Let's Talk About Sex*

Okay.  This question is about sex.  Not trying to be funny or crude here, although I'm perfectly capable (and comfortable) with either one.  I may regress into childish humor in future posts, but this will start off serious (for now).  

I just started reading through the V20 rulebook (Vampire: The Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition), even though I downloaded it over a year ago.  I was bored, and mostly wanted to see how they handled combat (what had changed, what was the same, etc.).  I'd read through the Vampire: The Requiem rulebook long ago; but never played the game.

In Vampire: The Masquerade, the rule for sex is that vampires are basically impotent.  Using vitae to mimic human function, they can perform the act of sex, but they derive no pleasure from it.  However, I noticed that the V20 edition (pg. 9), like the Requiem rules, states that while the act of sex is not as intense as the thirst for blood, vampires can have sex, and even enjoy it to some extent.  I guess this was to raise the 'sexy quotient' of vampires to equal certain popular literature and TV/films.  [Note: I'm not talking Twilight; but True Blood, and the Anne Rice books/movies, among others, all portray vampires as very sensual creatures.  Even anime does this (i.e. Hellsing).]

My question for Claudia is this -- How is sex handled in your game?  Is it a strict VtM interpretation, where vampires can't have orgasms and sex is only a ruse for feeding?  Or is the act enjoyable, even though it pales in comparison to the ecstasy of drinking blood?  If it's the latter case, do vampires (specifically males) still need to expend a blood point to perform the act?

Normally I would not really care about this.  I am not a teenaged role-player, who seeks to have RPG sex because he's a virgin in real life.  But from a role-playing standpoint, this would affect how my character reacts to certain people.  If sex is of no interest, your reaction to some attractive Kindred babe would be very different than if you wanted to bend her over the coffin and bang her.

[Another Note: Duncan still wouldn't screw Catherina Giovanni.  Some women are too convinced that they can wrap any man around their finger just by jiggling their tits and being a tease.  These women tend to annoy me, just as they obviously annoy Jean-Pierre Griffin (see 1st night in Elysium).]

* [The subject line refers to this song:]

Depends of what part of "sex" you mean, my good Brujah

I generally agree with Requiem's idea, because I like Requiem's system so much better, but for Masquerade, the key word you need is : the Beast. It's why there is attraction, there is passion. There are no hormones, there is no reproduction instinct, but there is the Beast, and because of it, sexual act exists, at the cost of blood.
But because of the beast, passionate gestures exist which are enjoyed by either or both parties. Kindred can rape perfectly fine too, again, at the cost of blood to get the machinery working.

However, even if Kindred are dead and do not have hormones, their brain is still human. They will still be affected by a nice voice, a smell they like. Attraction can happen (but no boner XD). Some characters are attracted to others in a very "natural" way. They like to caress, tickle their nerves, and enjoy it because it's very pleasurable, tricking their brains into feeling the dopamine. But as you've said, yes, nothing is as enjoyable as the nice rush of blood and the effects it has on the beast, who, to thank you for feeding her, will release you the drug we call "the Kiss"


This is how I see it and how I'm applying it :
The actual pure fornication act itself is just a detail for kindred, a nice cherry but the cake is so much better (especially if it's full of blood XD) ; but kindred can do to each other and to kine the whole thing around it ; touching, using a hand, kissing, biving bites (without the fangs, though of course kindred who bite have a hard time not biting with their fangs ), licking, using accessories, etc. Kindred respond perfectly well to the stimulis of their nerves (they wouldn't be true dead bodies if they were, after all, they do feel pain !).

So yeah, you can go and feel attracted to someone, but it's as much as feeling you have many things in common with someone and "liking" each other in a more friendly way. Charm and appearance do affect kindred, as well as Presence, so they surely respond to "that little something" some very beautiful people do have. Of course, for us humans, this attraction is our reptilian brain saying "this person looks good for the survival of my spicies", and there is part of this in the Beast as well.

Of course, this is a spectrum ; some people, and some kindred, are just too jaded to feel any attraction at all, or at least, they don't show it. It's not proper. For kindred born and raised with MTV, physical contact is just normal
So basically, yes, there is attraction, yes there can be some "wants to touch, lick, kiss, hug, assgrabbing" and else, but anything that is part of a "sexual act" (aka, putting something in someone's else's body) requires blood spent from both parties.
Orgasm happens because it's a nerve response


(I think WW screwed up in VtM for this, oddly ; they were based on Anne Rice but...)

does that help ?

And how would a (full) blood bond affect this? If WW says it's a twisted kind of love, does this include, aside from yearning for a Kindred's blood, a kind of sexual drive aswell? You said it mostly stems from the Beast, so what does a blood bond do to the Beast?

That's where I flip tables. Fucking WW and blood bonds.

I use blood bonds in both ways : the path of loyalty (blood oath) and the path of love and passion. Both work with three drinks over three different nights, and must be renewed every so often ; it tends to fade over time, but most kindred don't know it since their experience with blood bonds are mostly ghouls, and ghouls being fed every month, it automatically renews the bond. For some kindred it takes more time to fade, for other it's quicker, and it all depends on both parties personnalities and shit.

"In Dark Ages: Vampire the blood bond is called the blood oath, and instead of filling the thrall with feelings of love and adoration they filled with a sense of loyalty and obligation for their liege. Thus, its entirely reasonable for the thrall to strongly disagree with or even hate their liege, but they nevertheless feel bound to protect them and their interests."



Whether you're on Revised Blood Bond (aka, love and shit) or Blood Oath, there is still this interest of keeping their secrets, protecting, making sure they're happy... Some will feel the sexual attraction, the regent/domitor is the most marvelous person in the world, but it's not mandatory.

So blood bonds are whatever we need em for now? :-p


<Obligatory childish music posting in relation to the topic in a snarky response>.

It really depends on what the domitor needs and both the thrall and the domitor's personality ; there's unconditional loyalty and "love", but be it attraction or not, i'll go by a case by case. I mean, I really have a hard time imagining all Ventrue wanting to have sex with their sires until Victorian Era... Especially when they embrace or ghoul for political reasons.

Back in the last millennium    in Sunday school, they talked about the difference between Eros (romantic love) and Agape (unconditional love, or 'brotherly love').  English translations of the bible just say 'love', but the Greek originals made the distinction, because 'agape' is the love that Jesus meant when he told people to "Love thy neighbor as thyself."  [Otherwise that line would be kind of creepy, because I'm NOT going to do to my neighbor what I do when I'm alone, watching porn.  Just saying.    ]

So when the blood bond involves two same-sex Kindred, who are not gay, I'm sure they would consider it 'brotherly love.'  Especially those Kindred born in an age where same-sex love was a mortal sin, and punishable by death.  Doesn't mean it didn't happen; just that it was some serious guilt-inducing stuff, perfect for blackmail, etc.

Of course, the Beast can twist brotherly love into something bad... in the Ghouls: Fatal Addiction supplement, it talks about how a ghoul's love for their domitor can become infected with jealousy, obsession, etc.  ("I'll stake him and keep him in the basement, so it will just be the two of us forever and ever...") Pick your ghouls carefully.

Thank you Claudia.  You have clarified things for me.  Still need to spend a Blood Point to get a stiffy, but it's more than just pointless exercise.  Still not as good as a drink of blood, though.

[And no sparkling under any circumstances, but that goes without saying...]

Another reason that vampires use sex and spend that blood point with kine is that sex is a wonderful tool to cover feeding...especially considering the ecstasy the bite is normally(certain flaws aside) supposed to cause.

For male Kindred, you don't need the erection to get the blood. Caresses, hands, preliminaries and all that are enough for masquerading the feeding
Think of it this way : Sex is interesting because you make it interesting, because it's with someone you appreciate, because you spend time doing something fun. And of course you appreciate it because it tickles your nerves, but also because it's something one does with someone else : it's like reading a book, why would anyone do it ?

joemarra052075 wrote:

Another reason that vampires use sex and spend that blood point with kine is that sex is a wonderful tool to cover feeding...especially considering the ecstasy the bite is normally(certain flaws aside) supposed to cause.

Unless you have the 'Blush of Health' merit, you often need to spend a BP to look human anyway.  Another reason dark nightclubs are popular hunting grounds.  The drunk hotties are less likely to notice that you're kind of pale and sickly-looking.

Reminds me of an old joke...

What's the mating call of a sorority girl?
"Omigawd! I'm like, soooo drunk!"

Duncan.Oliver wrote:

joemarra052075 wrote:

Another reason that vampires use sex and spend that blood point with kine is that sex is a wonderful tool to cover feeding...especially considering the ecstasy the bite is normally(certain flaws aside) supposed to cause.

Unless you have the 'Blush of Health' merit, you often need to spend a BP to look human anyway.  Another reason dark nightclubs are popular hunting grounds.  The drunk hotties are less likely to notice that you're kind of pale and sickly-looking.

That is why I tend to give my social characters that merit (Neb has it for instance)

Yeah, about that, I think it's stupid to "so conviniently" have the right merits... Plain power playing as far as I'm concerned :p
PGM, hunting for when you're female is faaaar easier : just bite when you still have your underwear on, PROBLEM SOLVED :p

Claudia wrote:

Yeah, about that, I think it's stupid to "so conviniently" have the right merits... Plain power playing as far as I'm concerned :p
PGM, hunting for when you're female is faaaar easier : just bite when you still have your underwear on, PROBLEM SOLVED :p

I'm not power-playing but I do tend to believe that player-characters are the "cream of the crop" when it comes to their respective species, no matter what the game. That being said I can power-game create a combat monster vampire who is simple to play fairly easy. I find social characters, no matter how speced out to be a challenge to play, especially as I am weak at that in real life.

It's okay I was just trolling a little for trolling sake.
But yeah the PCs are always the protagonists. Sure some NPCs may have more dots and else, but in the end they're not the ones about which the story is about ^^