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Childe of Malkav
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PostSubject: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:50 am

What do you think about level limits for npc teachers like Beckett in the museum, Romero, and Nines?
Both things do have advantages and disadvantages.

If there is a limit, either you have to wait until you meet the teacher before you improve the ability, or you loose the xp. This forces players to create their characters in a certain way.

If there is no limit, the amount of bonus xp can be huge. And you are also encouraged to create your character in a certain way, so you gain the most of it.

Apossible solution for this problem could be, instead of directly increasing the ability, we do it this way:
The limit will be removed. The character will get 3 xp, and then the ability is leveled using "vstsats buy", so if your current level is more than 2, or you have a history that requires more xp for this ability, you have to provide the missing xp from your experience pool. The problem with this is that you have to keep enough xp in your pool when you go to a place where a teacher is located.

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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:13 am

I guess you can't just lower the price of the next dot by that 3xp?
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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:14 am

My opinion is that there should be no limit, because most of us, long time Bloodlines players, know the limits. So we, players, say "I won't raise my firearms since I'm about to meet Romero", and I hate people who try and optimise their characters. It's not "credible" :-(

So, either the teachers teach you one dot in the abilities concerned, no matter what is your current ability (except from 5), but being teached by fat larry how to haggle when you can manipulate the Prince into giving you more money looks strange...
Or completly throw away the teaching system and use it some other way... :/
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Feral
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:37 pm

I don't really know. I think some caps should apply. But, as Claudia wrote, you end up optimazing your character. Which is not terribly credible from RP perspective. I won't rise this trait because I sense in the air somebody will teach me... Yeah, right. So I'm for removing the caps completely, if there is no other way.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:49 pm

I want VV to raise my Subterfuge by 1 point. Of course, this will require some new voice lines, mostly moaning and heavy breathing... Claudia? Eliza? Want to do some voice work?

lol!

(I don't think it will be the same if I do the voice work...)
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:54 pm

On a serious note, I thought Akeem could teach Subterfuge after telling you about Jyhad.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:16 pm

That would be Occultism (or Scholarship because Occult doesn't exist in Bloodlines). Subterfuge is the arts of lying Wink
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:19 pm

I've read all of the feedback from Childe's post and here's what I have to say about it.

First off, TFN has raised the amount of XP needed to raise disciplines from (Current Level * 5) to (Current Level * 6). This has obviously caused a huge reduction in overall XP available to the character which is exactly what I wanted. I didn't like the idea of the character ending the game being good at everything.

However after I crunched the numbers, I figured out that if the PC wanted to maximize all 5 disciplines, he would do so spending 49 extra XP points, that's a big number (It would've been a flat 50 but you get 1 discipline for free at the beginning).

Then this question cropped up and I did some thinking. I love the cap, allowing a character to raise their "Skill" to 4 as fast as they can just so they can maximize the XP cost of having the teacher give them their 5th for FREE, is a major exploit in my opinion. ME NO LIKEY! Evil or Very Mad

So, I was looking at the cost to raise Abilities and it works like this. 3, 3, 6, 9, 12. What I'm thinking about doing is lowering the first 3 down to a 2 so it's like this 2, 3, 6, 9, 12. If a character wanted to maximize all 12 Abilities, this would save them 12 XP points.

Now take the 49 XP we've taken away because of the disciplines, and re-add the 12 XP back in for the Abilities. So now we have a deficit of 37 XP which still makes the game harder, but not as crazy as before. Not only that, but because XP is so scarce in the beginning of the game, reducing Tier 1 Abilities from 3 to 2 will help out beginning characters big time without off balancing the XP pool.

Now let's talk about the teachers with this new system. I propose that we lower the cap to 1 for all teachers. The only way a character can benefit from a teacher is if they currently have 0 invested in that Ability. This way IF the character can benefit from it, the benefit will never exceed 2 XP which sounds reasonable to me.

Nines - "I can tell you don't know shit about fighting, I can help you."
PC - "Your right, I don't... I have 0 points invested in Brawl."
Nines - "Ok young grasshopper, here's the very bare basics of fighting."
PC - "Wow, I didn't even know the basics, thanks Nines!"
Bonus +1 to Brawl (2 XP points)

Who can exploit this? NOBODY! Who will try to min/max their character to get this benefit? NOBODY! This solves every problem with people not ROLE PLAYING because they want to maximize the benefit of teachers.


You guys likey likey? I do! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:58 pm

Me no likey.

Besides me being a munchkin and an exploiter (hi!), giving back theoretical 12XP after taking away real 50XP won't cut it.
Who would like to raise every discipline to level 5? Nearly everybody (personally I usually go for two and screw the third). Who would maximize all abilities? This is the first time I heard about it. Practically, putting one (cheaper) dot everywhere is worth shit, means nothing; especially with the option to put XP in stats and raise two skills at the same time. And if that person wanted to raise all abilities to useful level, there wouldn't be enough XP for the rest (vanilla or TFN).
Short story: maximizing all abilities won't happen, it's impractical, a fairy tale. I'm guessing about 6XP would be saved.

I like roleplaying, but this is still a PC game. With PC games you always end up doing maths - have you ever played Diablo online? Calculating FPS so you land max possible hits... thats maths. A little exploit here and there is nothing. Besides, I always say the best roleplay is the one you can support with some dots Smile

Remember, the first time you played the game, that was the RolePlaying, exploring... The more and more you play... don't tell me it doesn't cross your mind you could save a little XP. Man, it's the very concept of the skillbooks! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:42 pm

You realize that you've been playing Beta version this whole time with the disciplines costing base 6 right? You never mentioned the jump in XP cost. scratch
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Claudia
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:47 pm

Zer0 ?

Tremere approved, man !!
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:49 pm

Zer0Morph wrote:
You realize that you've been playing Beta version this whole time with the disciplines costing base 6 right? You never mentioned the jump in XP cost. scratch
I do, and I don't like it Smile I think I was over voted. And I mention 50 (49) XP... sorry it that was unclear.
(Remember, Tremere are not trustworthy.)
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:55 pm

Claudia wrote:
Zer0 ?

Tremere approved, man !!

cheers

Jad.3 wrote:
I do, and I don't like it Smile I think I was over voted. And I mention 50 (49) XP... sorry it that was unclear.
(Remember, Tremere are not trustworthy.)

I didn't even realize we had talked about the XP increase, I just figured every liked it, lol. I see why the Tremere likes it, because it forces the player to roleplay more and min/max less. I could see this being a RPGers wet dream and a number crunching AD&D WOW player's nightmare.

Hmmm... scratching head on how to accomodate both parties. Is it even possible? study
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:07 pm

I think it was mentioned.
Ok, let me open the PnP rules... Let's find a good example...

Brawl:
Novice: You were picked on as a kid.
Practiced: You've seen the occasional barroom tussle.
Competent: You've fought regularly and routinely, and generally walked away in better shape than your opponents.
Expert: You could be a serious contender on a boxing circuit.
Master: You can kill three men in four seconds.

When you have four dots, doesn't mean you can't learn anything new.
When Nines says "you don't know shit about fighting" it could mean a lot of thing from a guy who can kill four men in three seconds.
When you can talk the Prince into giving you more money, doesn't mean Fat Larry can't teach you how to haggle on the streets bro.
And when you talk with Beckett about history... fifth dot, sixth dot, seventh dot, yeah man...

(On the adress of RPing, doesn't that Tremere try to do every possible quest? Never occurs to her "well fuck that shit, I don't need that..."?)
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:27 pm

I’ll have to be honest, one of the biggest draws for me to play RPGs is the fact that I’m forced to make difficult decisions. Knowing from the get go that I’ll have to sacrifice something to get something else is what really excites me about these types of game. I have a bit of min/max blood in me too (I played City of Heroes MMO for years) but knowing that I have to lose something to get something else makes my skin boil, which is half the fun. For me it’s more fun to min/max with limited means of XP, trying to find the most deadly combinations possible knowing I must sacrifice.

We may be more alike than we realize, but min/max with limited XP = big time strategy to me, which is what I’m all about.

Thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:31 pm

My primary thought is that it is you, me, Claudia, WHERE THE HELL IS THE REST?!?
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:33 pm

I hardly remember the imperatives about teaching, actually, it depends on what type of character I'm playing, and once in a while I can tell something's off with Know's story, sometimes not. Sometimes I get extra money from the guy next to Mercutio's, sometimes not. Sometimes I finger Nines and his teachings, sometimes I play Anarch... Sure, the RP gets only interesting the first time you play around the game.

For me, Bloodlines would be perfect if it was not possible to get everything, and I'm not talking XP here. My wet dream is to have the choice either to get the Gargoyle to join Isaac, and Strauss knows about it and closes the Chantry (and tries to have me killed), or destroying it and "nobody gets it". I'd love to have to chose the clothing I'm wearing, because it protects me more, but my dex/my appearance/how fast I run/how easely I feed and how much I can carry is affected by it. Talking the Serial Killer into calming down, but he may begin again later ? Postpone the problem ? I'd love a clothing having only a magic protection against aggravated damage, but if someone shots at me I'm as dead as I should be. Is it +int and +spi, or +sta and +agi ?


It's not about "choices", but "what to leave behind, what door did I close". It's a despair, frustrating world, after all.

If we ever imagine Nines has 5 dots in brawl... He would not teach a fledgling how to brawl if he's already "good" at it. Because it's dangerous to share knowledge (=to share power) with someone who may betray him. Or maybe just after the taxi driver scene, when he's sure you're going for the anarch. And then again, what AFTER ? crap it's a world of possibilities Smile


But that's just my vision of the problem..
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:46 pm

Jad.3 wrote:
WHERE THE HELL IS THE REST?!?

Chewing nails over the board RPG. Shocked

BTT, I consider myself a min-maxer like you, Jad. At least in PC games, I always want to rush through - but it's not because I love being OP and having a Mary Sue or what-have-you. It's the same reason I ended up playing RPGs and not ego-shooters in the first place: I want the story of the game. I want to experience it, to go through it like a book, to re-'read' my favorite passages again and again and again. The whole 'bash up zombies'-part is just the icing on the cake.
That's why I min-max my characters in Bloodlines concerning combat and social feats: I want to be able to do stuff, and I want to do it from beginning to end. I don't really care about XP, they're just a means to an end. A quick end, hopefully, because not having them is like I'm stuck in a loading screen. The story doesn't continue, which sucks, pun intended, duh.

Okay, 'nuff said. I'll just go with whatever you choose ... but I'll probably have to result to more cheating to get my way, which probably won't make me all too happy, but I can live with it. scratch

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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:56 pm

4 different people with 4 different outlooks. I I love you you guys!
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:18 am

I'm thinking, how many people out there would, like Eliza, result to cheat because of this, and don't like it?

(Where is the furry Pole, has he no say in this?)
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:18 am

You whistled at me, Master? Laughing

I think that forcing choices is good as a rule. It makes you think where to put those dots and plan accordingly. It makes you roleplay.
That said, I'm stuck with my pacifistic healer trying to kill those 4 thugs. Close quarters are a no. I found shotgun in the sewers (thanks Zer0), so I will try again today. Got very familliar with the loading screens as of late.
I like the planning, but a little more xp would do. Especially that the game forces you to invest in inspection to see the Miriada's key. Unbalanced me a little.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:18 am

Well by lowering the initial cost of all Skills gives back 12 XP. As far as Murietta’s key, you can always pick the lock too. So you can use Inspection OR Lockpicking to get in, and if you have Auspex higher than Tier 2, that would give you a bonus as well.

Some quests may be off limits to the player initially because they don’t have high enough stats to complete it, but as you progress through the game you can always go back and complete them, like Murietta’s apartment.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:21 pm

i like the cheaper abilitys and i don't like the expensiver disciplines
is it possible to make some of the lower tiers (level*5) and the higher tiers (level*6)?
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:12 pm

FallenRaven wrote:
i like the cheaper abilitys and i don't like the expensiver disciplines
is it possible to make some of the lower tiers (level*5) and the higher tiers (level*6)?

Unfortunately I'm not sure, from what I can tell it appears I can only set it to go by multiples. I'll see if I can set them individually.
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PostSubject: Re: NPC teachers   Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:45 am

Zer0Morph wrote:
FallenRaven wrote:
i like the cheaper abilitys and i don't like the expensiver disciplines
is it possible to make some of the lower tiers (level*5) and the higher tiers (level*6)?

Unfortunately I'm not sure, from what I can tell it appears I can only set it to go by multiples. I'll see if I can set them individually.
I believe you can always do it the hard way in the clans section of traitseffects000.txt. Same as the healing speed and bloodheal settings.

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