When should TFN be released?

Ok Suckheads! Since real life has taken over Aqui’s world I am left on my own here on out for the skins. Here is a quick breakdown along with some decisions made on how I want to approach the skins for TFN 1.0.

Completed Skins
Assamite Male
Followers of Set Male
Followers of Set Female
Ishtarri Male
Ishtarri Female
Osebo Male
Osebo Female
Samedi Male

Uncompleted Skins
Baali Male
Baali Female
Salubri Female

Now, in order to make our Halloween release date some hard decisions had to be made. I did not want to do this but we had to because of time restraints. I’m sad to announce that some of the gender’s will not be available to play in TFN 1.0. This by no means is to say we am not creating them for TFN 1.1 because we are. But due to time we had to cut some of the playable clan genders to make our deadline. We felt that these few sets were not essential enough to delay TFN further.

Here is a breakdown of the Clan genders that won’t be playable in TFN 1.0…

Released on future versions
Assamite Female
Salubri Male
Samedi Female

Those of you who were really looking forward to playing these genders we apologize and promise you WILL get to play them… you’ll just have to play the opposite gender for now.

Also, I would like to add that Malkav and I are in the final stages of completing TFN 1.0. We are addressing all dialogue features and revamping the game (including the tutorial) to fit the new clans. Feel free to post comments and let me know your thoughts, we want to hear them!

Great, I can hardly wait to try TFN.And 3 missing out of 14 isn't big deal if you ask me...Good job as always Z.

srle wrote:

Great, I can hardly wait to try TFN.And 3 missing out of 14 isn't big deal if you ask me...Good job as always Z.

Ditto. I am chomping at the bit.

By the way, the pervasive sense of urgency facilitated by the blood timer, the pragmatic attractiveness of the e-mail college, and the DJ's musical embellishments make this current incarnation of VtMB absolutely titillating. Oh, the disciplines, skins, and randomly scattered items are nice too.

Now I don't want to seem like I'm one of those who can't be pleased, don't get this expression, it would be wrong, but I can't help being honest.
I've noticed the rush with which TFN is developed/brought to public, and up to now I could fully understand it. I mean, there's this great mod a lot of people are waiting for, and I'm sure the development team wants to be done with version 1.0, too, because at some point you just can't wait for actually playing what you are creating and showing it to others so they can enjoy, too, but this announcement ... well, I think now this rush for publication goes too far.
I can understand why you would want to release TFN at Halloween, it's simply a fitting date and I'm sure everbody has to smile at the connection between this event and the release, but I think you shouldn't forget that quality always is the most important factor. Well, in my opinion it should be, at least.
Please don't misunderstand me now, I don't say TFN is crap as it is now. Quite the opposite, it's astonishing, and I do mean this. Heck, even I can't wait to finally play it, after all this publicity my mouth surely is watering.
Nevertheless I would gladly wait another month if that meant that the mod upon its first release - while still in baby shoes, as we say in Germany, I don't know if this proverb actually has an equivalent in the english language - would be of better quality or more 'completed' than otherwise.
I don't mind that some features will not get included in the first version of TFN. That's a wise strategy and it's not like this would be the only chance to present ideas for further improvement. However I do quite mind that the mod isn't really complete.
Yes, I'm referring to the skins. I think since they seem to be a basic necessity for playing it does matter if there are some missing or not. Don't get me wrong, again, I can fully understand that we all have a Real Life and need to earn our living. Well, some way or another, you get what I mean. No offense to students or whoever's reading this. Although, back to the point, I think it would be better to postpone the publication of TFN than to give it to the players while it still isn't really 'complete'.
See, being honest, I have to add that I'll anyway download the mod upon release as soon as I can and start playing it, but ... something will seem wrong. Like something is missing. Yeah, again the skins, curse me, I'm picking at that point.
So, final statement. (Dude, if you read that far, respect.)
I would, given the opportunity, want to give the whole team more time to complete the mod so they, in the first place, are satisfied with their work and think that TFN is now 'ready' to face the eagerly waiting crowd.
I don't say your decision is wrong, Zer0. Well, I'll address you since I'm not sure of how all of you work together, and stuff (and because it's easier this way). I can fully understand that you want to release the mod. Not only because you want to be done with it, but because you have put time, effort and blood and sweat into it and you want it to finally 'see the light', so to speak, want it to be satisfying for all those out there who are waiting for it. But - and this is the final but, promise - I think you don't even need to hurry that much. I don't know how it is with the others, I can only speak for myself, and I just think that maybe, just maybe, I'm not the only one thinking that way.

Uff. That's it. Now, you are free to rip me apart if you so desire. This is MY humble opinion and everyone is free to either ignore it or stomp it to the ground. I don't care. All that I want to is not to be somebody who is always expecting and not giving something back. Actually, I feel quite bad about this ... because this wasn't actually giving something back. Only honest critique, sort of, at least, because I really want to avoid stepping on anyones toes. Sigh. God, I feel ungrateful.

Thanks. That's all I have, my thanks, and I can't say 'thank you' enough for both of this awesome mods. And now I'll finally stop rambling.

Oh Eliza, the artist in you makes no apologies. Look at the size of that post. Ooooweee.

The implication of a release date is a deadline. Without a deadline, there is neither a sense of urgency, nor a need for resolution.

Imagine for a moment that we live in world where the proper time needed for baking a cake to its optimal consistency is considered important no longer. The cake must come out of the oven sometime soon, lest it burn and become altogether a waste.

It's in our nature as human beings to fiddle, to tinker, to meddle, all born out of our inherent and indelible need to search. Our search for satisfaction.

The release date is mommy and daddy saying to us children, "Okay now, you've brushed your hair long enough. It looks good. Now let's go show everyone else what a good job you've done."

I definitely understand what Zoo is saying and I do agree with everything. However on the flipside, I can also very much appreciate Eliza's concern as it is both valid and warranted. Let me explain...

Eliza,

Don't for a second make apologies for that post, I really appreciate that you took the time to write it even at the possibility of coming off as a bad guy. You're honesty is valuable and your courage to speak your mind, even if it's not popular is equally valuable. So I thank you...

With that out of the way let me address your concerns. First off not in a million years would I ever release anything with my name stamped on it, that is anything less than professional. If I feel the player isn't going to get what they expected and more, I simply won't release it, nor would I ever release something that isn't 100% completed and playable.

I DO NOT cut corners, take short cuts, or ignore a problem no matter how small and it is my perfectionistic personality that I feel is the cornerstone to all of my work, and the work of my team. We (as in TCI) have grown to love this community and will only bring you the best quality that we have to offer... always without question.

Now, expanding on what Zoo already said, a video game (like any other work of art) can always be adjusted, modified, changed on a whim to suit the artists taste at the time. At some point in any creation you must draw a line that says "Ok, once we reach this point we will say our creation is done, even if we have future ideas". Now with TFN we have a choice. Because the nature of this expansion can always be modified, new ideas can always be implemented, and additional content can be added, we must too draw some sort of line and say "We have enough of a product and enough new fun stuff for the players to do where we feel confident in its release". If we don't draw that line at some point, we'd be working on this forever and you'd be waiting forever.

Take a look at the Antitribu Project... It's been in the works for a year and a half yet we don't have a single demo to watch, a single storyline to follow, or any kind of tangible "idea" for the game. They are still showing off bits and pieces of random art and ideas, but nothing with structure let alone a release date in sight. TCI doesn't operate that way, we draw up a game plan, stick to that game plan, and pretty much know everything that we want to do before we ever start working on it. If ideas come up during the development process (which they always do), we make note of it for future release, but don't let it deviate us from our main goal, we keep trucking forward.

Back in March 2010 when work began on TFN I already knew everything I wanted to do. In fact the "planning" stage of this started back in January 2010, so as you can see it took 2 months just to plan the project out... on paper no less. This is how any good project should go, and that’s what TCI has done.

So again, we feel we have a very exciting project that WILL BE complete and will be a huge joy to the community, but know that additional content will be included in future version. We have a long string of ideas we want to implement for versions 1.1 and beyond that involve the remaining skins, new quests, histories, more NPCs, Citizen Seduction System, just all sorts of cool stuff... but at some point you have to say enough is enough, let's release this beast into the world.

I really hope this lays your heart as ease and for anyone who was concerned about the same thing. And again I appreciate your post, both you and Zoo...

-Z

z.o.o. wrote:

Oh Eliza, the artist in you makes no apologies. Look at the size of that post. Ooooweee.

And I actually thought I had cut it pretty short. Honestly, I could go on rambling like that forever.
(Meh, I have to get some cookies now. z.o.o., you made me hungry. om nom nom)

Anyway, back to topic.

Throwing the overwhelming, crushing ball of 'thanks' back to you, Zer0.
It is certainly comforting to read your reassurance, and though I can only guess how much the whole team put into the mod, I can't help but be somewhat ... anxious. I don't know, I think this evening was a little bit confusing for me (which has nothing to do with TFN or the forum). Apologizes for being confusing now, too, if that's the case.
Back to topic again, the comparison with the Antitribu mod gave me chills. I mean, the idea of this mod sounds very promising, but what they are making of it... I think the expectations are set too high, they can't possibly meet them. And they are working and working and working and getting nowhere... yes, you're certainly right. Better to deliver more features later on than never delivering anything to the fans. Nevertheless I still wouldn't mind if you waited some time to include the missing skins, but I already said enough concerning that, haven't I?

Well then, keeping my fingers crossed that no problems arise while you're fine-tuning TFN. Blow our minds, guys. And don't let big posts crush you.

*ahem*

I want to play the gawddamn game. That's why i accepted to join TCI in the first place.
Do what you think it's right, Zero.

Eliza wrote:

Throwing the overwhelming, crushing ball of 'thanks' back to you, Zer0.
It is certainly comforting to read your reassurance, and though I can only guess how much the whole team put into the mod, I can't help but be somewhat ... anxious. I don't know.

Nevertheless I still wouldn't mind if you waited some time to include the missing skins, but I already said enough concerning that, haven't I?

Well then, keeping my fingers crossed that no problems arise while you're fine-tuning TFN. Blow our minds, guys. And don't let big posts crush you.

I'm glad to hear we have your confidence once again, we won't let you down.

Also, just to make sure we're on the same page. The skins that aren't completed (F Assamite, M Salubri, F Samedi) will be unavailable to play in TFN 1.0, we aren't using the vanilla skins just so the fans can play it. That would be unprofessional in my opinion, you will only see TFN skins for the new clans, no recycles. Just wanted to make sure we were clear on that point.

Consider those 3 playable characters as extra features for future versions. Also this is another way that we can release those playable characters into the game without being rushed, and we can spend xtra time with them to do it right.

ThePhilosopher wrote:

*ahem*

I want to play the gawddamn game. That's why i accepted to join TCI in the first place.
Do what you think it's right, Zoo.

Zoo? Did you mean to put my name in there? LOL

I agree, I want to play this game too. Even more than that I want the base foundation for TFN done and ready to go so we can start adding all the bells n whistles in. Getting TFN changed over from the original 7 clans to the new TFN clans is proving to be a huge daunting task, but obviously necessary to make it work.

Once the base foundation is laid and all the "Change Over Bugs" are eliminated, then the real fun begins for us developers *wink.

Oh and Philosopher, where's my .lip files?!?! LOL

Om nom nom...

Baby bunnies!

Wow, it took me over 10 minutes to read the entire topic
Zer0Morph, I understand your point but I agree with Eliza's feeling that something will be left incomplete.
I would like to remind you something. The community here, which has grown a lot in the past few months, is tracking every update you are making, but believe me a huge part of the players that are going to try out your mod won't be doing the same. So it is very important how you are going present the TFN 1.0 version.
I understand that there should be deadlines so if you really want to release TFN 1.0 version on Halloween I would suggest you "lock" the entire clans of Assamite, Salubri & Samedi not only one of the genders.
In the next patch you will be able to release 3 entirely new clans, with new abilities and dialogues, which is a lot of new content thus making sure more people will download it and see all the amazing work your team has done.
I'm sorry for my poor English, but I haven't spoken the language for quite some time and I'm getting rusty.
Whenever your decide, this community will be behind you

I agree with YamiRaziel and Eliza. It's a better option to release TFN 1.0 with three clans missing than having them integrated but only "half finished". Most people dislike games in which some content is missing or not completely done, eventhough if it is a fan mod.

Another option would be that you release a beta version, so that the community can check the finished content out and while receiving feedback about possible bugs etc. you can simultaneously work on the missing skins.

Anyways, I appreciate your work and effort and I'm looking forward to the first release.

I't will be bad if some genders of the clans are not included in TFN 1.0 but it will be worst if the clans are completely missing.
But if this is the way it has to be...
btw, Zer0 what happened to our little conversation about...you know.
We won't tell you guys

YamiRaziel wrote:

...Zer0Morph, I understand your point but I agree with Eliza's feeling that something will be left incomplete.
I would like to remind you something. The community here, which has grown a lot in the past few months, is tracking every update you are making, but believe me a huge part of the players that are going to try out your mod won't be doing the same. So it is very important how you are going present the TFN 1.0 version...I would suggest you "lock" the entire clans of Assamite, Salubri & Samedi not only one of the genders. In the next patch you will be able to release 3 entirely new clans, with new abilities and dialogues, which is a lot of new content thus making sure more people will download it and see all the amazing work your team has done...

That's a good point.

I approve of Yami's opinion. Get those three clans out of the 1.0, even if they are mostly done, and then you can make a patch fixing it all up

Well the clans would be 100% done, you would just only have the option of playing one gender instead of both, that's the only difference. You would rather not have access to 3 clans what so ever meaning you can only play as 4 different clans then play as all 7 but 3 of those clans you are limited to one gender?

So you guys would rather NOT be able to play as Assamite, Salubri, or Samedi upon the games release because you can't play 1 of the genders? I guess I'm confused by this thinking.

Zero, don't get us wrong. We are dying to play Salubri, Samedi & Assamite! What we are saying is that we can wait a month or two more so you can finish it entirely. We don't want you to rush it and having only 1 of the genders feels somehow... incomplete.
My humble opinion is that you will benefit if you do it with only 4 clans in TFN 1.0 and having a major patch that adds the rest of the 3 clans in TFN 1.1 or TFN 2.0. You will keep the hype and give the rest of your fans a reason to replay Bloodlines a few more times.
It's your call Zero but know something. The community here is going to be pleased whatever you decide. We will play the mod regardless of the way you release it. It's the fans that are not as dedicated as we are that you shoud think about.

Well that gives me something to think about... but just know you guys would be waiting alot longer for full implementation... I mean we're talking possibly Christmas time.

Zer0Morph wrote:

So you guys would rather NOT be able to play as Assamite, Salubri, or Samedi upon the games release because you can't play 1 of the genders? I guess I'm confused by this thinking.

Fickle is the general public.

We have been socially conditioned to believe our hubris is the only trait worth appealing to, and to exemplify any noble aspect of our character is no more than a nicety - something to be disregarded with the same ease as an exhaled breath.

Mass media, in its rapacious search for viewership wants for nothing else but, to court our hubris even if it means shepherding the general public into a state of hypocrisy and an unbridled lust for the ignominious.

The lack of genders in certain clans could be construed as indecisiveness.

The fickle public might pounce on this perceived indecisiveness and rent you asunder.

Why? Just because.

I have no problem seeing a version where one can only play as one gender, regarding a few of the clans. Since I do know that the next version will contain these, this is no issue at all for me. It is better to see a few clans that are done properly first, which would give you the time to work on the rest of the clans. I would suspect that you would be more relaxed creating version 1.1 knowing that the fans have v 1.0 to play with. The preassure to release 1.0 as soon as possible, and fully complete, might lead to that the uncomplete clans are hurried and as a result not as detailed.

Of course, this is my humble opinion and speculation.

Those were my thoughts as well OuiYepp. I would rather release 11 playable characters in full detail than 14 hurried characters where we might miss something. Then again it sounds like a few fans would rather just wait a few more months and get all 14 characters in full detail.

Honestly I can swing either way, if the majority would rather wait a few more months (around Christmas probably) and get all 14 characters in full detail then I can do that -OR- get TFN around Halloween with 11 characters in full detail I can do that too.

I'd like to hear more opinions on this.

Not like you can't do a playthrough with a complete clan and then do another when the rest is finished.

Exactly... and remember you will have access to all 7 clans regardless of a Halloween or Christmas release. It's just if we release around Halloween the Female Assamite, Male Salubri, and Female Samedi would be unavailable to play.

Regardless though, TFN 1.1 will feature all 14 characters and all 7 clans so in time this whole topic will be moot.

I'm ok with having it on halloween, the salubri are not my favourites and i only play as male.
Yeah REPRSENT

i vote for release on halloween... reasons: cant w8 anymore, wow 3 chars not playable and? till x-mas you can play 11 chars! you will be able to play the new clans and test and might bug reporting, so that the x-mas vers is mostly bugfree and and and^^ i am too lazy to finish atm cuz i have an urgent business to doo

you can just call the halloween release TFN 1.0 Beta or 0.9 etc.. so i dont realy see a reason for not releasing on halloween only cuz of 3 missing chars..

sry for my english, i am from germany^^