Masquerade Violation or Redemption?

Gotta quick question. I'm setting up the Copper quest and the part where you can sell him the Stake, then send him to kill LaCroix, Rodriguez, or the President.

Now obviously sending Copper to go kill the President would be a violation, but what do you guys think about sending him to kill LaCroix or Rodriguez. Should we go violation, redemption, or nothing. Note: You will lose 1 Humanity for any of the choices you make, but hey you still get your $100 bucks!

Rodriguez maybe lose some anarch influence, not sure if it's kept on a scale or not but make it so they're pretty pissed afterwards

LaCroix... well he makes use of you. Unless the Sheriff dusts him off his coat then maybe put him at the tower at the end game? There's a point where LaCroix takes control of a guard to speak to the player, could it be Copper if you send him in?

A guy attacking the president would probably be put down too quickly to really notice anything off about him, I know in the game all vampires go dusty whatever the weather but thin bloods don't usually (hell, fledglings of any generation tend to rot before crumbling at least) Something in the paper perhaps after the blood hunt quests are done?

Sending him ti either LaCroix or Rodriguez should give you Redemption ( one less Thinn Blood ). But the party you send them to should be a bit pissed off with you. Writing new dialogue lines is out of the due to lack of voice actors who could play Jack, Sebastian or Nines convincingly, but there should be some nasty consequences. Not getting a minor quest or an occult item maybe?

I would vote for nothing if lacroix or nines is chosen.. why should there be Redemtion or Violation.. makes no sense..

Hmmm, I would say either redemption or nothing, heavily leaning toward redemption.

Let's put it this way... currently, you lose 1 Humanity for lying to Copper about the unicorn blood and the Holy Stake, and then you lose 1 more Humanity point when you actually sell him the stuff and send him after the 'Head Vampire' (I always say it's LaCroix). And I still do it, just for the amusement value! Hell, I'd be willing to suffer my only Masquerade violation of the game just to keep doing it.

Now, that being said, I don't think it's worth either a violation or a redemption. I don't think even Copper would be stupid enough to go running through the Venture Tower lobby shouting about vampires. No, he'll try to sneak in, or set up an appointment, and they'll nab him. Same for the anarchs.

My only real regret about the whole thing is that LaCroix never asks me about it, so I can deny it. "He did what? No, I don't know anything about it. Some thin blood on the beach did ask me who the 'head vampire' was, and I just told him you were the prince of L.A. I didn't know he was loonytunes."

I just have looked up how it's done in the Wesp patches:
Base patch (and therefore probably also in plain vanilla): nothing at all.
Plus patch: nothing for Nines, humanity loss for the prince, and humanity loss + violation for the president.

In CE 1.4, I handled it this way: If your humanity is 8+, it's humanity loss for suggesting to sell him things. And then, if you actually sell him the stake and send him off, its a masquerade violation for sending him to the president. Humanity loss is independent of where you send him. You lose 1 point, if you didn't lose humanity for the suggestion. If you already lost a point, you only lose a second one, if your humanity is still (or again) at 8+ when you sell the stake.

I really don't think, sending him anywhere should be worth a redemption. Being a thin blood in itself is no threat for the masquerade. So killing thinbloods who haven't proven to be a threat, like Julius did, is no reason for a redemption.

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Childe of Malkav wrote:

In CE 1.4, I handled it this way: If your humanity is 8+, it's humanity loss for suggesting to sell him things. And then, if you actually sell him the stake and send him off, its a masquerade violation for sending him to the president. Humanity loss is independent of where you send him. You lose 1 point, if you didn't lose humanity for the suggestion. If you already lost a point, you only lose a second one, if your humanity is still (or again) at 8+ when you sell the stake.

That explains why I lose 2 points. Still worth it. I never sent him after Nines or the President, though. I have no reason to want Nines dead, and sending him after the president seems like asking for trouble... common sense time. But if he gets lucky and kills LaCroix, I don't have to run his stupid errands, hehe. The little jerk never succeeds, though.

Childe of Malkav wrote:

I really don't think, sending him anywhere should be worth a redemption. Being a thin blood in itself is no threat for the masquerade. So killing thinbloods who haven't proven to be a threat, like Julius did, is no reason for a redemption.

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I agree. Thin blood is not a crime in itself, although some superstitious Kindred might disagree.

As of right now, TFN is setup so that you lose 1 Humanity for selling him the stake period, regardless of current Humanity. If you tell Copper that you can live as a predator and that it will be ok, you gain 1 Humanity regardless of current Humanity. You do not lose Humanity for selling him blood.

Also you get a violation for sending him to kill the President, which makes sense in my opinion. I personally would think that you would get a Redemption for sending him after Nines or LaCroix because then there will be one less thin blood in the world going around asking people how to kill the head Vampire.

Does anyone agree or disagree with this?

I agree.

It would be kinda funny if you had the option to use Persuasion/Demenation/Dominate(probably a high persuasion, at least 5 or more, while either four or five to Dominate/Dementation) to make him think your the head Vampire. This would, of course, make him come after you. Which you could even call him out on it("You idiot! Me?!?!" )with high humanity, or simply offing him("I'd like to see you try...even more I'd like to see you fail"), with low humanity.

Though this might be like accidentally firing a weapon on the beach, which causes them all to attack you - even if you don't hit any of them.

Maxus Corvin wrote:

Though this might be like accidentally firing a weapon on the beach, which causes them all to attack you - even if you don't hit any of them.

Something tells me you've had this 'accident' in the past, and the thin bloods took offense.

Zer0, I don't think causing the death of a thin blood should gain you a Masquerade Redemption, unless he's doing something wrong, like Julius does later. I realize this may seem a bit hypocritical of me, after the glee I expressed earlier at sending him to his death. But killing someone simply because they might endanger the Masquerade is a dangerous precedent. The same argument almost resulted in the PC being killed in the courtroom, at the start. Punishment comes after the crime, not before.

Well the reason I feel it deserves a Redemption is because this guys walking around asking strangers how to cure his vampirism. I mean sure most people are going to just think he's nuts but he seems pretty blatant and public about it, and if nothing more will eventually attract hunters. And I feel sending him to LaCroix or Nines, ultimately to his death, will better ensure the Masquerade.

Basically to me, he's a male version of Patty and someone needs to shut him up about telling people he's a vampire. Just my 2 cents of course.

PGM1961 wrote:

Maxus Corvin wrote:

Though this might be like accidentally firing a weapon on the beach, which causes them all to attack you - even if you don't hit any of them.

Something tells me you've had this 'accident' in the past, and the thin bloods took offense.

And you would be right. The .45 caliber bullet(In the Arsenal Mod), must've wizzed past Rosa's head(meaning no damage floater appeared) and into the water, and then I find every single one of them beating the crap out of me(even Mercuiro, who, If I am not mistaken, OWES ME HIS LIFE!), and then comes that annoying sequence where I am consumed in an ashen pyre.

Well, Copper knows the PC is a vampire, or he wouldn't be asking if you knew the identity of the head vampire. There's no evidence that he asks everybody. Hell, even Knox knew you were a vamp.

Seriously, when I send him after LaCroix, I accept the 2 pt. Humanity hit because I know it's cruel to take such advantage of his gullibility. It's funny in a game, but I'd never do it in real life. But giving any kind of award for sending him off... that's just wrong. He hasn't done anything yet. Any sane Kindred would fight against this, because it's only a short step from here, to some elder deciding that you might be a potential Masquerade breach and having you put to death on a whim. It reeks of abusing the law for your own ends.

In the case of Patty, there's a definite danger, because she obviously won't shut up. If you must, manufacture some excuse... have some NPC tell you Copper's been talking to humans, or something. An email is perfect, because you don't have to worry about voice acting. However, since Julius does the same thing later in the game, that might seem repetive.

If you start giving a Masquerade redemption for telling Copper that LaCroix or Nines are the head vampire, then I'll have to stop selling him the holy stake. I may do so anyway, now that I've thought about the precedent it would be setting. I'll have to just sell him the gum... or (shudder) tell him the truth to begin with.

Well the gum was taken out of TFN, you will only have the choice of selling him Unicorn Blood and/or the Holy Stake. Also I have it so you only take 1 Humanity loss, not 2 anymore.

Also how does Copper know you're a Vampire? I think Patty and Copper are one in the same, neither of them will shut up about vampires and so it deserves a Redemption for killing them... or having them killed (except for the President one).

How does everyone else feel? I guess I could go for just nothing happening for sending Copper to LaCroix or Nines, but the violation needs to remain for the President, that just makes sense.

PGM makes a solid point about Cooper. I don't think Cooper would be asking the PC the vamp questions if he probably didn't already notice that the PC was a kindred. I don't see Cooper asking kine for help on how to kill vampires, so the idea that he poses a masquerade risk with his questions is a bit weak since it's likely that he's only posing them toward other kindred.

I agree with PGM, too. I don't think it makes sense to give the player a Masquerade redemption if there's no imminent threat. The reasoning that the thin blood (whose name I can't remember right now, ehem) might talk to strangers about vampires is not sufficient. After all, he doesn't know anything about the Kindred ... and if you gave a redemption for sending him into death, you'd (following this logic) have to give redemption for killing any of the other thin bloods, too, Zer0. I agree that it's a Masquerade violation if you send the guy after the president, though (he's not that stupid, I presume; he'd surely ask around for allies to get into the White House or wherever he wants to ambush the president. After all, it would be straight suicide to try walking straight in there. Better to alert the media before and then try, right?).

Zer0Morph wrote:

Also how does Copper know you're a Vampire? I think Patty and Copper are one in the same, neither of them will shut up about vampires and so it deserves a Redemption for killing them... or having them killed (except for the President one).

How does everyone else feel? I guess I could go for just nothing happening for sending Copper to LaCroix or Nines, but the violation needs to remain for the President, that just makes sense.

Rosa knows you're a vampire. So does E; when you talk to him, he assumes you're there to run them off. So there's no reason the other two wouldn't know as well. Maybe Rosa told them just before she met you at the stairs. But Patty is an addict... she'll do anything for a fix, so you can't trust her.

I'm all for the violation if you send him after the President. Even if Copper thinks he's a vamp, you know better... you're risking the Masquerade by involving the government. That's the difference between you and Copper. He's ignorant, but the PC doesn't have that excuse.

(sigh) Guess I'll have to stop sending the moron to his death now, after arguing to keep him alive. And I really liked the cash I got from him, too. It's not worth it selling him blood... you make almost no profit.

PGM1961 wrote:

(sigh) Guess I'll have to stop sending the moron to his death now, after arguing to keep him alive. And I really liked the cash I got from him, too. It's not worth it selling him blood... you make almost no profit.

It isn't? I always sold him the blood packs we got for free in the haven.

Yes, but if you want to replace them (which I would, as my emergency supply), there goes a big chunk of what you just gained. That's what I meant by no profit. If you're not going to replace them, then sure, it's all profit.

I've yet to play a non-social character, so the blood dolls have been keeping me going w/o the blood packs.

Ok well then that's what we'll do. A Masquerade violation for sending him to the President but nothing for sending him to LaCroix or Nines. I do want to keep no Humanity loss for selling him blood but -1 Humanity for sending him to his death with the Stake.

Well, mostly playing Malks, I find it amusing to send him off to Washington Even if it's a masquerade violation.

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Childe of Malkav wrote:

Well, mostly playing Malks, I find it amusing to send him off to Washington Even if it's a masquerade violation.

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Sounds like a Malk thing to do.

simison wrote:

I've yet to play a non-social character, so the blood dolls have been keeping me going w/o the blood packs.

I don't use blood packs either, except during the final two boss fights. But I keep them as a backup. I usually rely on pedestrians, although (ahem) I don't really ask them first.

Zer0Morph wrote:

Ok well then that's what we'll do. A Masquerade violation for sending him to the President but nothing for sending him to LaCroix or Nines. I do want to keep no Humanity loss for selling him blood but -1 Humanity for sending him to his death with the Stake.

Sounds perfect.