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I could see changing dementation from a targeted ability to an aura, like presence. You start with level 1, which is make one person crazy (hysteria, obviously), and then you go to level 2, which is mass hallucination (which can hopefully be changed to make people react to their hallucinations instead of or as well as simple debuffing), and then at subsequent levels you increase the range, chance that people will act crazy, and severity of the debuff. So it would look like:

Tier 1: Hysteria
Tier 2: Mass Hallucination - small area, 20% chance people will break out laughing, everybody else gets debuffed by -2
Tier 3: Paranoia - large area, 30% chance of running away in fear, everybody else -3
Tier 4: Vision of Death - large area (centered on caster), primary target dies instantly, 40% chance everybody else will start crying uncontrollably, everybody else debuffed by -4
Tier 5: Bedlam - very large area, 25% chance for anybody around you dying instantly, 50% chance they will do something randomly crazy (dance, cry, run away, laugh, whatever animation is available, really), everybody else debuffed by -4

It's sort of a Malkavian version of presence.

Actually, for mass hallucination, could we call the animation used by the current tier 1 animalism ability, but without the ravens? That would be perfect, if people started swatting the air at nothing.

lofgren wrote:

I could see changing dementation from a targeted ability to an aura, like presence. You start with level 1, which is make one person crazy (hysteria, obviously), and then you go to level 2, which is mass hallucination (which can hopefully be changed to make people react to their hallucinations instead of or as well as simple debuffing), and then at subsequent levels you increase the range, chance that people will act crazy, and severity of the debuff. So it would look like:

Tier 1: Hysteria
Tier 2: Mass Hallucination - small area, 20% chance people will break out laughing, everybody else gets debuffed by -2
Tier 3: Paranoia - large area, 30% chance of running away in fear, everybody else -3
Tier 4: Vision of Death - large area (centered on caster), primary target dies instantly, 40% chance everybody else will start crying uncontrollably, everybody else debuffed by -4
Tier 5: Bedlam - very large area, 25% chance for anybody around you dying instantly, 50% chance they will do something randomly crazy (dance, cry, run away, laugh, whatever animation is available, really), everybody else debuffed by -4

It's sort of a Malkavian version of presence.

Sounds good, but a few questions remain:
- Does the player choose the Tier or will it allways work on the highest available level?
- Is it instant or does it have a specified duration?
-If it is an aura, how do you select the target for Hysteria and the primary target for Vision of Death?

It would work like mass hallucination works now, except that tier 4 would have a targeting marker. By aura I just meant that it would extend outwards in a burst from the PC.

Tier 2 is basically the same but better as tier 3 as I described it, which is kind of lame, but there are definitely situations where you would want to be able to choose from amongst the other 3. If we could come up with a way to make 2 and 3 a little bit different that would be cool, but I like the idea of just generally spreading insanity wherever you go.

It will be interesting to spread insanity wherever you go. But I would like it to be more deadlier. Maybe if we put visions into our target's mind he would commit suicide or stuff like that. It's all up to what can and what cannot be done.

How deadly do you want it? Killing 25% of everybody around you instantly at tier 5 is about how powerful it is now. I moved kill target instantly up one tier in my proposal because in addition to killing instantly the power would do other things as well.

If you want more killing options, maybe it could go:

Tier 1: incapacitate 1
Tier 2: incapacitate and debuff burst
Tier 3: kill 1
Tier 4: kill 1, incapacitate and debuff burst
Tier 5: kill, incapacitate, and debuff burst

I believe this is basically what they were going for originally. The idea was that berserk was effectively a "debuff multiple" because the target was meant to do some damage and distract some of your attackers. The only reason it doesn't work out that way is because he takes so damn long to become active again, and as a result never manages to do much damage before he's just dead.

There are only so many ways insanity can kill a person. Frightened to death is already in the game, and suicidal rage is broken.

Say, I was thinking about something, if you do dementation as I outlined above - that is, as an untargeted burst ability - then could you have the script simply check to see if the NPC being affected is an enemy or not, and, if so, only use the berserk effect then? That way respawning characters like prostitutes wouldn't be affected.

YamiRaziel wrote:

It will be interesting to spread insanity wherever you go. But I would like it to be more deadlier. Maybe if we put visions into our target's mind he would commit suicide or stuff like that. It's all up to what can and what cannot be done.

Spreading insanity wherever you go sounds really good, but it should work only on a low level like entrancing some people or make them hysterical. This would also be a good way to make the madness a real disadvantage in the gameplay. Just imagine you want to talk to Venus about her "russin Troubles" and have to return later a few times because she got affected the first times so you couldnt start the conversation

On the other hand, spreading major havoc, and hopefully killing some people in the process, takes an effort even on your twisted malkavian mind. That must be an akt of will and cost blood.

It could work like this:
Wherever you go you spread a little insanity in a small radius, making about 5% of the people standing entranced and another 10% laughing hysterically.

Aktivating dementation would be an instant, allways working on the highest availabe tier:
1 The person next to you (if in range) gets hysterical.
2 larger radius, chance for affecting people goes up
3 The guy next to you drops dead.
4,5 the radius increases, more than one can die, chances for every effect go up.

[quote="Childe of Malkav"]

YamiRaziel wrote:

Wherever you go you spread a little insanity in a small radius, making about 5% of the people standing entranced and another 10% laughing hysterically.

Aktivating dementation would be an instant, allways working on the highest availabe tier:
1 The person next to you (if in range) gets hysterical.
2 larger radius, chance for affecting people goes up
3 The guy next to you drops dead.
4,5 the radius increases, more than one can die, chances for every effect go up.

I have to say I think this is a really, really bad idea.

The worst thing is making it only available at the highest tier. If you're going to make it randomly kill people, then you have to give people the opportunity to not use it. Otherwise it's useless in masquerade areas because you're going to have normals dropping like flies and your humanity will go down the tubes. I want to be able to run through the streets randomly hitting my level 2 dementation power and spreading the madness like Johnny Crazyseed. If I can't select level 2, and now I have level 3 which causes random death and not just silliness, now I can't have as much fun.

The other problem is making it affect the nearest person. Why not just make it targeted like other powers? I don't want to be trying to kill a hunter and have a homeless person come stumbling around a corner behind me. Oops, now your humanity has dropped, you've killed somebody for no reason, and the person you actually wanted to kill only has a percent chance of being affected! That's the opposite of a useful power.

As for randomly causing madness, that's not a bad thought. It could be fun and flavorful. We should be careful, though. "Really freaking annoying" is a very badly designed disadvantage for a character. Other clans have disadvantages to their mechanical stats, which can affect other stats, which can affect gameplay. I can deal with that. Those disadvantages are fun, because they change the approach to the game. I don't know if I can deal with watching the loading bar creep across the screen five or six extra times because a character started laughing or, worse, having a scripted scene break and finding a quest is impossible to complete now. That is not a fun disadvantage. That is just incredibly annoying.

I guess I'm biased though because I still like it one of the two ways I laid it out earlier. With a few slight revisions:

Tier 1: Hysteria
Tier 2: Mass Hallucination - small area, 25% chance people will swat at invisible birds, supernaturals and everybody else get debuffed by -2
Tier 3: Paranoia - large area, 25% chance of running away in fear, everybody else -3
Tier 4: Depressive Episode - large area (centered on caster), primary target dies instantly, 25% chance everybody else will start crying uncontrollably, everybody else debuffed by -3
Tier 5: Bedlam - very large area, 25% chance for anybody around you dying instantly, 50% chance they will do something randomly crazy (dance, cry, run away, laugh, whatever animation is available, really), everybody else debuffed by -3

Also now that I think about it, distracting people without moving them and causing them to flee the area are different enough powers that would each have their time and place, so I don't think tier 3 makes tier 2 obsolete. Used carefully, the first three tiers of this discipline could allow you to corral most of the population of the city into the back alleys.

Edit: Oh, and does anybody else think Malks should get +1 dementation (or some other bonus) when they use the severed arm as a melee weapon? Actually, since there are clan specific items for nosferatu and tremere, it'd be cool if there were the same for all of the clans.

lofgren wrote:

Edit: Oh, and does anybody else think Malks should get +1 dementation (or some other bonus) when they use the severed arm as a melee weapon? Actually, since there are clan specific items for nosferatu and tremere, it'd be cool if there were the same for all of the clans.

A bonus for using the arm seems to be a good idea, but I think +1 dementation is a bit over the top. Making people who see you wielding that arm distracted or afraid and thus less effective in combat would be better.

Childe of Malkav wrote:

lofgren wrote:

Edit: Oh, and does anybody else think Malks should get +1 dementation (or some other bonus) when they use the severed arm as a melee weapon? Actually, since there are clan specific items for nosferatu and tremere, it'd be cool if there were the same for all of the clans.

A bonus for using the arm seems to be a good idea, but I think +1 dementation is a bit over the top. Making people who see you wielding that arm distracted or afraid and thus less effective in combat would be better.

I just don't know what kind of technical abilities area avaialable. The other items increase durations or effectiveness with certain powers. It'd be cool if the arm could do something like that – increase the range of the effect, or the chances that enemies will be distracted, or the debuff effect by another -1. That kind of thing.

Wow I have alot of information and ideas to sort through, and I'm still working on the Blood Doll Seduction thing, lol.

So you started the Dementation overhaul ? That's very good news. Dementation is my most favourite discipline so if you need suggestions or whatever I can do to help you, please ask.

But be careful! Dementation has to remain my most favourite discipline after the overhaul
Just kidding Do whatever you like

Well after overhauling Domination and Animalism, I've learned the extreme limitations on what I can and can't do with Disciplines. I have to be careful not to basically -redo- Dominate, I want their to be an incentive to using Dementation over Domination. The two are so closely similiar in Bloodlines that it's proven difficult to not copy cat with new graphics.

1. I'm trying to get away from Instakill powers, they are overused big time in vanilla bloodlines.
2. I want to try to focus on more of a utilitarian discipline including buffs/debuffs instead of the click boom you die stuff.

I've got some good ideas that I've been working on since Wed night and so far things are going well despite the rockiness. I think I've got Tier 1-4 pretty much worked out, at least the skeleton of how the power is going to work, I haven't even begun to think about graphical/sound stuff yet. Tier 5 I'm still playing with. The problem is making NPCs do stuff without permanetly breaking their AI routines, thats been the hard part.

I'll let you know as I finish the shell of what Dementation is going to be, once I do that then we can start bouncing around ideas.

Maybe you should make a new thread for the dementation overhaul.

I will as soon as I get closer to finishing it.

YamiRaziel wrote:

But be careful! Dementation has to remain my most favourite discipline after the overhaul
Just kidding Do whatever you like

Yep, the game wouldn't be the same if i can't offer this bloody pizza tester his maggots