Questions on the future plans of this mod

Am reaching for my Bloodlines CDs once more as I write this, lol. I really am impressed with the reviews so far

Just a couple of quick questions though about the future of this mod.

For one - it was mentioned that you wanted a more open ended, bethesda feel to the game - just wandering if this will include perhaps altering the introduction into a more Morrowind/Fallout 3 fashion where perhaps you play out your last mortal hours, perhaps earn your disciplines through certain dialogues or actions you take (When I run a VtM game with newly embraced characters I make them earn their disciplines instead of just starting with them, but maybe that's just me )

For another, are there any plans for perhaps adding other clans? I know the first argument will be: But this is the Camarilla Edition! But the Camarilla argue that all campires are under their legislation, besides, they only took the area recently, even antitribu or classically sabbat or independant clans could have been traced in the area - a puppet is a puppet whatever clan they might be, you're one misstep from being on the bloodhunt afterall - perhaps hiding your heritage could be powerful blackmailing material against you. Once more I think far, far too ahead though. I personally enjoyed the Clan Add-Ons pack for a while, would hate to lose the diversity in the long run

A final note, I am a student programmer, who currently has plenty of free time at hand and an interest in modding. If you can afford to lend me some direction I may be able to assist on simpler tasks. I have had no prior experience in this engine and have only briefly glanced through files before now. Though I will be of assistance if I can, I have played the game somewhat thoroughly and am an avid reader on the OWoD 'factual' literature (aka, I haven't read many of the novels, but pretty much all the sourcebooks)

Hello 8, welcome to the CE site.

I will do what I can to answer your questions....

1. I totally wish we could do this. I really like this idea and we've been toying with how to go about it for some time. I'm sure it's possible to do but it would be incredibly time consuming. I personally am not sure where I'd start out here but if someone who does was able to give me a hand I would be down for putting this into the game.

2. New Clans = New Disciplines. Problem with this is you cannot seem to create new disciplines in the game, only overwrite old ones which limits the number of discipilines we can have in game. To go about this we would need to wipe out the Camarilla Clans and go for a Caitiff/Antitribu setup in their place, then we would need to wipe out some of the old disciplines as well. We could use the old story with some new twists but all in all it would still be the same game, just new clans, histories, and disciplines. Entirely possibly to do and I might add I've been toying with this idea for some time. I'm running out of ideas for Cammie clans.

3. I appreciate the offer, do you know how to code in python script? Knowing the ins and outs of this game is crucial to modding it. Unfortunately Troika gave us no support on modding Bloodlines so everything we have is community built (tools n such). Knowing how to navigate around all of this crap is proven to be a headache, but the tradeoff are some pretty incredible and fun mods, like CE!

Z, this might not be much of a help, but it servers to give some new ideas..

I think of of clans on the Camarilla side that may have a total different gameplay, like Ventrue..but would be too much work >< sadly I don't know how to mod (max I've done was edit Diablo II gear and Fable tatoos).

If was possible to add an timer at Quest Log screen and let's say 10 minutes for us would be 1 day in-game, we would daily receive some money ($50) no matter what clan, but if Ventrue around $150, I don't know if it's possible, but make new maps and buildings or copy existing ones and mix with other maps to create something new, so as Ventrue we would have some extra quests and kinda be able to buy an office and make quests to make it grow so the PC is able to have some company of his and Lacroix as some business partner, if it's not possible to change the voice, the quests could come by e-mail.There's a lot of things that is possible to do if the game engine may enable and a large team (wich is the most difficult I guess), the final result could be Ventrue owning a large company that brings some good profit daily ($3000+), in case of Nosferatus, some mass hacking network ( in this case maybe only more quests of nosfies about hacking and some average daily fee).If it's something possible to make and you have some interest I can try bring more ideas.

From my poit of view even if possible, one person alone can't do this, the time required would be insane I guess, since would require not saying remake the game, but using it's resources to add much more. (The timer stuff wouldn't influence the game on Story quests, like in GTA, no matter how many days passes, people won't push you to make that quest, unless someone wanna add some corpse pile on Downtown if the Plague Bearer quest is not made lol )

Why would you get money for doing nothing? You don't get paid for being undead.

The engine bloodlines uses makes map editing difficult, you can't create new areas and altering existing ones can only be done within certain limitations.

It would be difficult for one person to do alone - you'd need to completely change the engine. Pretty much from the base up.

Been into modding for years - can be a killer on enthusiasm the more you look into limitations, but once you learn how to work within them it's much easier. Also gives you direction on what you want to learn to alter.

The money would be Lacroix's support, but about a reason, can be some new and difficult quest that can give you that while still on Santa Monica's or Downtown max wich greatly benefits Lacroix maybe.Other way could be change instead of days, months, like.. each certain minutes or each hour = 1 month in-game.

I do wanna learn modding, i'm doing Administration on college, first year yet, but thinking about getting something more related to games or computers in general.

Yes, but to LaCroix - he holds the power of the traditions of the Camarilla - especially the Tradition of Destruction. You owe him your unlife, you're a pawn in his game, he's hardly going to let a pawn he wants disposed get a slice of his profits.

He'll have ghouls that will work for a sip of blood a month and all the coffee they can drink after all

Ventrue (traditionally) when embraced are taken under their sires' wing on a training and tutoring stage called the 'Agoge' in which they learn ettiquette, their powers, their place in society and how things are done, who the power players are, who everyone in the area is and what is in whos' domain. After this they are expected to - on their own - carve out their own niche in the city without any assistance. Ventrue are then expected to keep tight hold on their territory or lose it to another. As an Ancillae as least, teaming up with a fledgling to improve his business would reflect very poorly on LaCroix.

There is also the fact that the game is based over a series of nights - a couple of weeks tops - and it takes a lot longer than that to get a small business up and running in *any* market. There simply wouldn't be the dedicated time for a kindred who's running around like a blue arsed fly trying to find one of the fathers of Gehenna.

You also get a LOT of money simply doing quests around the town and following the story. Especially if you go melee Then you have to factor in whether or not you're with the camarilla, the anarchs or declare yourself autarkis. Judging by how many kindred are within LaCroixs' office at the end - you would be made bankrupt before you could say 'stockmarket' if you showed any flutter of allegience to anyone other than LaCroix.

Didn't knew these details about Ventrue, thought they acted like that due to Cain's gift, know I understand what Jack tells about how Ventrue are born lol. Yea, that would ruin the idea haha guess the PC as Ventrue must be a lot different than the others of his clan since no one to teach him the politics so no limits for him to act.

Ventrue tend to be businessy because their antediluvian (pregenator) was one who liked to take control and embrace those with similar attributes and it's pretty much just followed down the line, like many of the other clans really. (Except Brujah, but that's a long story, lol!)

There is also a trait Ventrue have - in pnp Ventrue clan weakness is they have a certain TYPE of blood they can drink, such as only from abused housewives or from successful businessmen. Which influences who they embrace to some extent as well, if they can't consume the blood themselves. They'll condition their offspring into their image if they don't fit it upon death anyway

8people wrote:

such as only from abused housewives or from successful businessmen.

The second one is ok but the first one is meanie o.O" kinda take out their elitish way.

So Antediluvians were like common vampires(In act ways)?Because they would select who to embrace by having certain similarities, I always had in mind these vampire would be more god-alike in means of power and personality.

Herbst wrote:

8people wrote:

such as only from abused housewives or from successful businessmen.

The second one is ok but the first one is meanie o.O" kinda take out their elitish way.

Why not? The way I understand it, the specialization for Ventrue in the PnP can be anything that is a real restriction on the character. I've played with someone who played a Ventrue who could only drink from people smaller than himself... and he was embrced in the 50s

Herbst wrote:

So Antediluvians were like common vampires(In act ways)?Because they would select who to embrace by having certain similarities, I always had in mind these vampire would be more god-alike in means of power and personality.

Antedeluvians certainly are "common" vampires. The once were humans just like any vampire today. Only they got embraced by somone who got embraced by Caine himself (if the mythology is correct). So their Blood certainly is stronger than today at syay 9th or 10th generation. But they were once humans just like you and me. And that's what a god is all about in most mythologies: Someone with human desires and failures, but supernatural powers.
Just think about it. If you were a vampire with a chance of living forever; who would you embrace to be with you for such a long time? Someone with similar traits and interests or somone who completely opposes you at all costs?
I don't think even Malkav would be so mad...

-

Even Malkav wasn't that mad at first, he was a seer - over the years he saw more and more and more of what he saw he'd seen before and he learnt to touch out to the minds of his kin and childer and the fractured collection of information what was, what could be, what hadn't been and what should have eventually led to his cracking mentality and the desire to puzzle out what was wrong with him - which passed onto his childer - which passed on to what traits the look out for in potential embraces - another piece of a puzzle.

The entediluvians are ANCIENT and are so incredibly powerful it's untrue. Their absolution of power and their lives spanning the millenia changes who they are into the god-like monstrosities that slumber away in the ancient nights - not their tiny mortal lives of a few spare decades. They are, quite simply - immense.

I just thought that someone who was embraced by Caine himself would have such power he/she would abandon any humanity in means of feeling (not embracing the Beast) and would be somewhat an absolute racional being, who would select some human that has the guts to maintain order in some society this Antediluvian may want to create in any case he may die or something like that.

Unlike Bloodlines - in 'reality' of the pnp setting it takes a hell of a lot longer than a few nights to get fives in ANYTHING - being embraced by such a low generation opens up neigh unlimited POTENTIAL for power. As a vampire barely a few nights old they would not have any more power than the average mortal, except perhaps a couple of disciplines and an INCREDIBLE hunger for blood.

The average modern kindred has the potential to hold ten points of blood - a vampire of fourth generation has the potential to hold FIFTY points of blood, imagine how HUNGRY they feel ALL the time while trying not to kill all those around them and still wanting to experiment with their untapped power - a careful balance has to be struck.

Third generation have unknown blood pools, possible over a hundred. So it would be harder to remain human as the hunger and the beast would be so damn strong.

Wow o.o

Well, even the earlier generations having such power and conflict, is it showed in any book something about Caine? I think he wouldn't have a beast and such conflict as most vampires, theorically he would be the most beast alike and powerfull, but I think it isn't in that way, maybe only his descendants got all this darker things.

I would like to know more about Caine, but so far it lacks information on the two games I know, in Redemption I can't even recall his name being announced and in Bloodlines is all a secret.(But I must say that black aura around the cab driver is really something different since most vampire got purple ones).

Since Doomsday already passed they could do something like : Vampire The Masquerade - Origins(or whatever fits such theme), to finally find out the true or something that shows if Caine is real or some metaphorical being as Beckett defended. (But I think if such answer would be given White Wolf would went bankrupt lol )

The whole point of the games is that the origins are NOT known, it's left up to storyteller discretion and player involvement. The history of humankind is sketchy enough let alone for a species that has been hunted repeatedly and is cursed to betray one another into all eternity.

The pnp books are quite cheap nowadays, so finding out what scraps of information and rumours were is easier as well.

The 'solid' proof is that Caine slew Abel to appease God and God was furious, in that one act Caine invented the very notions of murder, betrayal, hatred and a range of other devastating things. Caine left and wandered the lands East of Nod, there four angels came to him, in the morning of each new day after he slept, offering him forgiveness for his actions - but Caine refused all four times. Weakness to fire, Death by Sunlight, Thirst for blood, to be betrayed by all his kin.

Caine eventually met Lilith - the first wife of Adam, who refused to be his lesser as they were both made from the same earth, she fled after both God and Adam spurned her, she is considered by many to be the first magi, who drew power from her own will, her own life force - and she taught Caine how to do the same, Caine learnt the basics of disciplines, how to use the life in his veins to fuel fantastic abilities. To empower himself further. He learnt how to bind others to him through blood - just three sips, and learnt from her how to create kin, so he would not be alone in his suffering.

Caine grew stronger and felt that he outgrew Lilith and her teachings, he betrayed her and left, as he realised his thirst for blood grew with each night and with each use of power - he learnt that blood fueled his existance - and many say he blamed Lilith.

He embraced three childer, at least - the numbers are sketchy. In one instance the First Generation are described as a married couple who when they discovered their inability to have children naturally they held hands and walked out into sunrise together. Caine then embraced Enoch, Zillah and Irad (the most common names used) though Clanbook Assamite suggests five of the 'Second Generation' (Yeah, I know, they were embraced by Caine still so should be first generation - but mythology is mythology and thoroughly screwed up :p) and from them he took comfort for a time. But Caine buggered off into the East again and his three childer made more childer, and those childer made childer, and so on and so on... Cain was a bit pissed at this and cursed each of the Third Generation - the founders of the thirteen clans (and others who had not made childer yet - or whos' lines died in the following nights.)

Those curses ring true even in the current nights with each clan suffering an aspect of the curse of God with greater intensity from their dark father. Even Tremere and Giovanni - new clans from the Salubri and Cappadocian respectively - suffer in some form, products of curses from those they slaughtered.

Caine disappeared East one last time, around the time of the great flood - hiding away until the final nights, or perhaps God finally took his stolen life away.

So Caine was turned into a vampire after the four angels or the secrets Lilith taught him waked on him some untapped ability?

Nobody actually knows

A personal theory is that he died at some point and just didn't notice, perhaps he only found out after trying to have children the normal way, perhaps he died the moment God first cursed him - so both Caine and Abel died in that one day. Nobody actually knows.

Haha I loved this =p gonna search all I can about Cain, I love to try find out something about chars even if it's just to try some theory.

But one doubt I have about Lilith, she's a fictional char created for vampire fables or actually she's part of bible? 'Cause in the days I was forced to go to the church I never heard her name.

She's kept out of Christian Mythology but appears in some Jewish mythology.

Cool, I'll search for info then, thx ( you know a lot from White Wolf serie)

I have pretty much all the books in some form, plus I have an innate interest in mythology and the supernatural from a very early age

Cool, I like such subjects but I don't have all books about the clans, only Brujah one. I'll see if in some site they have a list of all releases, I want to look Beckett's story now that I read Jack's one.

I enjoyed reading this conversation.

Herbst wrote:

Cool, I'll search for info then, thx ( you know a lot from White Wolf serie)

If you're interested in the books see here: http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=1&filters=0_0_0_0_0 and http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/index.php?cPath=9

The books in the VTM series are decently priced or free in some cases. Since I've found out the VTM books are out of print this is the perfect site to get every single book WW has published past, present and future. Have a look around and see if you see anything you like.

Info about Caine: http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php?title=Caine and http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Caine

Hope that helps and you enjoy everything.

Thanks for the links Chris, downloading some books right now ^^ and yea, the prices are quite good.