Dominate and Dementation, what's the difference?

Claudia,
you stated in the rules description topic that Dominate and Dementation basically are the same thing.
Can you please explain this further.
What's common ? What are the main differences? Why are there two disciplines if they basically are the same? Is this just the way you handle it as a storyteller, or is it canon?

-

P.S. I have started thia as a new topic to keep the Dominate/Dementation discussion out of the rules description thread. So, everybody, please continue that discussion here.

Hey !

They are the same because Dementation is just a Dominate +. You can see it in Bloodlines ; for instance, the first power immobilizes a target (laughing or sleeping is just a cosmetic difference).

Here are the basic, Masquerade revised Domination powers :
* Command : Give a simple one-word order that a target must obey
** Mesmerize : By holding a target with your gaze you can implant false thoughts or hypnotic suggestions in a target's mind
*** The Forgetful Mind : Rewrite the memories of a target
**** Conditioning : Over time make a target a slave to your will alone
***** Posession : Transfer your mind into a mortal body and control their actions


Here are the basic, Masquerade revised Dementation powers :

* Passion : Amplify or dull emotions present in the victim, increasing the difficulty of frenzy, Virtue, and other rolls
** The Haunting : Inflict maddening visions upon a victim
*** Eyes of Chaos : Gain insight into the nature of something through seemingly random patterns
**** Voice of Madness : Provoke extreme fear or anger in victims
***** Total Insanity : Give someone five temporary derangements


Both disciplines are about transfering your will to the victim or victims. The first level is looking one person into the eye and affect them in a very direct and short action. In Dementate it's a bit more random as the player doesn't control what exactly is affected, but the character acts according to his madness.


It's exactly like Protean and Serpentis, both are about changing your body

Claudia wrote:

It's exactly like Protean and Serpentis, both are about changing your body

Except doesn't Serpentis also have dominate style effects like charming and gaze attacks? Like eyes of the serpent for instance? I don't think Protean has anything cool like that.

Well try looking into the eyes of a mortal with Red Protean Eyes, I promise he'll creep out and lose it
It's not the main purpuse of the power, but Sethites are more social than gangrels, so the clan "adapted" the discipline to social interactions.. but it's the same features


It's a little "twist" added by newer authors to invent new clans, more special, more unique than the other author qwho left and the new author didn't really like him..
A true Mary Sue problem

Masquerade is a Babel tower, built over the years without a bible (so each author does and breaks everything he wants, which is just.. "wrong" ^^). So then we got some strange stuff going on that should have never existed (like Samuel Haight, wtf was that ?).

Samuel Height was cool as an NPC. If you were drunk enough... Seriously, some stuff they pulled was really retarded... But I love oWoD anyways.

Dementation was originally Malkavian Antitribu discipline - they performed the Great Trick where they twisted the blood of the clan to irrevocably alter their penchent for Domination into the twisted Sabbat Malkavian version - Dementation. Very few Malkavians left in the world can learn Dominate as easily as they once could. Some even 'switched' entirely - all their ability in dominate became dementation - some didn't even notice.

One deals more with command - the other affects the process of perceptions in an individual. Both are about control, they both toy with people - either as a pawn or as a fool

8people wrote:

Dementation was originally Malkavian Antitribu discipline - they performed the Great Trick where they twisted the blood of the clan to irrevocably alter their penchent for Domination into the twisted Sabbat Malkavian version - Dementation. Very few Malkavians left in the world can learn Dominate as easily as they once could. Some even 'switched' entirely - all their ability in dominate became dementation - some didn't even notice.

That's the "RP" explaination they gave, but why did White Wolf invent Dementation ? It's not because the tool is "weirder" that "Malkavian are better now". Malkavian were awesome with just dominate. It's just an author stuff, they wanted to make malkavians "more special", even with the rules and the gaming system (I mean, the Madness Network ? why ? Malkavian didn't need that to be as awesome, fearsome and totally out of control, why give them a reason ? they are just crazy ! that should be more than enough).


It's like why the Tremere Ritual exploted and Assamites can drink vampire vitae again.. There are many reasons (Tremere wasn't himself, Goratrix lost it, Malkavian wanted to lol, Caitiff with special discipline found, used and killed by vizirs, 42..) and each reason is good enough, but each reason was written by one author, and others said "I won't let you guys invent more cool reasons giving more prestige to your favorite clan, so I'll invent a reason even more pulled off, giving more prestige to my favorite clan/character/explanation". And when an author leaves, one new author will want to make something even cooler, better, superman-esque... because he didn't like that author



The oWoD is a a tower built by many many architects at the same time, with no communication and they don't quite know where they want to go, and at some places the clashes are like dividing by 0. It explains all supernatural stuff coming basicly from the bible (you know Americans and their bellybutton..), it says "oh, yes, old russian tale, well it's a branch from Caine anyway, so hurray for judeochristian beleifs". But the oWoD has a soul, a personality, and it's \o/

The nWoD is a inmense box of tools that doesn't try to give explanations, it's all up to the GM about the "real story". All games connect well to each other, it's a well built tower with a scenaristic bible (in each episode of Starsky and Hutch, there is always a car pursuit, a shooting and at least one comic reply). So everyone wanting to write something for the nWoD need to follow this "bible" and everything fits well together


Both are just as great as they can be, if you have a good GM

I actually quite like the OWoD 'cherrypicking' technique, there are so many contradictions and alternatives that the players can't just assume everything, there are definites in the fluff and background but even then the storyteller can twist that round.

Worst player I had was one who bitched constantly that the world hadn't ended as my game was set in modern day 2006 "IT'S NOT THE REAL WoD THEN IS IT? YOU JUST MADE IT UP!"

Man I could have backhanded him several times he pulled shit like that.

I do think it's good too, but it was done with wrong reasons.. sadly :-(

I'm still convinced that the reason for the inconsistent weirdness in the oWoD was that they had all their game books bugged and stole the cool stuff players came up with on their own. Seriously, if you guys were like us, whenever you came up with something on your own, either new Discipline, or a Bloodline, or new explanation/background for something, you found it in a sourcebook or novel within a year of either explaining it or writing it down.

Case in point- my character, who I played for years, was a Ventrue who'd been around since the Crusade era. Eventually we fleshed out his backstory and history, using real-life history to tie him in with the founding of the Templars (as one of the unknown-but-for-a-name founders, Gondemar) and the later Crusades, right up through to the end of the Templars, the Inquisition, and the Reformation. A year and a half later, lo and behold but what should we see in DA Clan Novel Assamite but... a Ventrue Templar named Gondemar in the Fourth Crusade. And it almost exactly fit into what I'd written for mine (at least HIS part of the story- the whole Hugh thing was just weird).

Stop stealing my brain, White Wolf!!