Political Correctness destroying US/EU?

Un-fucking-believable. In moments like these I feel like Damsel.

Jad.3 wrote:

Un-fucking-believable. In moments like these I feel like Damsel.

Yeah...

I feel like Skalter felt about Damsel. The passionate-but-not-too-smart impression...

The real question is, what do we do with people like Sally Kohn from CNN? Do we let the Tzimisce have them, or perhaps the Tremere? I'm sure Childe of Malkav could play some "games" with her...

Not Malkav! I refuse to believe some antitribu Malkie did not have her in the works already.

This appears to be the source: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/04/opinion/kohn-immigration-words/index.html

While I find "i-word" as ridiculous as you guys do, I can get behind the message she was trying to get across (the tl;dr of it being that immigrants are people too).

Of course I agree.

However, a good amount of my distaste for what is called "liberal" today is not exactly their views, for I share a lot of them , but the way that they go about in trying to uphold them: through shaming, guilt-tripping and censoring alternate views.

I think we call those people "the regressive left" nowadays and want about as much to do with them as socialists wants to with commies. Why anyone keep giving them spotlight is beyond me.

As a conservative liberal, here's one from our neighborhood:

The monster called European Union got angry with the prime minister of Slovakia for not obeying it, and ate him. Fico travels down to the stomach, where he meets Sobotka! "Oi, friend, it ate you too?"
"Oh no," smiles the prime minister of Czech Republic, "I came the other way."

Dragatus wrote:

This appears to be the source: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/04/opinion/kohn-immigration-words/index.html

While I find "i-word" as ridiculous as you guys do, I can get behind the message she was trying to get across (the tl;dr of it being that immigrants are people too).

Ja... Muslims who immigrated to Visigoth Spain were people too. It took them 600 years to return home. They call it Reconquista. Have no fear, there will be no such unprogressive thing in the future. Only Sharia could guide lazy demoralized Europeans away from deviation and sin and toward obedience to will of Allah!
Or to broken bones, as those guys in Vienna who were oh so suprised there were Sharia Police there. Extralegal, yet effective.

And to think I laughed at Houellebecq at first...

@Philo, I respect your choices, but please remember that ideas have consequences. You are far enough to be safe when the shit will go down. We are not so lucky.

@Jad: Oh so suprising display of EU's tolerance, pluralism and respect for differences. We get it all the time too.

Two morsels that fell into my hands:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/650246/Germany-bans-pork-cafes-schools-offending-Muslim-migrants

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuBysEoYtow

Who thinks Western way of life will exist in 100 years?

If I were european I would be anti-immigration, Feral, so not liberal in this topic in particular. However, as you said, it's not exactly my problem or my place to opinate(opiniate? english is hard).

Sharia in Vienna? Shit son, thing's are worse than I thought.

ThePhilosopher wrote:

If I were european I would be anti-immigration, Feral, so not liberal in this topic in particular. However, as you said, it's not exactly my problem or my place to opinate(opiniate? english is hard).

Sharia in Vienna? Shit son, thing's are worse than I thought.

You are far away, but that doesn't mean you could not have an opinion.

Why not sharia in Vienna? In Sweden and the UK there are whole sharia governed parts of cities, where governmental police and social services have nothing to go for. Except giving out the welfare payments, of course. I was shocked when one Danish MP admitted 83% of Muslims in Denmark is on governmental upkeep. And that was assessed before the wave of immigrants. And to think Mrs Merkel thinks the immigrants will solve European demographic problem and replace aging Germans as workforce...

Quote :

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/650246/Germany-bans-pork-cafes-schools-offending-Muslim-migrants

So much WOW in such little space? Is this really happening in Europe right now? Sharia Law in Denmark and Vienna? Banning German culture as to not offend their new Muslim overlords? Who has the power to invoke such a banning? Who's behind this madness?

Zer0Morph wrote:

Quote :

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/650246/Germany-bans-pork-cafes-schools-offending-Muslim-migrants

So much WOW in such little space? Is this really happening in Europe right now? Sharia Law in Denmark and Vienna? Banning German culture as to not offend their new Muslim overlords? Who has the power to invoke such a banning? Who's behind this madness?

People who are not afraid to impose their rules and beliefs. Shaming doesn't work on Muslims. If you tell them their ancestors enslaved whole populations, they will be proud: Muhammad commanded them to do it! Everything he did was good, so they will take your condemnation as praise and be very surprised and offended when you correct them...

Feral wrote:

Who thinks Western way of life will exist in 100 years?

I do.

Feral wrote:

Who thinks Western way of life will exist in 100 years?

Makes you think twice about bringing children into this world, doesn't it? Anyone ever read the book of Revelation from the bible? Scary stuff is ahead of us folks.

Keep god out of this.

Jad.3 wrote:

Keep god out of this.

Keeping God out of this is what led to all the problems in the first, but okay.

Oh really? And which god do you have in mind? The tri-god? Allah? Krishna? Ahura Mazda? Perun? Spaghetti monster? Tell me, which one? Seems to me that involving god has to do everything with the mess we're in! Just because you don't know how things work you have to create an imaginary friend -at the age of 34- and stick it into everybody's face. A god, that allows for homeless die on the street. That allows Trump to become president Oh my he allowed the Vietnam to happen! And he's losing worshippers every day, while other gods gain them. Seems your god is losing pretty bad!
Well at least you have one thing in common with the islamists: Attitude.

Religion is like penis: It is good to have it, it is good to be proud of it, but one should not whip it out in public, and definitely not stick it into children!

Zer0Morph wrote:

Jad.3 wrote:

Keep god out of this.

Keeping God out of this is what led to all the problems in the first, but okay.

Seconded. It all went down when we started to keep God out of this. Like from 1789 onwards, especially badly so in 1918 and 1968...

Only one civilization spread to change the whole world: westen one. It managed it while it was christian civilization, lost all competitive edge despite having an enormous technological and economical advantage when it became secular one. Multi-culti and totalitarian progresivism put it into agonal state by now. Now you have a homo Jew denounce tolerance and praise Inquisition... It is almost funny, to think of it. Almost.

I had a few Muslim students here and I could tell you living by their rules is not going to be preatty. Islam means submission. To the will of Allah theoreticaly, ulama in practice. There is no place of freedom or private opinion. There is no secular and sacred. All is under religion. Do you want this world, Jad? Without: what is God's give to God, what is Ceasar's, give to Ceasar? This dihotomy is inherently Christian. Islam denounces it. Judaism doesn't know it. No religion I heard of save for Christianity does. On this dihotomy our world is build.
Before you go into a naive PC rant of "religion is your private affair"go read a little. Whar given religion preaches? What is it's core idea? Maybe read the canonical texsts? Then you may have an informed opinion.
And beware: under Sharia courts such things will be punishable to do.

Ah, as for Christianity's decline: by Gospel it just means we live in the End Days. Which is odd, because we still wait for Messiah. Have we overlooked something?

I'll give my brief opinion on this: I'm with Jad in that religion is best kept to yourselves. I don't think it's specifically what has gotten us to this point we're at now, or even a big part necessairly, but it's undoubtedly playing a part somewhere along the cogs with an example being ISIS would not have existed without Islamic religion.

Now I'm officially jumping out of this topic as well; I'm not putting up with preaching religion or lack thereof between two parties who probably won't see eye to eye on it regardless of arguments.

Feral wrote:

Zer0Morph wrote:

Jad.3 wrote:

Keep god out of this.

Keeping God out of this is what led to all the problems in the first, but okay.

Seconded. It all went down when we started to keep God out of this. Like from 1789 onwards, especially badly so in 1918 and 1968...

Only one civilization spread to change the whole world: westen one. It managed it while it was christian civilization, lost all competitive edge despite having an enormous technological and economical advantage when it became secular one. Multi-culti and totalitarian progresivism put it into agonal state by now. Now you have a homo Jew denounce tolerance and praise Inquisition... It is almost funny, to think of it. Almost.

I had a few Muslim students here and I could tell you living by their rules is not going to be preatty. Islam means submission. To the will of Allah theoreticaly, ulama in practice. There is no place of freedom or private opinion. There is no secular and sacred. All is under religion. Do you want this world, Jad? Without: what is God's give to God, what is Ceasar's, give to Ceasar? This dihotomy is inherently Christian. Islam denounces it. Judaism doesn't know it. No religion I heard of save for Christianity does. On this dihotomy our world is build.
Before you go into a naive PC rant of "religion is your private affair"go read a little. Whar given religion preaches? What is it's core idea? Maybe read the canonical texsts? Then you may have an informed opinion.
And beware: under Sharia courts such things will be punishable to do.

Ah, as for Christianity's decline: by Gospel it just means we live in the End Days. Which is odd, because we still wait for Messiah. Have we overlooked something?

Sure religion is your private thing. Until you start sticking it into other people's faces.

Interestingly you mention a peridod of time when the steam engine was developed, the whole industrial revolution started and the Europe had finally become great. I don't consider 'becoming great' equal to 'spreading christianity by sword and fire;' everything that differed from the official dogma was shuned upon and destroyed. Bruno was burned for saying Earth is not flat; Hus was burned for standing up for poor people who wanted to be treated as the same as rich 'in the eyes of god.' See any similarities?
A friend of mine was a waiter somewhere in Switzerland. They did dinner for some jewish delegation. Everything done by the book (in this case Talmud). He brought food to a jew, who threw it under his feet saying 'I won't eat anything from you you filthy unbelieving pig.' See any similarities yet?
Mecca was a center of culture and science until some moron said 'We have to live literally by the book.' Quite like the European dark ages. Only they have not come out yet.
We finally got rid of one fanatics and they try to stick us with others. Because people without belief are unproductive and hard to control. And others want to bring back the good ol' times. I understand and I agree (in yo' face Kara!) that it is a crisis of faith. But why not just be moral people believing in themselves. You know, live and let live?

That being said, self-preservation is a vital part of humanity. Smiling Jack has something in common with our first president.

Karavolos wrote:

I'll give my brief opinion on this: I'm with Jad in that religion is best kept to yourselves. I don't think it's specifically what has gotten us to this point we're at now, or even a big part necessairly, but it's undoubtedly playing a part somewhere along the cogs with an example being ISIS would not have existed without Islamic religion.

Now I'm officially jumping out of this topic as well; I'm not putting up with preaching religion or lack thereof between two parties who probably won't see eye to eye on it regardless of arguments.

How did you know?
While I understand, it's a wrong move: We have a saying that 'the wiser one backs down;" to paraphrase a man much smarter than me, "that's why Europe now is ruled by idiots.
(Please someone tell him I said that.)

You touch on many interesting issues here. I agree with many.

I cannot however agree religion is a private thing. It is a root of society's values and morals. For any group of people to be functional, it's members need to share moral framework. Without shared values, there is strife and conflict as you see with immigrants: a clash of incompatibile values.
No truly multicultural society ever worked out for this exact reason: without a guiding principle, there is chaos. Ottoman Turks were the closest one to a workable model: all dhimmi were ruled and judged by their own religious law: so for example it was illegal for a Jew and a Christian to have more than one wife, while it was legal for a Jew to have concubines while the same was banned for a Christian. Multiculturalism that worked? No. In case of conflict between various communities (miliets), or those and a Muslim, sharia was applied. So there were many possible communities in one state, but rules of one of them were superior to others. It worked. Of course, while it was legal to anyone to convert to Islam, a Muslim converting to anything was executed.

Why it worked? Because there was common and enforced reference ruleset.
While I don't call Islamic courts (God forbid) I see what worked in history.

However I would like to live in a "live and let live"society, some rules are necessary. Could you imagine living in a society that doesn't offer security for property or life? I know it is extreme case, but go to Somalia and see one that exists and doesn't work rather badly. What I am trying to say here is that we need shared values parteining fundamental issues. Should murder be prohibited? Theft? On less critical issues difference could be allowed: fashion choices or sexual lives of others don't bother me as long as I am not forced to participate. I am no Khomeini to issue fatwas on how women should menstruate, or stone people for homosexuality (obviously).

That being said, I think we accentuate different things concerning European influence around the world. You see proselytism. I see the concepts of Christian morals, human dignity (a very Western concept, Christianity derived too, as we are made in Lord's image), Greek philosophy... The concept of not guilty unles found guilty, freedom of speeach, habeas corpus and all the pacage are quite unique mix brewed by confluence of ancient European philosophy (stoicism and epicureism mostly) and Christianity. Abandoning this Western framework means abandoning them too. And that is the thing that worries me, not furry conventions in the hotel next door. Those things have different gravities. We qite lost the ability to see what is important and what is not as a society, I am afraid.

Quote :

I cannot however agree religion is a private thing. It is a root of society's values and morals. For any group of people to be functional, it's members need to share moral framework. Without shared values, there is strife and conflict as you see with immigrants: a clash of incompatibile values.

It is. By choice it is made public. I agree you need shared values (and other things) for a community to thrive, it does not need to be based on religion. I consider myself moral; live and let live, freedom ends where others' begins, help if you can, yet my views of religion are disdainful. The ii's share religion; yet they bicker and fight and kill amongst themselves.

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No truly multicultural society ever worked out for this exact reason: without a guiding principle, there is chaos. Ottoman Turks were the closest one to a workable model: all dhimmi were ruled and judged by their own religious law: so for example it was illegal for a Jew and a Christian to have more than one wife, while it was legal for a Jew to have concubines while the same was banned for a Christian. Multiculturalism that worked? No. In case of conflict between various communities (miliets), or those and a Muslim, sharia was applied. So there were many possible communities in one state, but rules of one of them were superior to others. It worked. Of course, while it was legal to anyone to convert to Islam, a Muslim converting to anything was executed.

Why are you telling me this? I just see you're affraid of muslims and islam (you are right to be), you let it rule over you and want to "push the wedge block out with another wedge block."

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However I would like to live in a "live and let live"society, some rules are necessary. ...

I agree. It's called laws.

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That being said, I think we accentuate different things concerning European influence around the world. You see proselytism. I see the concepts of Christian morals, human dignity (a very Western concept, Christianity derived too, as we are made in Lord's image), Greek philosophy... The concept of not guilty unles found guilty, freedom of speeach, habeas corpus and all the pacage are quite unique mix brewed by confluence of ancient European philosophy (stoicism and epicureism mostly) and Christianity. Abandoning this Western framework means abandoning them too. And that is the thing that worries me, not furry conventions in the hotel next door. Those things have different gravities. We qite lost the ability to see what is important and what is not as a society, I am afraid.

Mate, the western way of life only exists in Europe and the States (in some way or the extreme ). The concepts you speak about never took root anywhere else. I have been to Tanzania, which is a former colony (first Germans, then the British - without those there would still be only bush), and the concept of western morals (I will not say "christian" as it would mean burning witches and killing homos) or dignity means nothing. The Greek philosophy did fine and is doing fine without christianity, obviously
I fail to see what those later concepts have to do with christianity, and think the "western framework" works quite well without it. It influenced us. It did it's part, for bad and good, and it's gone. And it should stay gone. As any other organized religion.

Jad.3 wrote:

The ii's share religion; yet they bicker and fight and kill amongst themselves.

Not quite true. Sunni and Shia with their quite different schools of Sharia, different Sufi brotherhoods, different Adat (tribal law) of various tribes... Not so shared backgroung.

Jad.3 wrote:

Why are you telling me this? I just see you're affraid of muslims and islam (you are right to be), you let it rule over you and want to "push the wedge block out with another wedge block."

It was just a demonstration of how a society without one culture might work. In effect, it is only possible through oprresion, so not live and let live, unfortunately

Jad.3 wrote:

Quote :

However I would like to live in a "live and let live"society, some rules are necessary. ...

I agree. It's called laws.

Laws are the emanation of will of the elected representatives. They could be good or bad, make sense or not. You could push everything through the voting machine with enough money and/or time. Hitler was voted in. Same was Holocaust. it was the German Reichstag who voted in the Nurenberg Act. It was Athenian Aeropag who voted for Socrates to drink poison. As long as we refuse any higher set of morals, we could make any atrocity legal.

Well, as for faith in law, ask old German Jews. They believed in it.

Jad.3 wrote:

I fail to see what those later concepts have to do with christianity, and think the "western framework" works quite well without it. It influenced us. It did it's part, for bad and good, and it's gone. And it should stay gone. As any other organized religion.

All that works were preserved, interpreted and taught by monks and priests who ran universieties and schools for centuries...? Greeks and Romans thought slavery, pedophilia and other niceties OK. It was the early Christian philosophers who opposed that. And Jews before them, but we admittedly never made such views mainstream...
I think you underestimate how Westernized the world really is. Latin America follows a more conservative version of European culture. Japan after Meiji Revolution is not West, but much closer to it than it was. India and SE Asia also imported Western science and legal systems. How deep rooted those influences are varies by region, of course, nowadays the Western culture is rather less attractive than it used to be. Well, a powerful empire with bristling economy, unrivaled science and vast military potential (British, German, French, even Russian) was a more shiny thing than now decadent, weak, alweys poorer "gejropa", as comerade Putin called it, is nowadays.
Admitedely, only Africa south of Sahara and Middle East are relatively untouched by Westernisation.

Well, to clear things up, I am not afraid of Muslims or Islam. I know of times when Europe had the moral strenght not only to be unafraid, but to conquer. To go and confront. To fight to defend itself. Unafraid it will hurt the Arab/Maguar/Viking/Mongol invaders feelings...
I am afraid of our collective weakness, not outsiders. I also recognize it is a lack of spirit, not means to act, that afflicts us.

EDIT: Ah, one more thing: I do not quite understand what makes you shun organized religion so? We all live in organized states that regulate our lives more than any religion (save for Islamic states, of course), and you seem to be OK with it. Nevermind that organisation of this states in based on some parareligious dogma anyway; be it democracy, socialism, or anything else. For the state to exist people must belive it exist, which requires a philosophical justification. If ever the majority ceses in their belief, Somalia happens.

Feral wrote:

Jad.3 wrote:

The ii's share religion; yet they bicker and fight and kill amongst themselves.

Not quite true. Sunni and Shia with their quite different schools of Sharia, different Sufi brotherhoods, different Adat (tribal law) of various tribes... Not so shared backgroung.

Catholics, protestants,...

Feral wrote:

Jad.3 wrote:

Why are you telling me this? I just see you're affraid of muslims and islam (you are right to be), you let it rule over you and want to "push the wedge block out with another wedge block."

It was just a demonstration of how a society without one culture might work. In effect, it is only possible through oprresion, so not live and let live, unfortunately

Yeah, why are you telling me this? We agree on that

Feral wrote:

Jad.3 wrote:

Quote :

However I would like to live in a "live and let live"society, some rules are necessary. ...

I agree. It's called laws.

Laws are the emanation of will of the elected representatives. They could be good or bad, make sense or not. You could push everything through the voting machine with enough money and/or time. Hitler was voted in. Same was Holocaust. it was the German Reichstag who voted in the Nurenberg Act. It was Athenian Aeropag who voted for Socrates to drink poison. As long as we refuse any higher set of morals, we could make any atrocity legal.

Well, as for faith in law, ask old German Jews. They believed in it.

So, even in the old Greece, with one culture and under one and only religion, they made bad stuff. Isn't this a wee bit different issue?
Maria Theresia was not elected. Churchill was.

Feral wrote:

Jad.3 wrote:

I fail to see what those later concepts have to do with christianity, and think the "western framework" works quite well without it. It influenced us. It did it's part, for bad and good, and it's gone. And it should stay gone. As any other organized religion.

All that works were preserved, interpreted and taught by monks and priests who ran universieties and schools for centuries...? Greeks and Romans thought slavery, pedophilia and other niceties OK. It was the early Christian philosophers who opposed that. And Jews before them, but we admittedly never made such views mainstream...
I think you underestimate how Westernized the world really is. Latin America follows a more conservative version of European culture. Japan after Meiji Revolution is not West, but much closer to it than it was. India and SE Asia also imported Western science and legal systems. How deep rooted those influences are varies by region, of course, nowadays the Western culture is rather less attractive than it used to be. Well, a powerful empire with bristling economy, unrivaled science and vast military potential (British, German, French, even Russian) was a more shiny thing than now decadent, weak, alweys poorer "gejropa", as comerade Putin called it, is nowadays.
Admitedely, only Africa south of Sahara and Middle East are relatively untouched by Westernisation.

Well, to clear things up, I am not afraid of Muslims or Islam. I know of times when Europe had the moral strenght not only to be unafraid, but to conquer. To go and confront. To fight to defend itself. Unafraid it will hurt the Arab/Maguar/Viking/Mongol invaders feelings...
I am afraid of our collective weakness, not outsiders. I also recognize it is a lack of spirit, not means to act, that afflicts us.

EDIT: Ah, one more thing: I do not quite understand what makes you shun organized religion so? We all live in organized states that regulate our lives more than any religion (save for Islamic states, of course), and you seem to be OK with it. Nevermind that organisation of this states in based on some parareligious dogma anyway; be it democracy, socialism, or anything else. For the state to exist people must belive it exist, which requires a philosophical justification. If ever the majority ceses in their belief, Somalia happens.

Would it be ok with you if those preservers weren't christians? But Buddhists? Or nonbelievers? Everyone here was christian at the time. And the possibility of working with knowledge drew in certain kind of people.
Have you put pedophilia and christianity in one paragraph? Seriously?
No, you overestimate the influence. Here you're really wrong. Where the 'west' went, there it built, organised. When it left, people did not just tear the buildings down and went back to huts, because it gave them access to luxury. We are lazy. But without the whip, they weren't able to improve much, they mostly became their old selves. As s-S Africa goes, I gave you an example of a country where the influence was vast. Think of the rest when the Indian 'doctor' wipes his ass with his hand and then goes pulling teeth in the street.

Believe in your gods if you will. Remember though it's you who gets the PhD. And believe that we can get outta this safely when the European neomarxist quazi-utopian empire falls. And do it right this time.

@edit: OR is only used for power and control. As is the money slavery now. I am not ok with it, I'm idealist.