Inspection system and a new Auspex for 1.4

I personally are not really too happy from "leaving" things out only to find with inspection. While I do like the inspection system in general, it just feels too forced here.

And lockpick/hacking doesn't? Even in Vanilla, you had the "get these ranks or don't see this content" spots. The difference here is that Zer0 is adding requirements to old content, so you feel the change, as opposed to creating new content to be a reward.
Unless you are talking about quest items, in which case I have to agree. Those need to be collectible at inspection 0 if you even know they exist. Sparkles can require actual ranks, but not the item itself.

I just remembered: you can't use Auspex for the Bertram's CD as it is in an Elysium.
I actually like the new inspection system, buy I think the quest item should require a low level of inspection to be found

Eliza wrote:

Sorry, couldn't resist.  (As somebody of the generation you complain about, I guess I'm allowed a rebuttal... :p)

You know I don't mean EVERYONE from your generation, just the majority. There's always going to be those who go against the grain... THANK GOODNESS!

Cretino wrote:

By the end of the day, we should make a Final Nights Wikia :p

I don't think something like that could be completed by the end of today, however I do like this idea. The problem is, I've never created a Wiki before and with modding TFN, managing this website, managing ModDB, setting up the new domain over at PV (Yes we got our own space on PV, I just need to set everything up but the space is there), etc... I just don't have time to make a Wiki.

Perhaps 2 loyal and hardworking TCI forum members could step up and create and then administer and be in charge of a Wiki page for CE and TFN. Once CE is done, it should be easy to manage considering nothing else is being changed. We could make you two the TCI Wiki Administrators and change your color on this forum to make you stand apart from everyone else.

Any volunteers?

YamiRaziel wrote:

What did you decide on with the inspection quests, Zer0?

Well, I'm glad I waited before responding because I got to read the posts made after this one. It appears that most of you want to leave Inspection off for Pisha's items and Betram's CD, is that what I'm hearing? While personally I like the idea of Inspection being the "Feat required" to complete these quests, get the XP, and the occult items from Pisha, you guys don't. So, am I hearing a clear NO from the community?

Tell me your thoughts...

There is a commandment somewhere that clearly states that if the characters AND the player can't find something, it doesn't exist.
So, don't hide keys and key items, EVER.

End of the day is somewhere in the far future.

Cretino wrote:

There is a commandment somewhere that clearly states that if the characters AND the player can't find something, it doesn't exist.
So, don't hide keys and key items, EVER.

End of the day is somewhere in the far future.

That must be a commandment from Antitribu because here at TCI, we hide shit all the time! LOL

Somewhere in the far future? That must be Brazilian Time then? Perhaps the Mayan calendar?

Zer0, you know how this community feels towards original Troika content.

I'm not saying I'm against quests that require certain skills, but forcing investigation for Troika quest will feel the same as hiding the quest entirely (if not enough investigation).

How about this - Why not make the quest much easier for players with investigation and super-difficult without? Maybe you can play around with the XP awards as well. Or maybe, players with investigation will be able to find something additional there? Make a little Sherlock Holmes style of investigation and have the exclusive option to complete an entirely new quest created by you?

I don't know I'm just throwing random ideas. It's your decision and I realize that XP and balance are important but... players shouldn't feel forced to pick an option. We don't want cookie-cutter builds in Bloodlines

I understand what you're saying, but how many other quests are dependent on having a certain Feat high enough to complete it? That's like, most of them, how is this different?

Zer0Morph wrote:

I understand what you're saying, but how many other quests are dependent on having a certain Feat high enough to complete it? That's like, most of them, how is this different?

Hm, maybe I'm forgetting them. Can you name some? Are there quests that cannot be completed unless you've got a certain skill at certain level?

YamiRaziel wrote:

Zer0Morph wrote:

I understand what you're saying, but how many other quests are dependent on having a certain Feat high enough to complete it? That's like, most of them, how is this different?

Hm, maybe I'm forgetting them. Can you name some? Are there quests that cannot be completed unless you've got a certain skill at certain level?

1.) Marianne Murietta - You need a Lockpick or Inspection of 5.
2.) Pain of being Mercurio - You need Lockpick 4 (I think) to get into Malcolm's office for the morphine.
3.) Copper - You need Persuasion 3 to sell the blood bags and stake to Copper.
4.) Replanting a Lily - Seduction to get the blood doll from Arizona to go to the Blood Bank.
Note: I made it so you can pay off Vandal instead based on Haggle, and you get Humanity
5.) Blackmail Malcolm - Hacking to read the emails from Paige.
6.) Werewolf Blood - You need all sorts of shit to complete that quest.
7.) Finding Lily - You need lockpicking to get into the backroom, or Persuasion.

Those are 7 in Santa Monica alone, I'm sure there's more, I'll have to think about it. Remember, these are side quests, not the main story. I can see not blocking the main story, that would be garbage, but side quests are optional so we can have a little more fun with them. Just my opinion.

Okay, you've convinced me at least. Just don't make the requirements too damn high, please

Now you only have to convince the rest of the TCI community. Good luck

Zer0Morph wrote:

1.) Marianne Murietta - You need a Lockpick or Inspection of 5.
2.) Pain of being Mercurio - You need Lockpick 4 (I think) to get into Malcolm's office for the morphine.
3.) Copper - You need Persuasion 3 to sell the blood bags and stake to Copper.
4.) Replanting a Lily - Seduction to get the blood doll from Arizona to go to the Blood Bank.
Note: I made it so you can pay off Vandal instead based on Haggle, and you get Humanity
5.) Blackmail Malcolm - Hacking to read the emails from Paige.
6.) Werewolf Blood - You need all sorts of shit to complete that quest.
7.) Finding Lily - You need lockpicking to get into the backroom, or Persuasion.

Those are 7 in Santa Monica alone, I'm sure there's more, I'll have to think about it. Remember, these are side quests, not the main story. I can see not blocking the main story, that would be garbage, but side quests are optional so we can have a little more fun with them. Just my opinion.

Spoiler:

Please, make the requirements proportional to the rewards. If it's easy, you can make many easy quests or little items; if it's hard, it has to be worth.

Quote :

2) Any Morphine will help him, including the one sitting on the abandoned hospital. 0 requirements.

You are correct, however Mercurio leaves after you get to Downtown so you can't heal him anymore and the quest fails, so you have to get the Morphine from Malcolm's office, you have no other options... until... WAIT! Did somebody give Trip some Morphine to sell in TFN 1.4 because the Morphine in Malcolm's office is now hidden?!?!?! NO WAY!!! Whoever did that sure is pretty smart!

Quote :

4) You can pay her. Wait, that's not vanilla?

Nope, that's not vanilla, I made that.

Quote :

5) If you go understairs, ask politely for the blood vendor to open the door (now this requires medium Persuassion) or lock pick the door (LOW LOCK PICK), you can go from behind and find a key to Malcom's office at the admin's office. Plus, if you know the password (from the Werewolf quest, that also requires LOW lock pick), you can blackmail him easily enough.

True, but this still requires having a Feat at a certain level, which is the point of my argument.



The moral of the story is.... Side quests require certain Feats to be at certain levels to accomplish them. How is this different than me requiring Inspection to be level X to get Pisha's items or Bertram's CD. It's a hide and seek quest for goodness sakes.

And yes YamiRaziel, I can make sure the requirements aren't too high... just for you sugar pops!  

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=7793696

And you are the one to prove false.

MxM wrote:

I just remembered: you  can't use Auspex for the Bertram's CD as it is in an Elysium.
I actually like the new inspection system, buy I think the quest item should require a low level of inspection to be found

The Elysium isn't that big a deal. It's always possible to start the map as masquerade or combat area, and put in a trigger to set it to Elysium when you approach the actual Nossie home.
For any non-quest item, inspection is ok. But for quest items, please give another option as well. Even if it costs something. Like you can buy the stake from Trip if you don't find it. For the Museum fetish, hacking a computer to get an idea where it is located seems to be a good idea.
For the Giovanni book. Maybe with high persuasion or seduction, Nadia will show it to you.
I think there should be more than one way to solve quests. At least ones that have occult items as a reward, or are important for finishing the game. Like the Dane, where you can sneak in, leave a trail of corpses, or do it the easy way.

Absolutely agree to Malkav.

Also, the difference between the quests you mentioned and your approach is, that you get additional options or get the information that you need a higher stat to finish it.

There is a reason to come back then, or I can immediately invest some of my saved up XP to pass that challenge. With the investigation quests, I have either no clue what I need to do them or have no other way to finish them. There is no indication what could be done and atthat point I just loose a quest. Again, in my book its a huge difference in appeal if I know there is something to explore/pursuit. Be this a quest, benefit of skills (haggle, investigation, lockpick, hacking - the last 2 are easily seen in the game), or anything else. It is then up to me if I want to go down that path, but I do now know that there is a path to explore. Not giving me the proper instruction just hides those paths. Thats why I am so in favor of teasing information. Let them know that you will find more items with inspection. Maybe even announce that it might influence certain quests. Give the paths to follow where they can explore the game in its whole depth. I don't say force them down the path. Just show them the different ways.

Especially for the Pisha quests I dislike the idea of making it completely dependent on high inspection, because you can't come back later.
Anything else. If there is a hint that I might find something interesting with higher inspection... o.k.

Zer0Morph wrote:

YamiRaziel wrote:

Zer0Morph wrote:

I understand what you're saying, but how many other quests are dependent on having a certain Feat high enough to complete it? That's like, most of them, how is this different?

Hm, maybe I'm forgetting them. Can you name some? Are there quests that cannot be completed unless you've got a certain skill at certain level?

1.) Marianne Murietta - You need a Lockpick or Inspection of 5.
2.) Pain of being Mercurio - You need Lockpick 4 (I think) to get into Malcolm's office for the morphine.
3.) Copper - You need Persuasion 3 to sell the blood bags and stake to Copper.
4.) Replanting a Lily - Seduction to get the blood doll from Arizona to go to the Blood Bank.
Note: I made it so you can pay off Vandal instead based on Haggle, and you get Humanity
5.) Blackmail Malcolm - Hacking to read the emails from Paige.
6.) Werewolf Blood - You need all sorts of shit to complete that quest.
7.) Finding Lily - You need lockpicking to get into the backroom, or Persuasion.

Those are 7 in Santa Monica alone, I'm sure there's more, I'll have to think about it. Remember, these are side quests, not the main story. I can see not blocking the main story, that would be garbage, but side quests are optional so we can have a little more fun with them. Just my opinion.

1.) With the possible exception of werewolf blood, all those quest can either be completed in multiple ways or all you get out of them is some cash.
2.) None of those quest reward you with a powerful occult item.

That's why I'd like to be able to find Pisha's items even without Inspection. But what you could do is plant multiple instances of the items you are looking for on the map, randomly select one and then make all the others disappear (or randomly activate only one - whatever is easier to script). That way the item is there, but the location is somewhat random which makes it difficult to find without the sparkling effects.

You could use the same trick for the CD. Make it randomly placed and instantly visible to people with good inspection. Then once you get the quest it becomes visible even without inspection, but you don't get the sparkle effects. So without Inspection you can still find it, but it's a pain in the arse to do so, because that place is full of junk. If people think it's worth their time to run around the Nosferatu warrens for an hour to get that one dot of Hacking they are welcome to do so as far as I'm concerned.

Yea. Heavy requirements for the werewolf blood quest. You need hacking 2 to get the password for the safe from the admin computer and lockpicking 2 to get upstairs. And if you have no other option to get in the room, then you must kill the guard for the key. But that's all there is in requirements.

Childe of Malkav wrote:

Like the Dane, where you can sneak in, leave a trail of corpses, or do it the easy way.

There is a third way? How have I never seen this? What is it?

That's probably in reference to the sarcophagus. You can actually take a look at it on a security camera instead of having to walk out among the cops.

There is also a fourth alternative, doing it the hard way. Run out to the sarcophagus and then back of the ships. cops will shoot at you, but you just run (and activate Fortitude/Celerity if you have them) and not fight back. Just run of the ship. The prince will be happy with you for not killing any cops.

I usually check it through the camera

Depends how much time I want to spend there. If I'm in a hurry I use the cam, but when I want to have some fun, I use the sneak or run approach.

I thought the camera was supposed to be the sneaky way, and actually walking up to it for Brujah and Gangrel. Granted, the horn, or starting the engines should do SOMETHING, but meh.

You would think that police and security cameras would cause masquerade violations, but NOPE!

You know the police report is close to the sarcophagus right? And you get 1 XP for getting it? Don't be lazy, go down there and git dat shit! Git yo X's and P's brotha! LOL

I'll post when I've decided what I want to do about these quest items, then let you guys tear up my ideas.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, I hid the Gargoyle book in the chantry too, maybe I shouldn't have done that, LOLOLOLS. I hid EVERYTHING!!! HAHAHAHAHA!