The Prostitution and Blood Doll System

TCI Members and Fans,

Let’s talk about the Prostitution and Blood Doll System now that it has been completely overhauled in TFN. I really enjoyed how Troika implemented the Prostitutes in Bloodlines, how you would pay for their services and they would follow you into a dark alley where you could feed on them. Unfortunately this system and how they set it up just won't work with the new Haggle System so an overhaul was a must. The biggest change for the Prostitutes is that both Seduction and Haggle both play a part on the price of the Prostitutes services. If you have a Seduction score of 3 or less, your starting cost will be the standard $50 however that base cost drops as you increase your Haggle feat. If you have a Seduction score of 4 or more, your starting cost will become $40 but you can still benefit from having a higher Haggle feat. The nice thing about this system is that you can eventually talk any Prostitute into giving you their services for $5 with a Haggle score of 8 or more, regardless of Seduction and regardless of which hub you are in.

Now let's talk about Prostitute triggers. This was something that always annoyed the hell out of me in the original Bloodlines game. You would pay the hooker the money and she would follow you, then you would take her to a private, secluded, and dark place to find that she would say it wasn't private enough. Then you would trek over to another place and again, she would say it wasn't private enough. In frustration you would try to force feed from her and fail, then she would run away and summon the police. Did that ever happen to you? Because it always happened to me. Well I took care of that! I went through every main hub and setup about 10 extra triggers in logical places where I felt it was "Private" enough to engage in some blood feeding. You won't have to travel far anymore before the hooker tells you it's time to feed.

Now let's talk about the Blood Dolls and the changes from vanilla. First off there are two different types of blood dolls; vanilla ones and the CE made ones. The vanilla ones are the ones that got the major overhaul done so let's talk about them first. I designed the original blood dolls (in the clubs) to respond randomly according to your Seduction score. The higher your Seduction is, the better % chance you will have to seduce them into letting you feed on them. Each blood doll will have 3 lines in which you must succeed in your attempt in order to successfully seduce her. If you pass the first line, then you will be prompted by the second line, and if you pass that, then you will be prompted by the final line. You must pass all 3 of these lines in order to successfully seduce the blood doll. Check out the chart below to see the % chance you have to get to the next line according to your Seduction score.

Vanilla Blood Doll % to Feed Chart
Seduction 1: 20% chance to get to the second line
Seduction 2: 20% chance to get to the second line
Seduction 3: 40% chance to get to the second line
Seduction 4: 40% chance to get to the second line
Seduction 5: 60% chance to get to the second line
Seduction 6: 60% chance to get to the second line
Seduction 7: 80% chance to get to the second line
Seduction 8: 80% chance to get to the second line
Seduction 9: Automatic Success!
Seduction 10: Automatic Success!

Seduction 1: 20% chance to get to the final line
Seduction 2: 20% chance to get to the final line
Seduction 3: 40% chance to get to the final line
Seduction 4: 40% chance to get to the final line
Seduction 5: 60% chance to get to the final line
Seduction 6: 60% chance to get to the final line
Seduction 7: 80% chance to get to the final line
Seduction 8: 80% chance to get to the final line
Seduction 9: Automatic Success!
Seduction 10: Automatic Success!

Seduction 1: 50% chance to succeed
Seduction 2: 50% chance to succeed
Seduction 3: 50% chance to succeed
Seduction 4: 50% chance to succeed
Seduction 5: 50% chance to succeed
Seduction 6: Automatic Success!
Seduction 7: Automatic Success!
Seduction 8: Automatic Success!
Seduction 9: Automatic Success!
Seduction 10: Automatic Success!

The CE made blood dolls will be included in version 1.0, however they have been streamlined just like the vanilla blood dolls in that the Seduction needed is the same regardless of the hub you are in. It now takes a Seduction score of 10 to complete the seduction and feed or a Serpentis rating of 4. Other than that they operate the same as they did in CE 1.2.

Okay, now it's Q&A time!

Q: So all of the prostitutes in all of the hubs have the same pricing? What I mean is the prostitutes in Chinatown don't cost more than the ones in Santa Monica?
A: That's correct, all of the prostitutes function with the same pricing regardless of hub. The only thing that is hub specific is the "remembered" price of the prostitutes meaning if you were in downtown and the last time you were there you paid $35 for their service, then they will still remember you at that price OR if your Haggle score increased since the last time you were there, you can haggle them down to a new lower price and they will remember that price instead.

Q: The triggers never worked in vanilla Bloodlines, you say that you corrected that?
A: Yes, I placed prostitute triggers in all dark and secluded areas of the hubs and in convenient places so you don't have to walk far.

Q: So if I have a Seduction of 5 then I have a 60% chance to pass the first line of dialogue, then another 60% chance to pass the second line of dialogue, then a 50% chance to finally seduce her?
A: Yes, there are 3 lines you must pass and if you fail any of those lines, you must start over.

Q: If I manage to seduce a blood doll, will she remember me the next time I visit?
A: Yes, she will remember you one time so think of it as a free pass the next time you are in the club. When you cash in on that freebie, then the counter resets and you will have to try to seduce her once again.

Q: How many attempts do I get to seduce a blood doll?
A: As many as you like, you can stand there all night trying to seduce a blood doll, they don't mind.

And this concludes the new Prostitution and Blood Doll System for TFN, hope you enjoyed this program.

I must say, I reallly hate this kind of mutiple successes necessary. With a seduction of 5 that wil give you a total 18% chance to seduce the doll. Even if I can try the whole night, that kind of thing really drives me wild.
Well, so be it. Then in TFN it will have to be hunting time for me.

-

Wow, that must have a lot of hours on the cost side. I think I will finally start talking to the hookers
Though with my usual high persuasion/intimidation, low seduction Gangrel, Brujah or Tremere it was hard. Not to mention Nossie. Hope it will be better with Baali, Osebo, Assamite, weel, not really with Samedi Well, on a sidnote, shouldn't going to a hooker cause Humanity loss for the Salubri? Or, should it be OK for them because it is blood willingly given (and paid for)? Just thinking out loud.

What I'm trying to go for here is the need to maximize a certain skill or ability. In most cases having a Seduction of 5 or so was enough to pretty much seduce anyone and I never liked that. All skills and abilities go all the way up to 10 yet it was never needed to go that high before, and now it is. I figure if someone is going to sink alot of XP into a skill or ability to get it into the 9s and 10s then they should be rewarded greatly, for everyone else who didn't, well they should continue having a hard time accomplishing what they want with that lower skill or ability.

And just to let you know, I walked into the Asylum last night with my Ishtarri guy with a Seductino of 4 and seduced the blood doll on the first try. So it is possible to do, even with a Seduction of 1, it's just not something that can be relied upon and that is the point. By making it random based on %, it makes the NPC seem more alive because you never know if the blood dolls are a reliable source of blood, until you try.

I think this is a great idea, especially when you consider that you also have the system where you steadily lose blood over time. I like the idea that if you have low seduction, that you might actually have to think "How long am I going to stand here trying to seduce this girl before it becomes not worth it due to how much blood I've burned in that time?"

I think there should be even more risk to it! I think if you have a low seduce score, there should be a chance of you offending the blood doll enough that she actually attacks you, or calls some guys over to beat your ass for being a creep. It would be pretty funny if she whipped out a tazer and zapped you with it for some agg damage.

So perhaps, in addition to the % chance to get the next line, there is a % chance when you use a line that one of those bad (but hilarious) things happen, which gets lower the more seduce you have.

Now if we could just figure out some way to make those low-social characters so hard up for a feeding, occasionally, that they have to head into a club to try for a blood doll... (maybe random events where the streets are so thick with hunters that it's impossible to feed by hunting the alleyways?).

What hilarious things do you mean? Like she pulls out her pepper spray and you don't sneeze at all?

Well, I'm not opposed to % chances per se. But what I really don't like is a multiple tests sequence. Because with that, anything that isn't near certain success goes rapidly down the drain. I've thrown otherwise good games away for this kind of ability checking system as even a base 60% (=.6) tested thrice leads to .6*.6*.6=.216. So with three checks at 60% you end up with a total success chance of less than 25%. Not for me, man.

-

Well at a Seduction of 6 you automaticall drop the last sequence so I'm sure that helps quite a bit. Sorry you don't like the new system. It's meant to be challenging/almost impossible at earlier parts of the game and easier as you progress in Seduction. For those who don't want to sink XP into Seduction should have a very hard time with Blood Dolls where people who do put valuable XP into Seduction should be rewardly greatly.

Well, after testing I still stand by my previous opinion. Every single xp dropped into seduction is wasted. Even more than in the vanilla game. You need seduction 7 (32 xp) to get a decent chance (64%, and you have to go through three dialog lines to get a result). And then you need another 24 xp to get to 9 for the next upgrade, which is then suddenly guaranteed success.

-

The only problem is... if you want to max out the character's abilities (say, obeah) it costs a lot of XP, if you want to max out at least one form of fighting or defensive ability, again, lots of XP... there is not much in the way of XP left to raise anything else by the time you need to pound on some bosses. It really forces you to play a character that is heavily invested in one path... and with the more difficult combat system you really need to invest in some of the baser qualities, like strength, melee, etc.

Take that with a grain of salt tho', because I am a sucky gamer.

[edit]

I am NOT complaining here, just how it seems to me. The game is challenging and fun.

i give my prostitutes 5 bucks and all done.. and it's more realistic this way.. if u can't properly seduce girls they won't listen to "wanna tune my mandoline" or sth like that System is fine.. Well i am off to occult hunt again.. i can't fkin find them.. grrr

Shabutaro wrote:

i give my prostitutes 5 bucks and all done.. and it's more realistic this way.. if u can't properly seduce girls they won't listen to "wanna tune my mandoline" or sth like that System is fine.. Well i am off to occult hunt again.. i can't fkin find them.. grrr

Yeah, in all honesty I just find those spots where the people walk by, far enough from others, and jump them. That way I spend no money and don't need seduction. But I like some of the seduction lines and miss them.

I agree with Childe of Malkav on this. I see Zer0Morph's point (namely that it's too easy to seduce blood dolls in vanilla), but between "too easy" and "difficult to the point of near unusability," I'll take "too easy."

Seduction is not a game-making or game-breaking skill. Pumping heaps of points into it just to be able to feed without fear of being caught (or spending money) is decidedly unappealing. Now if feeding on pedestrians were more difficult (and prostitutes were more expensive) it would be a more valuable skill.

Perhaps if every NPC dialogue which has an Intimidate and/or Persuade option also had a Seduce option, that would make up for it (you wouldn't be literally seducing them, just influencing them with your charm rather than bullying them or reasoning with them). But then we'd have the problem of Seduction being the catch-all communication skill in addition to the "free food" skill.

And I wonder if the code is working as intended. I failed to seduce the downstairs blood doll in The Asylum and I was never able to do so (I did not count how many times I tried, but it was 5 at a conservative estimate). At no time did I even get the fist line of seduction dialog with her. I also never failed on the upstairs blood doll (again, approximately 5 times), so I wonder if the "reset code" is working as intended.

Did any of this change in 1.2?

Personally, I always thought this system made Seduction LESS important than in the Vanilla game. In vanilla, if your seduction wasn't high enough, you didn't get to feed. Under this system you just keep spamming the dialog buttons until you get through.

No, this stayed the same in 1.2.

You can of course spam as much as you like, but it gets old very quickly and you'll spend more blood standing there trying to get blood and failing, than you will actually getting the blood doll to give you some.

It's up to the player on how long they want to stand there and risk getting hungry.

Zer0Morph wrote:

No, this stayed the same in 1.2.

You can of course spam as much as you like, but it gets old very quickly and you'll spend more blood standing there trying to get blood and failing, than you will actually getting the blood doll to give you some.

It's up to the player on how long they want to stand there and risk getting hungry.

For a simulationist system, what I would do if I could was make your seduction score change how high of a class of victim you can seduce. This would basically change the quality of the blood dolls (how much blood is on them when you feed).

Add a slight esecalating score needed to succeed in each hub 2 for SM, 3 for DT, 4 for HW, 5 for CT. Since the number of dolls in a hub is limited, you'd actually have a system where those without a good seduction score could not reliably feed this way, while rewarding those who max it. Takes the randomness and button spam portion out.

Sezneg wrote:

For a simulationist system, what I would do if I could was make your seduction score change how high of a class of victim you can seduce.  This would basically change the quality of the blood dolls (how much blood is on them when you feed).

Add a slight esecalating score needed to succeed in each hub 2 for SM, 3 for DT, 4 for HW, 5 for CT.  Since the number of dolls in a hub is limited, you'd actually have a system where those without a good seduction score could not reliably feed this way, while rewarding those who max it.  Takes the randomness and button spam portion out.

How would this prevent me from walking out of and back into the map to reset their bloodpool? Zeros method is the only way I can think of to prevent infinite blood without excessive XP expenditure.

Sezneg wrote:

For a simulationist system, what I would do if I could was make your seduction score change how high of a class of victim you can seduce.  This would basically change the quality of the blood dolls (how much blood is on them when you feed).

Add a slight esecalating score needed to succeed in each hub 2 for SM, 3 for DT, 4 for HW, 5 for CT.  Since the number of dolls in a hub is limited, you'd actually have a system where those without a good seduction score could not reliably feed this way, while rewarding those who max it.  Takes the randomness and button spam portion out.

What you're describing is essentially the way blood dolls worked in Vanilla.

You need a higher Seduction score for the chick in Wong Ho's place than you do for the on in Asylum.


As for "infinite blood", once you reach Chinatown, you essentially have it from all the blood dolls walking around the Lotus Blossom, unless Zero changed that - and that's a combat zone

Once you learn the walking patterns of pedestrians and where the 'dark' spots are on the streets you can feed fairly easily no matter where you are. Unless you're blue blood, which makes things a mite harder, but still quite doable.

Will there be male blood dolls? That was always something I missed in the original

I think there are some male blood dolls walking around.

Dragatus wrote:

I think there are some male blood dolls walking around.

In Downtown for sure.