New and Excluusive Quests???

Dragatus wrote:

Bad Zer0! The lady was being so nice to you (flaying herself to give you a new pair of pajamas for Caine's sake) and what do you do? You tell her filthy lies about your own mod.

It was a typo, I meant to say Obeah not Serpentis. I made a mistake... even a demiurge can make a mistake on occasion!!

Velvet wrote:

dragatus, your criticism of zer0morph is unwarranted,
i would say even herectical, how dare a mere denizen of the universe claim to knoiw more about it than the demiurge, the one who created the universe in the first place?
plus, all your assertions seem based on logic and straightforward connection,
while zer0 himself asserted that he had sort of scrambled things around and he explained that logic could not apply and why.

with that said, it breaks my heart to admit it, oh my dear sweet zer0morph,
but the lengths the skeptical dragatus went to debunk your assertions
ended up being going... two or more extra miles, that i really needed,
or, answered an half formed wish that it was assumed.

Oh Velvet dear, I didn't mean to let you down. How can I make it up to you??

Dragatus wrote:

He's a big bad father of vampires. He can take a little teasing every now and then. Especially when it's all in good fun.

Haha it's True.. I can take a poke and prick every now and again. What would be even funnier would be to delete Draggy's account to make him start over as a fledgling, Muhahahaha!!! Now THAT would be funny!!!

But I won't...

Zer0Morph wrote:

What would be even funnier would be to delete Draggy's account to make him start over as a fledgling, Muhahahaha!!! Now THAT would be funny!!!

Well, I recently relaized I spend too much time online and now I'm thinking about what I could give up on. Deleting my account would make the decision much easier.

Not that I'm encouraging you or anything.

Yaay~ One less Tremere after my hide. :3

Whoa whoa whoa Draggy I was kidding. It wouldn't be the same without you around here.

Turning other people's weapons against them is fun.

Don't worry, I'm not planning to leave anytime soon.

Dragatus wrote:

Turning other people's weapons against them is fun.

Most excellent
You please me, good sir.

dragatus just to be sure, re potence, ergo it is equally useful in brawl AND melee, right?
that IS very good to know, i guess there are situations in the game that can only be dealt that way, but i always abhored to have to resort to that. either manage to take them down at a distance with ranged, or use stealth for stealth kills, or incapacitating them with incapacitating discipline (ergo my needing to ask you which targeted discipline would go well with salubri) and then feed on them, killing two birds in one stone, replenishing blood pool and getting rid of them.
hence, i repeat, an actual serious reason for asking for a targeted discipline, not merely the hocus pocus one you reffered, i had forgotten about that,
and....
then, in light of this, to me at least, fortitude actually becomes becomes rather useless and pointless....
(oops, did i mix potence with fortitude? and was it my fault, somehow i got mixed up in the brief time between reading your post and starting to answer it? or your fault, a vague memory that the passive discipline in salubri is actually fortitude, not potence? whose typo)

on another matter, i already came accross a situation you forewarned me, trick or treatment, the ability to heal heather poe our upcoming ghoul either with a sip of our blood or using the discipline obeah.
but, on that account....
while, yeah, you get more XPs that way and actually achieve the dubious achievement of breaking the masquerade - although a bad thing, a trigger for a new quest - you.... er.... loose the ability of making of her a ghoul, and... that whole character- and plot- arc is....
so that, in the end, i decided NOT to do it that way, not to use the discipline in order to heal her....




and, on that matter....
zer0morph,
as mod designer, here, you must be aware of the whole controversy "powerless/helpless watching her being murdered vs. the chance to actually getting a chance at saving her" in that quest where we take down the sabbat hovel....
what is the status of that conundrum in TFN?
have you been able to open that scene so that, instead of a video clip that you are forced to merely watched, it can evolve into a situation where you can actually do something?
or is that something that is too hardwired for even you to do something about it?

and, sorry for breaking with my tradition of addressing a post to two people at the same time, actually the subject in question took precedence, but, you know?

if you are looking for a way to make up for your recent failings,
(er, is this sounding less velvet more jeanette or even therese?)
would be to answer this question as thoroughly or more than you have answered others....

bearing in mind past ways of aphrodite dealing with certain kinds of situations, Divinity forbid that she might get a mere wiff of what is going down here!

oh and i do agree,

turning other people's weapons against themselves can be oodles of fun!!!

well, provided you don't antagonize them too much on the process,
Who knows how they could react...

threats are another issue....

And thus unrelated.
I also believe in the saying "one time is no time".

Not to mention "an eye for an eye", if I insult someone big time, I won't hold it against them if they photoshop my face to a rhino who is having depraved sex with a koala while dressed as a goblin and having said koala beat it with plastic bags full of raw chicken.

Granted, I'm one of the many who lurk around the net.

Velvet, you said all passive disciplines are defensive so I mentioned Potence as an example of a passive discipline that is offensive. I never said that the Salubri have it. And yes, Potence works for brawl and melee, but in TFN only the Osebo clan has Potence.

IIRC you can potentially save Heather, but not in that scene. If she's in the hotel, she always dies. The way you can save her is by picking the right options in dialogue with her throughout the game. You need to make her careful and prevent her from being captured in the first place. But I'm not sure if you can still get the body armor if you do that.

Personally I always prefered getting body armor over saving Heather.

Dragatus wrote:

But I'm not sure if you can still get the body armor if you do that.

I am afraid it is a morall dillema: either Heather or body armor.

Dragatus wrote:

Personally I always prefered getting body armor over saving Heather.

Ruthless... How could you be so uncaring!?
On the other hand, you are a Tremere...

Dragatus wrote:

IIRC you can potentially save Heather, but not in that scene. If she's in the hotel, she always dies. The way you can save her is by picking the right options in dialogue with her throughout the game. You need to make her careful and prevent her from being captured in the first place. But I'm not sure if you can still get the body armor if you do that.

Personally I always prefered getting body armor over saving Heather.

...And here I thought I was the one getting low on Humanity after all the BS you, your clanmates and other parties have been throwing my way.

Oh and Vel, there are many different ways to save Heather. They differ by mods and patches.

In the vanilla Bloodlines, you can send her away before the hotel.

In Companion Mod, you can have her accompany you instead of dying.

In the patches (I forget which one) which is present in Clan Quest, Final Nights and Camarilla Edition mods, theres an option to tell her to stay indoors until it's over. I think it comes up when she states that she feels as if someone has been following her.

SaulottheGentle wrote:

Dragatus wrote:

IIRC you can potentially save Heather, but not in that scene. If she's in the hotel, she always dies. The way you can save her is by picking the right options in dialogue with her throughout the game. You need to make her careful and prevent her from being captured in the first place. But I'm not sure if you can still get the body armor if you do that.

Personally I always prefered getting body armor over saving Heather.

...And here I thought I was the one getting low on Humanity after all the BS you, your clanmates and other parties have been throwing my way.

Oh and Vel, there are many different ways to save Heather. They differ by mods and patches.

In the vanilla Bloodlines, you can send her away before the hotel.

In Companion Mod, you can have her accompany you instead of dying.

In the patches (I forget which one) which is present in Clan Quest, Final Nights and Camarilla Edition mods, theres an option to tell her to stay indoors until it's over. I think it comes up when she states that she feels as if someone has been following her.

What do you expect from one of the immortality thieves? For them a ghoul is merely someone to clean up the mess in the library after you left all the books used for your studies lying around. And if one is slaughtered by the Sabbat, well, you can always get half a dozen new ones...

About the ways of saving Heather, you are mostly right. And in the patch, you can also buy the body armor from Mercurio. I don't recall now if you can get it during the bloodhunt, or only after, for the endgame.

And anyways, wtf do I need the body armor for? If I could get it before I have to deal with Fishface, it might be useful, but as it is...

-

SaulottheGentle wrote:

In the vanilla Bloodlines, you can send her away before the hotel.

In Companion Mod, you can have her accompany you instead of dying.

In the patches (I forget which one) which is present in Clan Quest, Final Nights and Camarilla Edition mods, theres an option to tell her to stay indoors until it's over. I think it comes up when she states that she feels as if someone has been following her.

Both the vanilla and the UP allows sending her away, along with at one point being able to tell her "Stay Inside". If a mod is based on the UP, it will have the same option.

For the Companion Mod, and for CQM with the CompMod Lite option installed, it does not matter if you take Heather with you to the Hallowbrook(or anywhere else in the game), you won't be seeing her die in the hotel. Nor at any other point in the game, since even if enemies knock her out, then she will get up soon enough.

Feral wrote:

Ruthless... How could you be so uncaring!?

It's very simple. You just need to stop thinking about her as a person.

Maybe if she had an interesting personality I'd feel different. But as thing stand her personality is basically being crazy about me, which is nice but not particularly intriguing. So I just milk her dry and let the Sabbat dispose of her.

Dragatus wrote:

Feral wrote:

Ruthless... How could you be so uncaring!?

It's very simple. You just need to stop thinking about her as a person.

Maybe if she had an interesting personality I'd feel different. But as thing stand her personality is basically being crazy about me, which is nice but not particularly intriguing. So I just milk her dry and let the Sabbat dispose of her.

...Dearest Saulot, that almost sounds like rape.
No wonder the Baali tend to hide amongst the Tremere. No offense, Vora.

SaulottheGentle wrote:

Dragatus wrote:

Feral wrote:

Ruthless... How could you be so uncaring!?

It's very simple. You just need to stop thinking about her as a person.

Maybe if she had an interesting personality I'd feel different. But as thing stand her personality is basically being crazy about me, which is nice but not particularly intriguing. So I just milk her dry and let the Sabbat dispose of her.

...Dearest Saulot, that almost sounds like rape.
No wonder the Baali tend to hide amongst the Tremere. No offense, Vora.

It is not like human rape. It transcends it's scope and depth of depravity.

Dragatus wrote:

It's very simple. You just need to stop thinking about her as a person.

I do not. I treat her as part of my pack.

Feral wrote:

SaulottheGentle wrote:

Dragatus wrote:

Feral wrote:

Ruthless... How could you be so uncaring!?

It's very simple. You just need to stop thinking about her as a person.

Maybe if she had an interesting personality I'd feel different. But as thing stand her personality is basically being crazy about me, which is nice but not particularly intriguing. So I just milk her dry and let the Sabbat dispose of her.

...Dearest Saulot, that almost sounds like rape.
No wonder the Baali tend to hide amongst the Tremere. No offense, Vora.

It is not like human rape. It transcends it's scope and depth of depravity.

You're overdramatizing. Kine milk each other for money on an even larger scale.

Quote :

I do not. I treat her as part of my pack.

That's nice.

Dragatus wrote:

Feral wrote:

SaulottheGentle wrote:

Dragatus wrote:

Feral wrote:

Ruthless... How could you be so uncaring!?

It's very simple. You just need to stop thinking about her as a person.

Maybe if she had an interesting personality I'd feel different. But as thing stand her personality is basically being crazy about me, which is nice but not particularly intriguing. So I just milk her dry and let the Sabbat dispose of her.

...Dearest Saulot, that almost sounds like rape.
No wonder the Baali tend to hide amongst the Tremere. No offense, Vora.

It is not like human rape. It transcends it's scope and depth of depravity.

You're overdramatizing. Kine milk each other for money on an even larger scale.

Err...are you talking to me or Feral?

And if one thinks about it, money is more like notes to Santa. They're worth squat yet everyone plays along anyways.

And on another note, just blood binding in general...well, I could go into it, but I think there was an entire topic on it somewhere in the CE or TFN sections, brb, looking it up.

Found it~
https://camarillaedition.darkbb.com/t165-ideas-for-heather

3rd and 4th posts.

Oh, and Draggy, by that I was just stating that using her for everything she has then just simply dumping her and leaving her to die, alone and scared, not to mention how the 3rd and 4th posts in the links above explain blood binding in greater detail.

I can understand keeping her to make the haven seem less empty, and giving her a home to live in after saving her life, hell, even getting a few rashes or abit loose in the head is a minimal price to pay for having a life saved by a Nosferatu or Malkie PC. As selfish as keeping her is.

Sending her off and allowing the blood binding to wear off, or outright dementing her to believe it was all a dream, or commanding her through dominate to leave and never return is allowing her to spend the rest of her life with the people she loves, her friends and family is a much better fate than being devoted as a vampire's thrall for eternity.

But my point in equating it to rape is that outright using her as nothing short as a blood doll and supplier of goods (feel free to interpret it in whatever way possible) and allowing her to die.
Yes, she may not have a personality, but then again, that's common when drugged up. Which is what Knox equated to vampire blood to.
The reason I equated it to rape is that the blood bond was allowed to continue and mature to the point where her mind, feelings and personality became violated by blood where it can only think of, love and worship the binder, and the cruel punchline is that none of those emotions are real.
The blood bind rots and violates everything not pertaining to the binder, and the bound cannot help it or cannot defend themselves, allowing the binder to be as abusive as possible as well as the binder not remembering who they are or where they're from.

Just allowing all of the previous paragraph to happen, then simply allowing her to die for a petty reason...
...
I suddenly feel a kinship to the Furies. Of the "wanting to cause a slow and most painful death to all Usurpers." While it does sound good, I have no love of torturing others and of dying horribly. *sighs regretfully*

Don't get overly excited about it.

It's just my aproach to the game. All NPCs are there to entertain me, the player. It's their function and the reason why the exist. When they stop performing the function they become irrelevant.

I guess I just don't get into the characters I play as much as some of you do.

The thing is her death happens at the end of the game so the choice is "armor + death scene" vs "nothing interesting happens". There are no more interesting interactions with her after she gives you the armor. In fact, the one remaining interesting interaction with her is her death scene. It could be a different story if her kidnapping and death happened in the middle of the game and you would be chosing between armor and more dialogue. But as things stand now, when she gives me the armor she has served her function in the game.

Gods,
so much went on in this thread i feel at a loss on how to respond to it....

had i mentioned that i did choose to give her blood and hence starting the whole process over healing her with obeah and not starting it?
and, on that subject,
a suggestion to zer0morph for for example TFN 1.2.,
being able to heal her with obeah but / and still being able to retain her as ghoul, i don't know, making her show up when next she does out of gratitude, and, i don't know, having her have a first sip of blood that sends her into the path of ghoul-hood soon after....

another thing on which i am hazy about is the whole "stay inside", does that keep me from gaining the body armor, because... just when does she get caught after that stay inside, since she might have to go out to get the armor, but she must also be able to get back in order to give it to me...

was this covered in the links mentioned?

that you can get the armor from mercurio (in this mod are you sure?) is useful information, i might actually choose that option to keep her safe - if the stay inside percludes me from getting the body armor from her.

saulot...
in this issue he is a good master for the salubri i chose to play in TFN 1.1,
feel bad that in that issue i cannot rise to meet his example, i did choose to bind her in the first place and i would side with does who suggest "milking her" at the expense of having to witness her murder....

on the whole "blood bond" issue i would own up to a moral ambiguity,
somewhere between the whole depraved attitude of some, not go so far,
and saulot's condemnation as monstrous depravity, also not go so far,
and the whole it's fake, it's drug, i wouldn't quite put it that way, and even if i did i wouldn't condemn them,
let me put it this way,
drug using started as religion, drugs as entheogenics, altered states of consciousness they induced equated with communing with divine, or other analogous transcendental experiences, so, that comparison to me raises the nature of the bond, it does not demean it....

also, nuances on the how,
even while milking her i do go for the more loving dialogue options, which somehow i feel.... it kinda excuses me from the "moral" condemnation that i am using her or something....

once again...
if when i say stay inside i loose the oportunity to get from her the body armor, while if i do not she goes and gets the armor for me, balanced with the oportunity to get the body armor from mercurio....
did someone mention that that chance is later, after having to endure perilous situation when it is needed?

i might choose to play that scenario, that character and plot arc to its bitter end...



gods, you know what?
i do save her life.
there are a lot of cultures that claim that a life saved by someone is subject to be owed by the one who saves
oops, wrong way to put it, it is actually the ones saved that feel obliged to place themselves at the service of the one who does the saving, on the strength of that alone even when i save her with obeah she still should be bound to me it should be enough to set her on the path to ghoulhood, never mind that it takes a sip of blood to set her on the path of blood bond to set her on the path to ghoul-hood
also, gods the whole drugs but very strong emotions and feelings, there are so many aspects of human life that could be compared to that, for example radical sports for the adrenaline rush of death-defying, you do get much the same effect, and i could go on providing akin examples,
so in my view i only make her life more interesting, more worth living,
and even if she must pay with her life for that,
well so do practioners of radical sports occasionally do when things go wrong, to which i say they have it coming, if you must know,
or, say, professional volunteer elite troops, that know that a life is more lived when courting death, so, go into it knowing that and well don't quite mind it as the rest of us,
just to give some examples,
so that,
that she dies from it, price to pay for having made her life more worth living.....




and after that rant,
could then someone clarify,
does the stay inside keeps her from getting for me the body armor?
and just when it becomes available from mercurio?

which might be moot questions,
as i said i feel justified in following that arc to its bitter end....

I can try to clear it up.
-In vanilla or the base patch, the only chance to save her from the Sabbat is to send her away before you can get the body armor. And Heather is the only possible source for the armor.

-The plus patch has added the option to tell her "stay indoors" when she mentiones to have been followed. Then you can buy it from Mercurio, but as I said earlier, not before the Hallowbrook.

-CE keeps the option to save her by staying inside, but removed the armor from Mercurio's shop.

-In Comp Mod, no matter which version, she can be your companion, so she will never die in Hallowbrook.

-In Clan Quest it depends on what else you have installed.

-For TFN, I don't know what Zer0 has done. I haven't played it since I got distracted from beta testing for 1.1.

-

Yes, keeping her inside does deny her giving you the body armor, because she would have to go out and buy it for you to get it.

Well, it's been a while since I've actually played TFN, but if I recall correctly, Mercurio should sell it if you let Heather go, denied her to leave the Haven or cured her with Obeah from the get-go. And I believe Mercurio would sell it from between the Giovanni Mansion to before storming the Golden Temple.

And Velvet, the way I see it, it would be ok for a person to have a short term ghoul once in a while. As I said above, by healing Heather, and by extension binding her to you, you're giving her someone to love (despite the fake feelings), a safe home, and depending if you're playing as a Nossie, Malkie, or in TFN's case, a Samedi, Setite or Sally, their flaws may be a small price to pay for cheating death.

Though not explained in game, a ghoul slowly gains some physical/mental characteristics of the clan their binder is. So a Nosferatu Ghoul would get rashes, a Malkavian Ghoul would get poked in the black smudge in her head, a Samedi Ghoul may look corpse-like, a Setite Ghoul in TFN's case was not properly indoctrined into the clan, so Heather is relatively safe as long as the PC Setite doesn't get any ideas. And as for a Salubri ghoul, they may be the most untouched by being bound, due to noble blood running through their veins.

And on the topic of Salubri and ghouling, a note must be made. Since Saulot was diablarized, the entire clan, warrior, healer, maybe even antitribu if they existed back then, were scattered to the four winds. In a world based upon where social interaction is needed for survival, and being made out as demons and soul stealers, it formed a new enemy more dangerous than the Tremere and more painful than the sun. Loneliness...the thing that clings like the darkness around a light bulb and will crush it should that bulb go out. If I didn't have the oppurtunity to meet and live with Nach and Kara, I would've either gone mad or proven there was a sun a few months ago. Which is why short term ghouling, despite being a selfish act in general, would be ok, because nothing is scarier than living in the silent darkness.

He who saves a single soul saves the world.

And Velvet, because you created a topic doesn't mean you're morally inclined to respond to every post made on it. Sometimes it's better to sit back, eat some popcorn, and watch the conversation from a distance.