad because of it. Good characters don't have that power hungry mentality, which keeps them safe from the Beast but alas they aren't quite as powerful as an evil character would be.

Something else I thought of as well. You know Troika and many modders put a cap on just what justifies losing Humanity. What I mean is, if you have a Humanity of 5, most of the time you won't suffer any further penalties unless you do something REALLY bad. Well I want to keep that in the game, let the crime fit the Humanity loss, but on the flipside I also want to make it so you don't GAIN Humanity after a certain level of Humanity either. What I mean is, if you have a Humanity of 8 or 9, only the most righteous of acts will bump you to 9 or 10.

Granting a Holy Salubri with a Humanity of 8 because she gave a bum $5 doesn't seem to warrant an increase to Humanity 9. That should be something a Holy Salubri would do anyways, just like it's not fair to penalize an evil Baali with a Humanity of 4 for stealing charity money, that again is already in line with what they would do.

I feel these Humanity shifts should be judged on current Humanity vs. The Act committed (whether it be a good or evil act, it should work both ways).

This is something that will take alot of time to implement because it involves another visit to each dialogue file individually, and setting the values, but I feel it would be worth it for the players, especially with all the other awesome systems were implementing in TFN.
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:52 pm

I believe this will further increase the roleplaying feeling we get from the game. The task might require a lot of effort but the reward is definitely worthy Smile
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:08 pm

I was thinking on the same line: The higher your humanity, the harder to gain another increase. It surely is worth the effort, but it's not only the dialogues. There are also some map events to consider. For example taking the money out of Hannah's save. Then you'd have to make a distinction between thinking of stealing the charity money, and actually doing it. So it will be a lot of fun but also a lot of work to figure it all out and get it implemented.

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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:01 pm

Good point Malkav, we'll have to consider non-dialogue events too. It IS going to be alot of fun implementing this. I think we should all sit down together and come up with a system of what action consitutes a Humanity violation or Humanity reward. Such as stealing, lying, blackmailing, murder, etc.... and good actions such as warning someone of danger, giving away money, keeping someone alive, etc... and then use that chart to implement the Humanity System.
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:56 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:
Good point Malkav, we'll have to consider non-dialogue events too. It IS going to be alot of fun implementing this. I think we should all sit down together and come up with a system of what action consitutes a Humanity violation or Humanity reward. Such as stealing, lying, blackmailing, murder, etc.... and good actions such as warning someone of danger, giving away money, keeping someone alive, etc... and then use that chart to implement the Humanity System.

Hm... there's the thing though that stealing, lying, blackmailing etc. ARE human treats... Beasts don't do them, only sentient beings do... So stealing or lying makes you a bad person, but it doesn't bring you closer to the Beast, I think. Murder does, however. What I'm thinking is that dominating one's mind should bring Humanity penalty, cos you're playing with the minds of mortals... psychologically, that would definitely bring you apart from your humanity... What do you guys think?
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PostSubject: Re: TFN Humanity/Frenzy System   Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:20 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:
(Revised)

I am proud to announce that today, in addition to this new script, I managed to write a second script so that when your Humanity drops to 0, the game fades out and you get to watch the Sheriff cut off your head and the game is over. I also made LaCroix the one who holds your head down, as a nice little touch! Razz

So what do you guys think of this system? Do you like it as much as I do?!?!?! WEEEEE!!! cheers


I kind of like the idea that when you hit 0 humanity, your character is just permanently frenzied and you get to watch them run around killing people until they're eventually put down (maybe by a number of hunters that immidietly spawn in the area). Just having a thought though, lol
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